Spaceman you lost ANY willingness on my part to discuss things in a open manner the minute you called me a troll. That showed me you didn't want to discuss, you just wanted to win. So I guess if you don't like name calling you shouldn't have casted the first stone. For those of you who missed this part SPACEMAN-SPIFF sent me a private message to stop trolling because I didn't agree with his point of view. You know, the same way he accused BRussell of policing his posts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference being that BRussell acknowledged what he was doing.
You know what sjpsu, you can not insite me with an i know more than you attitude nor will your kind ever intimidate anyone. So you loss out on all points and without defense fall back to "i can not understand what your saying because it does not fit into my tiny view of the world around me" and call it "irrelevant". Thankfully the irrelevance falls into the "this board won't make a bit of difference in the world" category.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation.
I would like to say that i am appalled by the lack of morality among these posts. You people should be ashamed of your utter lack ofvalues and common decency. Thank you
The thing that some of you seem to have forgotten is that unless you are an American Indian you come from roots that started in another country. You have in effect forgotten what this country is all about. The mixture of different cultures to make something better.
We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them. The very title of this thread can be taken by others as threatening. Do you think that we are better, more right than other countries? If you do you are arrogant. The US has only stood for a little over 200 years. A minor historical footnote by comparison to other cultures.
A side note is that any action taken by another group or country such as what happened on September 11th is deplorable and unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that everyone out there thinks like that.
The Roman empire stood for more than 2000 years and despite the bad press was the closest thing to civilization at that time. Where they failed was arrogance which led to decadence. I'm sure they felt they were the " best " even as the Visagoths came charging over the seven hills of Rome.
As you can see might doesn't always make right. Or even mean that something is going to last forever.
Right now we are the big kid on the block. As I've said before with that comes great responsibility. Part of that is understanding that these other countries are made up of humans just like ourselves. All this constant flag waving and chest beating accomplishes nothing other than earning the disrespect of others.
I know to some it's unthinkable that the US might not even exist a few hundred years from now. but, it's a real possibility if we follow this backward way of thinking. If you want us to make a difference and live up to our potential we can't think of ourselves as superior. We're fools if we do.
Better to think of ourselves as leaders working with the other countries in understanding. But, we can't forget our mistakes. The fact that we raped the culture that was already here in the beginning is one of them.
The minute you start thinking in terms of better or " Master Race " you start down that path that so many have followed before. The next time you start beating your chest and you swell with national pride I suggest you also consider these things.
We have a chance to really make something better but, we won't do that by insulting others or refusing to acknowledge their contributions.
If you want, you have to learn to " think outside the box ". A concept that many of you might be familiar with.
There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective. History awaits ( as always ) the choice is ours.
You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please make a point that has more than one narrow unrefined view of the world in it and i will back off of you. Also try to read what is written so that you can comprehend, or at least recognize another side of it. At any point where you would like to comprehend it ask. I believe i can speak in terms more related to your ideaologies so that it fits.
jimmac you can defend his ideas with real reason, but do not try to defend the arrogance of his ignorance. (spjsu you can read that as "you are so blinded by your own supposed wit and cleverness that you fail to see the truth")
My points have all been in counter to yours sjpus. Not because i think i make a splendid debate team captain but to push other ideas into that narrow view of yours. Calling them irrelevant proves what i am saying. Saying you have a hard time reading what i write so it must not be comprehensible is a fools bid to avoid the alternative.
Otherwise you'd see that i do have something to say <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
jimamc, i think alot of what you said is on target. It's a conservative look at what needs to be done and conveys the concept of all things in moderation well.
However i have to take a few points with a different spin.
The first is the statement about constant flag waving. Extremists fail at reason, and for the most part that's why it goes to there heads. The real truth about the majority is a lack of caring. They are not interested in these things let alone arrogant in their pride. I don't think the first statement was made by an extremist, i think he wanted instead to make a point about something he cared about. In alot of cases, and to the detriment of the USA, people would ignore a less vehement statement. They want dirty laundry. They can take the idea of national pride or leave it so there needs to be some flag waving to put the idea of it back into the hardened heads of a nation with glazed over eyes and hands free cell phones.
The next is what we are doing i believe. However it got out of hand when technology brought crossing the ocean without a lot of difficulty within reach. We became the world police, and that was a mistake. I believe as SWB put it so well, we should push democracy on those around us. Not American citizenship democracy. I also believe in the global economy that exists today, with rogues nations like iraq that are out there and armed, we'll need to protect our interests and we should.
I do not see the better or master race theory at work here. I think that would consitute an idea that we all agree on being propagated by a deft leader to enpower us against a single nation or culture. That hasn't happened or been a real point of news worthiness in our country. Even the arabic culture is not resoundingly under attack after an incident that could have polarized us all into undertaking a miscarrage of justice. Does that polarization exist in other nations as SWB asked in his title? I believe it does, i think here cooler heads prevail.
The fourth i added because i think it is so well said. Everyone has a part to play and acknowledging the other side is a good way to find a reasonable jump off point.
The last didn't need the perspective, see my first one
My statement was in part in response to some of the attitudes displayed here.
Such as : " Here's mine:
Dear nations that hate us:
FOAD
Thank you ".
And there is this one : " I did say I think we are the "best" nation ".
As I've said " There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective ".
Perhaps you don't need the perspective but, I believe others do. Excessive flag waving as can happen in an emotionally charged crisis like this can lead to some of the other attitudes I've read here. My comments weren't aimed at just you.
Your examples are ridiculous. I read each one, and it obvious to anyone with a brain that the sources are totally biased. In addition, many of them are blatant opinion pieces. "The Council for a Livable World"????
You didn't REALLY think I would let that one go, did you? Get some actual, real, mainstream sources. At least their criminal liberal bias is a bit more concealed. I actually laughed out loud when I read some of your "documentation".
[quote]In the former statement, you opine that they do not violate separation of church and state. While in the latter statement, you state that they do not violate the separation of church and state and further clarify your opinion in commenting on whether or not you like the program.
The latter statement is certainly different than original one. The distinction lies where in the former statement you base an argument on personal judgement, or opinion, while in the latter one you state it like it is based on fact. (Although, you did not support it at all) <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> Whatever. I don't see why it matters. Even the Supreme Court expresses opinions, it is just that they are more qualified than we are. I'm not going to argue this rather mundane point any further.
[quote]Substantively, please. "Your arguments are weak" personally attacks him and contributes nothing to discussion. However, if you said "This is why your arguments are weak" and go on to explain why in the context of the issue, then you can get away with a little personal nudges here and there. <hr></blockquote>
What? I was merely stating that he WAS attacking the ARGUMENTS, not the person. Once again, you love to debate things that have very little to do with the point. It WASN'T ME STATING IT.
[quote]You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation. <hr></blockquote>
I know that wasn't directed at me, but once again your passion for attacking things that don't matter stands out.
jimmac writes:
[quote]Do you think that we are better, more right than other countries? If you do you are arrogant. <hr></blockquote>
Yes. Better than those who hate democracy and have no freedoms. Absolutely.
[quote]The Roman empire stood for more than 2000 years and despite the bad press was the closest thing to civilization at that time. Where they failed was arrogance which led to decadence. I'm sure they felt they were the " best " even as the Visagoths came charging over the seven hills of Rome. <hr></blockquote>
We are not Rome. But point taken.
[quote]I know to some it's unthinkable that the US might not even exist a few hundred years from now. but, it's a real possibility if we follow this backward way of thinking. If you want us to make a difference and live up to our potential we can't think of ourselves as superior. You're fools if you do. <hr></blockquote>
Again, I see your point here. (And, I unfortunately think it is quite possible we won't exist in 200 years). But I don't agree that my statement falls into "this backward way of thinking". I merely suggested (in what was suppsoed to be a fairly humorous way) that these nations that have zero freedoms, zero economic development, etc, try things "our way". By "our way" I meant modern democracy, which, with the exception of ancient Greece, we invented (though their's was quite different). You can't tell me this is an unthinkable concept. What they (the nations I was referencing) are doing is obviously not working.
[quote]The fact that we raped the culture that was already here in the beginning is one of them. <hr></blockquote>
What do you want to do about this? Did we PERSONALLY do it? Or, are you in favor of reparations? If you are merely stating we should remember and learn from it, I can deal with that.
[quote]The minute you start thinking in terms of better or " Master Race " you start down that path that so many have followed before. <hr></blockquote>
No one even came close to going that far. Saying that one believes his nation to be "the best" isn't the same thing. You have overreached a bit here, I think.
[quote]There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective. History awaits ( as always ) the choice is ours. <hr></blockquote>
Agreed. I still think some of you missed the point of my original statement though.
<strong>My statement was in part in response to some of the attitudes displayed here.
Such as : " Here's mine:
Dear nations that hate us:
FOAD
Thank you ".
And there is this one : " I did say I think we are the "best" nation ".
As I've said " There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective ".
Perhaps you don't need the perspective but, I believe others do. Excessive flag waving as can happen in an emotionally charged crisis like this can lead to some of the other attitudes I've read here. My comments weren't aimed at just you.
The statement about being the best nation is one of those ideas that needs to be put forth in my opinion. It's difficult to be part of a group and not feel that you and your group are the best. It's competative, but a little competition in moderation is good. There's a quandry for me in "I believe in it but something else (this is in terms of nations or ideas as a whole not boiled down to one lonesome idea or amendment) is better" so i think yes it's fine to say "we're the best" it's not fine to say "we're the best, we're getting our artillery together, and soon you'll be among the best."
Democracy is not the creeping red giant of communism, it can't be (i'll get to this point later, don't read it as a denial). Yes we both spread our ideas when opportunity arises, we both want the nations in the world to see it our way. But we have not done anything involving an expansionist policy outside the US that i can think of in a combative manner to seize control. What we have provided is some freedom. I need to do a bit of research so no direct evidence right now. But the freedom we provided has allowed countries to elect away their freedom once they became stable enough to vote. Communism on the other hand does not allow for that and once they gain a foot hold it endangers our way of life and takes away the rights of the nation they over come. Please try not to fall into the idea of communism being the only other opposition. Read it as dictator, warlord, or socialist as it best fits your view of the bad guys
This started as my statement of not being suprised that you agree, you have fleshed out ideas that do not hold to single sided ideals or political bias without ethics and morals. So nope i'm not surprised you agree
Apologies SDW, i think you make some very good points. Better still, they fit my political bent
The statement about being the best nation is one of those ideas that needs to be put forth in my opinion...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a large part of the appeal of the World Cup. Lot of nationalism going on there. It's okay as far as I'm concerned. I was in favor of Bejing getting the Olympics for a similar reason. It's a better outlet for the sometimes hyper-nationalism that you see in China these days.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> bring what ever it is you have to the table and let's see who's ahead or behind and will be
<strong>Well, actually, its SDW. But whatever.....
Now I'm back, and here we go again.
sjpsu:
Your examples are ridiculous. I read each one, and it obvious to anyone with a brain that the sources are totally biased. In addition, many of them are blatant opinion pieces. "The Council for a Livable World"????
You didn't REALLY think I would let that one go, did you? Get some actual, real, mainstream sources. I actually laughed out loud when I read some of your "documentation".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The CLW posted facts. There's nothing disputable about two relatively difficult to spin numbers. I'm surprised you have taken issue with Rich Lowry from the National Review. Do you know who he is? That is the editor to a conservative paper and frequent guest on MSNBC/CNN. I also included the Christian Science Monitor. Surely, you do not believe they are a group of "progressives?" Anyway, I thoroughly refuted your point. Concede.
Oh, and a common debating tactic is to label anything an opinion. You must have learned from watching Bill O'Reilly.
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
Whatever. I don't see why it matters. Even the Supreme Court expresses opinions, it is just that they are more qualified than we are. I'm not going to argue this rather mundane point any further.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. You lost the argument so it doesn't really matter. You're about as transparent as a Powerbook screen turned all the way up.
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
At least their criminal liberal bias is a bit more concealed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no liberal bias in the media. That is a fallacy in the guise of FOX NEWS' conservative fare.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> bring what ever it is you have to the table and let's see who's ahead or behind and will be</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> so you concede?
Give me one instance where a conservative has said:
"don't help the needy".
Don't make it black and white, give it your best go at understanding what is being said and make a point for liberalism that is also not black and white and refutes the claims made. Try to put facts to the backing of the liberal claim. Not opinions based on kind hearted over optimistic views based on utopia.
America: personally I love it. The imperialist bastards.
Complex, beautiful, ugly, hypocritical, visionary, rich, poor, arrogant, self-critical, very very very dangerous, a people that are incredibly free, a people that don't realise how imprisoned they are, kind, open hearted, vicious, close minded, creative, destructive ...
But "best"?
SDW should thank "those nations that hate the US" because they've enabled a climate where the government can intern its *own citizens* indefinitely and without recourse to transparent justice ... a precedent that would scare the shît out of me (cf Cuba, Russia, Axis of Evil) but with which his country's more then comfortable.
<strong>America: personally I love it. The imperialist bastards.
Complex, beautiful, ugly, hypocritical, visionary, rich, poor, arrogant, self-critical, very very very dangerous, a people that are incredibly free, a people that don't realise how imprisoned they are, kind, open hearted, vicious, close minded, creative, destructive ...
But "best"?
SDW should thank "those nations that hate the US" because they've enabled a climate where the government can intern its *own citizens* indefinitely and without recourse to transparent justice ... a precedent that would scare the shît out of me (cf Cuba, Russia, Axis of Evil) but with which his country's more then comfortable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>
Spaceman you lost ANY willingness on my part to discuss things in a open manner the minute you called me a troll. That showed me you didn't want to discuss, you just wanted to win. So I guess if you don't like name calling you shouldn't have casted the first stone. For those of you who missed this part SPACEMAN-SPIFF sent me a private message to stop trolling because I didn't agree with his point of view. You know, the same way he accused BRussell of policing his posts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference being that BRussell acknowledged what he was doing.
<strong>
You know what sjpsu, you can not insite me with an i know more than you attitude nor will your kind ever intimidate anyone. So you loss out on all points and without defense fall back to "i can not understand what your saying because it does not fit into my tiny view of the world around me" and call it "irrelevant". Thankfully the irrelevance falls into the "this board won't make a bit of difference in the world" category.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation.
I would like to say that i am appalled by the lack of morality among these posts. You people should be ashamed of your utter lack ofvalues and common decency. Thank you
We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them. The very title of this thread can be taken by others as threatening. Do you think that we are better, more right than other countries? If you do you are arrogant. The US has only stood for a little over 200 years. A minor historical footnote by comparison to other cultures.
A side note is that any action taken by another group or country such as what happened on September 11th is deplorable and unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that everyone out there thinks like that.
The Roman empire stood for more than 2000 years and despite the bad press was the closest thing to civilization at that time. Where they failed was arrogance which led to decadence. I'm sure they felt they were the " best " even as the Visagoths came charging over the seven hills of Rome.
As you can see might doesn't always make right. Or even mean that something is going to last forever.
Right now we are the big kid on the block. As I've said before with that comes great responsibility. Part of that is understanding that these other countries are made up of humans just like ourselves. All this constant flag waving and chest beating accomplishes nothing other than earning the disrespect of others.
I know to some it's unthinkable that the US might not even exist a few hundred years from now. but, it's a real possibility if we follow this backward way of thinking. If you want us to make a difference and live up to our potential we can't think of ourselves as superior. We're fools if we do.
Better to think of ourselves as leaders working with the other countries in understanding. But, we can't forget our mistakes. The fact that we raped the culture that was already here in the beginning is one of them.
The minute you start thinking in terms of better or " Master Race " you start down that path that so many have followed before. The next time you start beating your chest and you swell with national pride I suggest you also consider these things.
We have a chance to really make something better but, we won't do that by insulting others or refusing to acknowledge their contributions.
If you want, you have to learn to " think outside the box ". A concept that many of you might be familiar with.
There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective. History awaits ( as always ) the choice is ours.
That's " my statement ".
[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>
You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please make a point that has more than one narrow unrefined view of the world in it and i will back off of you. Also try to read what is written so that you can comprehend, or at least recognize another side of it. At any point where you would like to comprehend it ask. I believe i can speak in terms more related to your ideaologies so that it fits.
jimmac you can defend his ideas with real reason, but do not try to defend the arrogance of his ignorance. (spjsu you can read that as "you are so blinded by your own supposed wit and cleverness that you fail to see the truth")
My points have all been in counter to yours sjpus. Not because i think i make a splendid debate team captain but to push other ideas into that narrow view of yours. Calling them irrelevant proves what i am saying. Saying you have a hard time reading what i write so it must not be comprehensible is a fools bid to avoid the alternative.
Otherwise you'd see that i do have something to say <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>The...
... All this constant flag waving and chest beating accomplishes nothing other than earning the disrespect of others.
...Better to think of ourselves as leaders working with the other countries in understanding.
...The minute you start thinking in terms of better or " Master Race " ...
...We have a chance to really make something better but, we won't do that by insulting others or refusing to acknowledge their contributions.
There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective.
That's " my statement ".
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong>[/QUOTE]
jimamc, i think alot of what you said is on target. It's a conservative look at what needs to be done and conveys the concept of all things in moderation well.
However i have to take a few points with a different spin.
The first is the statement about constant flag waving. Extremists fail at reason, and for the most part that's why it goes to there heads. The real truth about the majority is a lack of caring. They are not interested in these things let alone arrogant in their pride. I don't think the first statement was made by an extremist, i think he wanted instead to make a point about something he cared about. In alot of cases, and to the detriment of the USA, people would ignore a less vehement statement. They want dirty laundry. They can take the idea of national pride or leave it so there needs to be some flag waving to put the idea of it back into the hardened heads of a nation with glazed over eyes and hands free cell phones.
The next is what we are doing i believe. However it got out of hand when technology brought crossing the ocean without a lot of difficulty within reach. We became the world police, and that was a mistake. I believe as SWB put it so well, we should push democracy on those around us. Not American citizenship democracy. I also believe in the global economy that exists today, with rogues nations like iraq that are out there and armed, we'll need to protect our interests and we should.
I do not see the better or master race theory at work here. I think that would consitute an idea that we all agree on being propagated by a deft leader to enpower us against a single nation or culture. That hasn't happened or been a real point of news worthiness in our country. Even the arabic culture is not resoundingly under attack after an incident that could have polarized us all into undertaking a miscarrage of justice. Does that polarization exist in other nations as SWB asked in his title? I believe it does, i think here cooler heads prevail.
The fourth i added because i think it is so well said. Everyone has a part to play and acknowledging the other side is a good way to find a reasonable jump off point.
The last didn't need the perspective, see my first one
i won't go into what i disagree with
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: Ruhx ]</p>
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: Ruhx ]</p>
My statement was in part in response to some of the attitudes displayed here.
Such as : " Here's mine:
Dear nations that hate us:
FOAD
Thank you ".
And there is this one : " I did say I think we are the "best" nation ".
As I've said " There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective ".
Perhaps you don't need the perspective but, I believe others do. Excessive flag waving as can happen in an emotionally charged crisis like this can lead to some of the other attitudes I've read here. My comments weren't aimed at just you.
Otherwise ( and this might surprise you ) agreed.
By the way I believe it's SWD.
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
Now I'm back, and here we go again.
sjpsu:
Your examples are ridiculous. I read each one, and it obvious to anyone with a brain that the sources are totally biased. In addition, many of them are blatant opinion pieces. "The Council for a Livable World"????
You didn't REALLY think I would let that one go, did you? Get some actual, real, mainstream sources. At least their criminal liberal bias is a bit more concealed. I actually laughed out loud when I read some of your "documentation".
[quote]In the former statement, you opine that they do not violate separation of church and state. While in the latter statement, you state that they do not violate the separation of church and state and further clarify your opinion in commenting on whether or not you like the program.
The latter statement is certainly different than original one. The distinction lies where in the former statement you base an argument on personal judgement, or opinion, while in the latter one you state it like it is based on fact. (Although, you did not support it at all) <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> Whatever. I don't see why it matters. Even the Supreme Court expresses opinions, it is just that they are more qualified than we are. I'm not going to argue this rather mundane point any further.
[quote]Substantively, please. "Your arguments are weak" personally attacks him and contributes nothing to discussion. However, if you said "This is why your arguments are weak" and go on to explain why in the context of the issue, then you can get away with a little personal nudges here and there. <hr></blockquote>
What? I was merely stating that he WAS attacking the ARGUMENTS, not the person. Once again, you love to debate things that have very little to do with the point. It WASN'T ME STATING IT.
[quote]You really have nothing to say. At least, say it comprehensibly and with punctuation. <hr></blockquote>
I know that wasn't directed at me, but once again your passion for attacking things that don't matter stands out.
jimmac writes:
[quote]Do you think that we are better, more right than other countries? If you do you are arrogant. <hr></blockquote>
Yes. Better than those who hate democracy and have no freedoms. Absolutely.
[quote]The Roman empire stood for more than 2000 years and despite the bad press was the closest thing to civilization at that time. Where they failed was arrogance which led to decadence. I'm sure they felt they were the " best " even as the Visagoths came charging over the seven hills of Rome. <hr></blockquote>
We are not Rome. But point taken.
[quote]I know to some it's unthinkable that the US might not even exist a few hundred years from now. but, it's a real possibility if we follow this backward way of thinking. If you want us to make a difference and live up to our potential we can't think of ourselves as superior. You're fools if you do. <hr></blockquote>
Again, I see your point here. (And, I unfortunately think it is quite possible we won't exist in 200 years). But I don't agree that my statement falls into "this backward way of thinking". I merely suggested (in what was suppsoed to be a fairly humorous way) that these nations that have zero freedoms, zero economic development, etc, try things "our way". By "our way" I meant modern democracy, which, with the exception of ancient Greece, we invented (though their's was quite different). You can't tell me this is an unthinkable concept. What they (the nations I was referencing) are doing is obviously not working.
[quote]The fact that we raped the culture that was already here in the beginning is one of them. <hr></blockquote>
What do you want to do about this? Did we PERSONALLY do it? Or, are you in favor of reparations? If you are merely stating we should remember and learn from it, I can deal with that.
[quote]The minute you start thinking in terms of better or " Master Race " you start down that path that so many have followed before. <hr></blockquote>
No one even came close to going that far. Saying that one believes his nation to be "the best" isn't the same thing. You have overreached a bit here, I think.
[quote]There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective. History awaits ( as always ) the choice is ours. <hr></blockquote>
Agreed. I still think some of you missed the point of my original statement though.
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: Ruhx ]</p>
<strong>My statement was in part in response to some of the attitudes displayed here.
Such as : " Here's mine:
Dear nations that hate us:
FOAD
Thank you ".
And there is this one : " I did say I think we are the "best" nation ".
As I've said " There's nothing wrong with being proud to be an American but, it also must be put into perspective ".
Perhaps you don't need the perspective but, I believe others do. Excessive flag waving as can happen in an emotionally charged crisis like this can lead to some of the other attitudes I've read here. My comments weren't aimed at just you.
Otherwise ( and this might surprise you ) agreed.
By the way I believe it's SWD.
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
The statement about being the best nation is one of those ideas that needs to be put forth in my opinion. It's difficult to be part of a group and not feel that you and your group are the best. It's competative, but a little competition in moderation is good. There's a quandry for me in "I believe in it but something else (this is in terms of nations or ideas as a whole not boiled down to one lonesome idea or amendment) is better" so i think yes it's fine to say "we're the best" it's not fine to say "we're the best, we're getting our artillery together, and soon you'll be among the best."
Democracy is not the creeping red giant of communism, it can't be (i'll get to this point later, don't read it as a denial). Yes we both spread our ideas when opportunity arises, we both want the nations in the world to see it our way. But we have not done anything involving an expansionist policy outside the US that i can think of in a combative manner to seize control. What we have provided is some freedom. I need to do a bit of research so no direct evidence right now. But the freedom we provided has allowed countries to elect away their freedom once they became stable enough to vote. Communism on the other hand does not allow for that and once they gain a foot hold it endangers our way of life and takes away the rights of the nation they over come. Please try not to fall into the idea of communism being the only other opposition. Read it as dictator, warlord, or socialist as it best fits your view of the bad guys
This started as my statement of not being suprised that you agree, you have fleshed out ideas that do not hold to single sided ideals or political bias without ethics and morals. So nope i'm not surprised you agree
Apologies SDW, i think you make some very good points. Better still, they fit my political bent
<strong>
The statement about being the best nation is one of those ideas that needs to be put forth in my opinion...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a large part of the appeal of the World Cup. Lot of nationalism going on there. It's okay as far as I'm concerned. I was in favor of Bejing getting the Olympics for a similar reason. It's a better outlet for the sometimes hyper-nationalism that you see in China these days.
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
<strong>Ruhx, quit while you're ahead. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> bring what ever it is you have to the table and let's see who's ahead or behind and will be
<strong>Well, actually, its SDW. But whatever.....
Now I'm back, and here we go again.
sjpsu:
Your examples are ridiculous. I read each one, and it obvious to anyone with a brain that the sources are totally biased. In addition, many of them are blatant opinion pieces. "The Council for a Livable World"????
You didn't REALLY think I would let that one go, did you? Get some actual, real, mainstream sources. I actually laughed out loud when I read some of your "documentation".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The CLW posted facts. There's nothing disputable about two relatively difficult to spin numbers. I'm surprised you have taken issue with Rich Lowry from the National Review. Do you know who he is? That is the editor to a conservative paper and frequent guest on MSNBC/CNN. I also included the Christian Science Monitor. Surely, you do not believe they are a group of "progressives?" Anyway, I thoroughly refuted your point. Concede.
Oh, and a common debating tactic is to label anything an opinion. You must have learned from watching Bill O'Reilly.
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
Whatever. I don't see why it matters. Even the Supreme Court expresses opinions, it is just that they are more qualified than we are. I'm not going to argue this rather mundane point any further.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>
At least their criminal liberal bias is a bit more concealed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no liberal bias in the media. That is a fallacy in the guise of FOX NEWS' conservative fare.
<a href="http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/fox-main.html"; target="_blank">The Most Biased Name in News: Fox News Channel</a>
<a href="http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/sources.html"; target="_blank">Fox's Slanted Sources</a>
<a href="http://www.fair.org/extra/0205/oh_really.html"; target="_blank">The "Oh Really?" Factor: Bill O'Reilly Spins...</a>
<a href="http://www.fair.org/extra/0111/patriotism-and-censorship.html#sidebar"; target="_blank">Patriotism and Censorship</a>
<a href="http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/oreilly.html"; target="_blank">Bill O'Reilly's Sheer O'Reillyness: Don't Call Him Conservatie But He Is</a>
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: sjpsu ]
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: sjpsu ]</p>
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> bring what ever it is you have to the table and let's see who's ahead or behind and will be</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: sjpsu ]</p>
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> so you concede?
Give me one instance where a conservative has said:
"don't help the needy".
Don't make it black and white, give it your best go at understanding what is being said and make a point for liberalism that is also not black and white and refutes the claims made. Try to put facts to the backing of the liberal claim. Not opinions based on kind hearted over optimistic views based on utopia.
Complex, beautiful, ugly, hypocritical, visionary, rich, poor, arrogant, self-critical, very very very dangerous, a people that are incredibly free, a people that don't realise how imprisoned they are, kind, open hearted, vicious, close minded, creative, destructive ...
But "best"?
SDW should thank "those nations that hate the US" because they've enabled a climate where the government can intern its *own citizens* indefinitely and without recourse to transparent justice ... a precedent that would scare the shît out of me (cf Cuba, Russia, Axis of Evil) but with which his country's more then comfortable.
[ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: sjpsu ]</p>
<strong>America: personally I love it. The imperialist bastards.
Complex, beautiful, ugly, hypocritical, visionary, rich, poor, arrogant, self-critical, very very very dangerous, a people that are incredibly free, a people that don't realise how imprisoned they are, kind, open hearted, vicious, close minded, creative, destructive ...
But "best"?
SDW should thank "those nations that hate the US" because they've enabled a climate where the government can intern its *own citizens* indefinitely and without recourse to transparent justice ... a precedent that would scare the shît out of me (cf Cuba, Russia, Axis of Evil) but with which his country's more then comfortable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />