<strong>What's the cost per mile to run it? If it's more then it will fail. No ones going to buy a car that cost them more money on "gas".</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> If only that were true...
I live in a town where most teenagers are given an SUV on their 16th birthday to drive all 3-10 miles to their high school. Well, they also go to malls, hang out at restaurants, and drive 80Mph on freeways. :eek: A typical fill-up is well over $50, but that doesn't matter with mom's credit card.
PS: I drive a Mit. Eclipse, which doesn't have enough mass to push these a$$holes off the road. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.
Ozone is beneficial only when it is in the Stratoshere. . . . but when it is produced near the planet (in the Troposphere) it remains here and is very destructive to the environment, especially when it mixes with other gases released in combustion fuel emmisions.
nice try though . . .
(too much lobbyist's news and not enough real science i guess)
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>
why not. it's very nice.
personally, I like the insight too. can get a 2000 manual transmission model for arund 9500 now and get 70mpg
The US currently devotes about 80 million acres to corn production, yielding about 10 billion bushels. About 620 million bushels are devoted to ethanol production, yielding 2 million gallons per year. (Note that the octane is above 130, which means it burns slowly, but does not reflect the energy content of the fuel.)
The annual gasoline sales in the US (all grades combined) is about 130 billion gallons.
The energy required to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen from the distillation of water is about 4.5 kW-h, yeilding less than 4 kW-h when burned in a fuel cell. 4.5 kW-h is the amount produced by 45 average size photovoltaic panels on a good day (in an area with a good amount of sunlight). (How much is your daily electrical usage?) These photovoltaic panels would cover approximately 400 cubic feet.
The big problem with CNG or Hydrogen as alternative fuels is safety. And one of the biggest safety issues would be refueling. You have to be able to dispense these fuels into the car safely. Say goodbye to self serve stations. You would need well-trained attendants to fuel your car. I'm okay with this but I just don't know. There are a lot of drunks and stupid people in the world. Would it be possible to keep them out of the fueling loop?
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>I bought my Civic in 1996, and even though it was a "regular" car, it met some low-emission standard that they had previously thought only electrics or hybrids would be able to meet.
<strong>The big problem with CNG or Hydrogen as alternative fuels is safety. And one of the biggest safety issues would be refueling. You have to be able to dispense these fuels into the car safely. Say goodbye to self serve stations. You would need well-trained attendants to fuel your car. I'm okay with this but I just don't know. There are a lot of drunks and stupid people in the world. Would it be possible to keep them out of the fueling loop?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Naw I don't buy it. They can idiot proof almost anything these days. One standard connector that does not turn on unless a good seal is detected. It can be done.
Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.
Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good point about the hypocrites. I really don't care what car people drive but I can't stand those all-talk Liberals who preach environmentalism and drive an Excursion. Same goes for the "tree-huggers" that drive a VW Bus.
[quote] all-talk Liberals who preach environmentalism and drive an Excursion <hr></blockquote>You say this like its common . . . and I know that it is not. and the article quotes is just plain harping on something stupid... these people got a large group togather and rented a van . . not an SUV . . . let it rest its stupid.
and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,
<strong>You say this like its common . . . and I know that it is not. and the article quotes is just plain harping on something stupid... these people got a large group togather and rented a van . . not an SUV . . . let it rest its stupid.
and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,
Ok. First of all, I never told artman to die. That would just be plain wrong. And for your info, I go to a VERY liberal school and have seen FIRST HAND the cars these people drive. Land Cruiser, Excursion, Suburban, Escalade, etc. So don't tell me what I know and what I don't know. I also happen to have a family friend that is a huge tree-hugger and he DOES drive a VW Bus. You CAN'T tell me he's the only one.
Oh and by the way, head size has nothing to do with intelligence. That has been proved. And just for the record though, my hat size is 7 5/8.
Buying more fuel efficient cars can't be that good for the environment when we do it every 3-4 years.
If a person buys/leases a new car every 4 years they will own a dozen or more cars in their lifetime. What's the total environmental cost of producing these vehicles and scrapping/recycling the older ones?
We might be better off (environmentally speaking) if everyone bought 2-3 cars in their lifetime and kept them each in good working order for 10-15 years each.
Environmentalism is being turned into just another consumerist marketing ploy.
I really don't think so. First of all, my own family hands down old cars to other people. Second, I don't imagine it takes that much electricity or diesel to compact and scrap a car. Just think about it...a sip of gas produces the same amount of energy in the form of a massive car crash.
So, recap.
1) Old cars often stay in circulation, meaning the choice of a new car is between a fuel sipper or an ultra-economical-sipper.
2) It definitely doesn't take much juice to scrap old cars.
P.S. Some of these old cars include an old Mercedes-Benz 300SD and 300TD. Massive diesel machines that get about 20 MPG...diesel is a bigger pollutant than gasoline though. And older cars have much worse emissions.
Not just scrapping the old car, but building the new ones too. Sorry, maybe I forgot to mention that.
Yes, older cars move down through the channel of cars, but the environment would still be better off if we bought less vehicles (in total) throughout our lives.
The used car buyer still buys too many cars in his/her motoring life. The new car buyers/leasers are still flooding the market with cheap used cars and the environmental costs of mass production are staggering. If new car buyers bought less cars (total) and kept them in good working order, used car buyers would also have less cheap cars to choose from, they would buy a few more new cars (and keep them longer), but still, for the most part, buy used cars (just less often, and later).
REDUCE, RE-USE, RECYCLE.
We're Okay at the last two, but we're not very good at all at the first.
HOWEVER, this would have MAJOR economic ramifications for which we are totally unprepared. I think we will come to this naturally (but never completely, just mildly) as cars get better and better and just last longer. Quality may end up reducing our vehicle spending simply because there's no need to buy a new car every 3-7 years. Consumerists will ALWAYS want a new toy, though.
The driving force of technology is demand. If people only bought 2 or 3 cars per lifetime then we'd have a lot of diesel puffers out there. We'd be lagging behind in technology, while still pushing cars down the assembly line. I still think the sum of all energy required to put a new fuel efficient car into somebody's driveway is less than that used up by an old clunker... (not even taking emissions and stuff.) I don't think I'd want my uncle to keep driving his old F-350 pick-up...it runs on leaded gasoline...which needs lead additive...
Comments
<strong>What's the cost per mile to run it? If it's more then it will fail. No ones going to buy a car that cost them more money on "gas".</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> If only that were true...
I live in a town where most teenagers are given an SUV on their 16th birthday to drive all 3-10 miles to their high school. Well, they also go to malls, hang out at restaurants, and drive 80Mph on freeways. :eek: A typical fill-up is well over $50, but that doesn't matter with mom's credit card.
PS: I drive a Mit. Eclipse, which doesn't have enough mass to push these a$$holes off the road. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
(Just joking)
[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Ebby ]</p>
nice try though . . .
(too much lobbyist's news and not enough real science i guess)
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>
why not. it's very nice.
personally, I like the insight too. can get a 2000 manual transmission model for arund 9500 now and get 70mpg
The US currently devotes about 80 million acres to corn production, yielding about 10 billion bushels. About 620 million bushels are devoted to ethanol production, yielding 2 million gallons per year. (Note that the octane is above 130, which means it burns slowly, but does not reflect the energy content of the fuel.)
The annual gasoline sales in the US (all grades combined) is about 130 billion gallons.
The energy required to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen from the distillation of water is about 4.5 kW-h, yeilding less than 4 kW-h when burned in a fuel cell. 4.5 kW-h is the amount produced by 45 average size photovoltaic panels on a good day (in an area with a good amount of sunlight). (How much is your daily electrical usage?) These photovoltaic panels would cover approximately 400 cubic feet.
<strong>You got me there. But then again I'm looking to buy a Honda so I guess I'm not one of those SUV people. I guess people don't consider gas costs and environment when they buy. For example even I wont look at the new Honda Hybrid.</strong><hr></blockquote>I bought my Civic in 1996, and even though it was a "regular" car, it met some low-emission standard that they had previously thought only electrics or hybrids would be able to meet.
<strong>The big problem with CNG or Hydrogen as alternative fuels is safety. And one of the biggest safety issues would be refueling. You have to be able to dispense these fuels into the car safely. Say goodbye to self serve stations. You would need well-trained attendants to fuel your car. I'm okay with this but I just don't know. There are a lot of drunks and stupid people in the world. Would it be possible to keep them out of the fueling loop?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Naw I don't buy it. They can idiot proof almost anything these days. One standard connector that does not turn on unless a good seal is detected. It can be done.
<a href="http://www.fueleconomy.gov"; target="_blank">http://www.fueleconomy.gov</a>;
Kinda cool.
My car is 31/38. Am I a good global citizen? The one I'm replacing was just about the same.
Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.
<strong>31/38 is awesome for an IC.
Just watch out for those upper class suburban moms racing in the SUV's to go to their environmental rallies, aka hypocrite parades! Actions speak louder than words.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good point about the hypocrites. I really don't care what car people drive but I can't stand those all-talk Liberals who preach environmentalism and drive an Excursion. Same goes for the "tree-huggers" that drive a VW Bus.
and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
<strong>You say this like its common . . . and I know that it is not. and the article quotes is just plain harping on something stupid... these people got a large group togather and rented a van . . not an SUV . . . let it rest its stupid.
and as for tree huggers who drive VWs. I know from having lived in Oregon that alot of the poeple that you reffer to, in your high school reactionary attitude towards them, are actually quite conservative in many of the things that they believe... when it comes to individual rights . . . not all the long haired VW drivers are the cliched "liberals" that you picture in your tiny head G4dude . . . in an other thread you mentioned "when I go to college" .. well when you do, I hope you study something that will challenge the little borders that you've drawn so defensably around yourself and not just business . . .because apparently, as is apparent in cases when you say "f*ck off and die" to artman" you need to grow up.,
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok. First of all, I never told artman to die. That would just be plain wrong. And for your info, I go to a VERY liberal school and have seen FIRST HAND the cars these people drive. Land Cruiser, Excursion, Suburban, Escalade, etc. So don't tell me what I know and what I don't know. I also happen to have a family friend that is a huge tree-hugger and he DOES drive a VW Bus. You CAN'T tell me he's the only one.
Oh and by the way, head size has nothing to do with intelligence. That has been proved. And just for the record though, my hat size is 7 5/8.
If a person buys/leases a new car every 4 years they will own a dozen or more cars in their lifetime. What's the total environmental cost of producing these vehicles and scrapping/recycling the older ones?
We might be better off (environmentally speaking) if everyone bought 2-3 cars in their lifetime and kept them each in good working order for 10-15 years each.
Environmentalism is being turned into just another consumerist marketing ploy.
So, recap.
1) Old cars often stay in circulation, meaning the choice of a new car is between a fuel sipper or an ultra-economical-sipper.
2) It definitely doesn't take much juice to scrap old cars.
P.S. Some of these old cars include an old Mercedes-Benz 300SD and 300TD. Massive diesel machines that get about 20 MPG...diesel is a bigger pollutant than gasoline though. And older cars have much worse emissions.
Yes, older cars move down through the channel of cars, but the environment would still be better off if we bought less vehicles (in total) throughout our lives.
The used car buyer still buys too many cars in his/her motoring life. The new car buyers/leasers are still flooding the market with cheap used cars and the environmental costs of mass production are staggering. If new car buyers bought less cars (total) and kept them in good working order, used car buyers would also have less cheap cars to choose from, they would buy a few more new cars (and keep them longer), but still, for the most part, buy used cars (just less often, and later).
REDUCE, RE-USE, RECYCLE.
We're Okay at the last two, but we're not very good at all at the first.
HOWEVER, this would have MAJOR economic ramifications for which we are totally unprepared. I think we will come to this naturally (but never completely, just mildly) as cars get better and better and just last longer. Quality may end up reducing our vehicle spending simply because there's no need to buy a new car every 3-7 years. Consumerists will ALWAYS want a new toy, though.