I live in the UK. The iPhone is offered for free here.
You're forgetting that every "free" smartphone is tied to an expensive contract.
Stop pretending that there is an equivalent system! In the UK, those "free" iPhones have a higher contract price than other free phones. There, every phone has a different monthly rate depending on the phone. In the US, all contract prices are the same. A free phone in the US has the same monthly price as a premium phone. It is like comparing apples to screwdrivers.
Sure, it is nice to beat a competitor here and there, but I still don't believe that it is Apple's goal to become the "biggest". They're just having fun making "a product that they would like to use themselves" and since that has proven to be the right concept, the sales logically follow.
I know this is unrelated but I still hope that Apple will some day also relocate the assembly of their products back to the USA, so that our money stays here and we don't have to pay unemployed Americans.
RIM is in trouble. They're assaulted on all three fronts now - Android, iOS and WP7.
Shows you what a desperate move announcing the BlackPad was.
The PlayBook uses Adobe Air as the UI. They are well managed company but they really dropped the ball in terms of software. It’s amazing that most of the history of smartphones has focused around the HW with only weak SW features until the iPhone shook things up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
Debate aside, I think we all know that we need one other set of numbers. Which is smartphone-only sales. I'm sure it's somewhere around.
We could then dig further into what is considered a smartphone, but we need the data first and see *what* that data considered smartphones to be.
QFT ☝
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage
Here's a graph of Nokia sales of all the units they call "converged devices”
The products that are considered to be the equals of the iPhone/Android and WP7 devices are called N-series. These are typically sold with data-plans, and I suspect most people buy them to use them as real smartphones. Look at the purple line.
Just look at the Summer 2007 and you can see which phone would compete more directly with the iPhone.
So Nokia is still technically selling more “smartphones” than Apple, but that looks likely to not be the case some time in 2011, based on current trends. Any word on how much profit Apple is getting from the handset market these days? Are they over 40%.
Apple tried to change things with the Mac. They've been trying for decades and have had some success. But they warmed up with the iPod, and then blew everything apart with the iPhone and iPad.
Mobile and desktop experiences beyond the usual desktop is where the real power is.
The *experience*. That's hardware, software, IDEs, etc.
And that wonderful new experience that has changed the very way we view technology is crafted by iOS, iPhone and iPad now.
Sure, there'll be things like integrated implants, cybernetic remote viewing and true 3D holographics down the line.
But for now, I was reflecting the other day, iOS, iPhone and iPad are truly HISTORIC landmarks marking this phase of the IT revolution of these past 30 years. The biggest thing before this was the invention of the mouse and GUI. Everything inbetween was a training bra.
Superb observations. The full impact won't be understood for a while.......
I wonder what laptop sales would look like if you didn't count the ones that never left peoples desks.
I wonder what off road vehicle sales would look like if you only counted the ones that went off road.
Why is it Nokia's fault the user doesn't use the full functions of the phone? It isn't, which is why you like in a fantasy land with how you want to count devices.
Apple doesn't offer any other class of cell phone EXCEPT the smartphone - this is the iPhone numbers stacked against ALL other categories of cell phones produced by these competitors. Moreover, it doesn't include the other iOS devices.
To be fair, while RIM's marketshare position has slipped, they have grown their actual market share percentage and have also significantly grown their unit sales.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up. If and when they tank, it won't be any fun up here.
To be fair, while RIM's marketshare position has slipped, they have grown their actual market share percentage and have also significantly grown their unit sales.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up. If and when they tank, it won't be any fun up here.
I don't think the end will come so soon, if at all, we'll have to see how things pan out over the next few years. The BlackPad, to me, though, is going to be a significant failure or a big chunk of cash burned through for something not quite thought out. And may affect RIM's reputation badly.
I don't think the end will come so soon, if at all, we'll have to see how things pan out over the next few years. The BlackPad, to me, though, is going to be a significant failure or a big chunk of cash burned through for something not quite thought out. And may affect RIM's reputation badly.
I'd agree. I think they have made some significant contributions to how we all use smartphones today, which is another reason I'd like them, of all of Apple's competitors, survive and even thrive. But they seem so schizophrenic these days. They don't really know what their long term goals are at a fundamental level. They seem to be throwing darts. The Storm and Playbook, I think, are good examples of the confusion within their company. They look at Apple and completely miss what it is that makes them successful, and then try to emulate that. The Storm was their idea of the iPhone and a complete joke. With the Playbook, it might be a good tablet, it could be a competitor to the iPad even. But, they again missed the point. iPad builds on the success of the iPhone and iOS platform as a whole. The whole iOS ecosystem is common. Playbook introduces a new OS, a new interface, new development platform, new app market place. There is nothing that ties it back to what is familiar to everyone in the RIM ecosystem. They missed the point.
Balsillie is busy chasing hockey teams and Lazaridis is busy trying to leave a [seemingly publicity driven] philanthropic/academic legacy. Neither seems completely focused on RIM anymore. Is it any wonder their company seems directionless?
On a side note, I would like to see mandatory driver's ed for each and every RIM employee. I am tired of playing crash derby when I am leaving my parking lot. None of them seem able to drive...
RIM's profit per unit is falling very rapidly. This is a classic sign of a business, that has suddenly worked out there's a problem coming.
C.
Probably. I am just saying that looking at just their position in the market share ladder is misleading, especially when qualifying their market share. People seem to think it means their market share is dropping. It isn't. They tied with Samsung for second place, behind Apple, in terms of actual market share growth.
Also, RIM is a bit unique in that, of all the major handset manufacturers, they still do a large portion of their manufacturing in North America and in their own facilities. They could conceivably trim costs substantially by offshoring this or entirely mimicking Apple and simply hiring overseas companies to do all of the manufacturing. But, to their credit, Balsillie and Lazaridis want to show they are committed to the community that created their company and have kept thousand of manufacturing jobs in Waterloo and elsewhere in Canada. Same with their call centres.
Probably. I am just saying that looking at just their position in the market share ladder is misleading, especially when qualifying their market share. People seem to think it means their market share is dropping. It isn't. They tied with Samsung for second place, behind Apple, in terms of actual market share growth.
Also, RIM is a bit unique in that, of all the major handset manufacturers, they still do a large portion of their manufacturing in North America and in their own facilities. They could conceivably trim costs substantially by offshoring this or entirely mimicking Apple and simply hiring overseas companies to do all of the manufacturing. But, to their credit, Balsillie and Lazaridis want to show they are committed to the community that created their company and have kept thousand of manufacturing jobs in Waterloo and elsewhere in Canada. Same with their call centres.
I think the majority of handset costs is components. The manufacture costs are relatively tiny. <$10 per handset. I don't think there's much saving to be made by going offshore.
I think the majority of handset costs is components. The manufacture costs are relatively tiny. <$10 per handset. I don't think there's much saving to be made by going offshore.
C.
Maybe, but Apple et al are offshoring for a reason.
To be fair, while RIM's marketshare position has slipped, they have grown their actual market share percentage and have also significantly grown their unit sales.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up. If and when they tank, it won't be any fun up here.
Most RIM handsets are free when you sign up with a phone plan, not so for Apple...if they charged same price as the iPhone I doubt they would sell any.
Most RIM handsets are free when you sign up with a phone plan, not so for Apple...if they charged same price as the iPhone I doubt they would sell any.
Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to see numbers that verify that most BB are free. On AT&T's website, with 2 year contract, I see 1 BB at $99, 1 at $149 and the rest are $199. V has a few that are free with 2yr and others that are $49-$149. I think there is no question that BB's sell for far less than the average iPhone.
Comments
I live in the UK. The iPhone is offered for free here.
You're forgetting that every "free" smartphone is tied to an expensive contract.
Stop pretending that there is an equivalent system! In the UK, those "free" iPhones have a higher contract price than other free phones. There, every phone has a different monthly rate depending on the phone. In the US, all contract prices are the same. A free phone in the US has the same monthly price as a premium phone. It is like comparing apples to screwdrivers.
I know this is unrelated but I still hope that Apple will some day also relocate the assembly of their products back to the USA, so that our money stays here and we don't have to pay unemployed Americans.
Rest In Motion
-or- Research in Stagnation
RIM is in trouble. They're assaulted on all three fronts now - Android, iOS and WP7.
Shows you what a desperate move announcing the BlackPad was.
The PlayBook uses Adobe Air as the UI. They are well managed company but they really dropped the ball in terms of software. It’s amazing that most of the history of smartphones has focused around the HW with only weak SW features until the iPhone shook things up.
Debate aside, I think we all know that we need one other set of numbers. Which is smartphone-only sales. I'm sure it's somewhere around.
We could then dig further into what is considered a smartphone, but we need the data first and see *what* that data considered smartphones to be.
QFT ☝
Here's a graph of Nokia sales of all the units they call "converged devices”
image: http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/image...okia-chart.png
The products that are considered to be the equals of the iPhone/Android and WP7 devices are called N-series. These are typically sold with data-plans, and I suspect most people buy them to use them as real smartphones. Look at the purple line.
Just look at the Summer 2007 and you can see which phone would compete more directly with the iPhone.
So Nokia is still technically selling more “smartphones” than Apple, but that looks likely to not be the case some time in 2011, based on current trends. Any word on how much profit Apple is getting from the handset market these days? Are they over 40%.
Apple tried to change things with the Mac. They've been trying for decades and have had some success. But they warmed up with the iPod, and then blew everything apart with the iPhone and iPad.
Mobile and desktop experiences beyond the usual desktop is where the real power is.
The *experience*. That's hardware, software, IDEs, etc.
And that wonderful new experience that has changed the very way we view technology is crafted by iOS, iPhone and iPad now.
Sure, there'll be things like integrated implants, cybernetic remote viewing and true 3D holographics down the line.
But for now, I was reflecting the other day, iOS, iPhone and iPad are truly HISTORIC landmarks marking this phase of the IT revolution of these past 30 years. The biggest thing before this was the invention of the mouse and GUI. Everything inbetween was a training bra.
Superb observations. The full impact won't be understood for a while.......
Rest In Motion
More like 'Reset In Motion'. Back to the drawing board for RIM or else be lost in the dust of iOS, Android, and upcoming WebOS.
I wonder what laptop sales would look like if you didn't count the ones that never left peoples desks.
I wonder what off road vehicle sales would look like if you only counted the ones that went off road.
Why is it Nokia's fault the user doesn't use the full functions of the phone? It isn't, which is why you like in a fantasy land with how you want to count devices.
Apple doesn't offer any other class of cell phone EXCEPT the smartphone - this is the iPhone numbers stacked against ALL other categories of cell phones produced by these competitors. Moreover, it doesn't include the other iOS devices.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up.
I figured out my 32GB iPhone4 was $1446. That's on Three.
C.
Perhaps, but then you get free data service for the term. That's not a bad deal at all!
To be fair, while RIM's marketshare position has slipped, they have grown their actual market share percentage and have also significantly grown their unit sales.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up.
I don't think the end will come so soon, if at all, we'll have to see how things pan out over the next few years. The BlackPad, to me, though, is going to be a significant failure or a big chunk of cash burned through for something not quite thought out. And may affect RIM's reputation badly.
. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
RIM's profit per unit is falling very rapidly. This is a classic sign of a business, that has suddenly worked out there's a problem coming.
C.
I don't think the end will come so soon, if at all, we'll have to see how things pan out over the next few years. The BlackPad, to me, though, is going to be a significant failure or a big chunk of cash burned through for something not quite thought out. And may affect RIM's reputation badly.
I'd agree. I think they have made some significant contributions to how we all use smartphones today, which is another reason I'd like them, of all of Apple's competitors, survive and even thrive. But they seem so schizophrenic these days. They don't really know what their long term goals are at a fundamental level. They seem to be throwing darts. The Storm and Playbook, I think, are good examples of the confusion within their company. They look at Apple and completely miss what it is that makes them successful, and then try to emulate that. The Storm was their idea of the iPhone and a complete joke. With the Playbook, it might be a good tablet, it could be a competitor to the iPad even. But, they again missed the point. iPad builds on the success of the iPhone and iOS platform as a whole. The whole iOS ecosystem is common. Playbook introduces a new OS, a new interface, new development platform, new app market place. There is nothing that ties it back to what is familiar to everyone in the RIM ecosystem. They missed the point.
Balsillie is busy chasing hockey teams and Lazaridis is busy trying to leave a [seemingly publicity driven] philanthropic/academic legacy. Neither seems completely focused on RIM anymore. Is it any wonder their company seems directionless?
On a side note, I would like to see mandatory driver's ed for each and every RIM employee. I am tired of playing crash derby when I am leaving my parking lot. None of them seem able to drive...
RIM's profit per unit is falling very rapidly. This is a classic sign of a business, that has suddenly worked out there's a problem coming.
C.
Probably. I am just saying that looking at just their position in the market share ladder is misleading, especially when qualifying their market share. People seem to think it means their market share is dropping. It isn't. They tied with Samsung for second place, behind Apple, in terms of actual market share growth.
Also, RIM is a bit unique in that, of all the major handset manufacturers, they still do a large portion of their manufacturing in North America and in their own facilities. They could conceivably trim costs substantially by offshoring this or entirely mimicking Apple and simply hiring overseas companies to do all of the manufacturing. But, to their credit, Balsillie and Lazaridis want to show they are committed to the community that created their company and have kept thousand of manufacturing jobs in Waterloo and elsewhere in Canada. Same with their call centres.
Probably. I am just saying that looking at just their position in the market share ladder is misleading, especially when qualifying their market share. People seem to think it means their market share is dropping. It isn't. They tied with Samsung for second place, behind Apple, in terms of actual market share growth.
Also, RIM is a bit unique in that, of all the major handset manufacturers, they still do a large portion of their manufacturing in North America and in their own facilities. They could conceivably trim costs substantially by offshoring this or entirely mimicking Apple and simply hiring overseas companies to do all of the manufacturing. But, to their credit, Balsillie and Lazaridis want to show they are committed to the community that created their company and have kept thousand of manufacturing jobs in Waterloo and elsewhere in Canada. Same with their call centres.
I think the majority of handset costs is components. The manufacture costs are relatively tiny. <$10 per handset. I don't think there's much saving to be made by going offshore.
C.
SHOW ME THE MONEY (I.E., GROSS PROFITS)!
Wonder what that tables looks like then.
One Apple iPhone makes Apple more money than 10,000 Jitterbugs sold in Florida, so who cares about unit shipments.
3rd spot up for grabs some time in 2011?
Hmm, LG look distinctly vulnerable..
3rd spot up for grabs some time in 2011?
I thought so too. They are the only one in the top 5 that sold fewer units into a rapidly growing market.
I think the majority of handset costs is components. The manufacture costs are relatively tiny. <$10 per handset. I don't think there's much saving to be made by going offshore.
C.
Maybe, but Apple et al are offshoring for a reason.
Maybe, but Apple et al are offshoring for a reason.
Labour costs play a part. But I think the real reason is scalability and consistency.
C.
To be fair, while RIM's marketshare position has slipped, they have grown their actual market share percentage and have also significantly grown their unit sales.
Their unit sales YOY, are up from 8.5 to 12.4 million for the quarter and their market share went up from 2.9% to 3.6%. So, while Apple has surged massively and grabbed the #4 spot over all, it isn't like RIM has necessarily lost ground. RIM is actually still accelerating unit sales and market share, but the market itself is growing faster. Apple is beating the market in all metrics.
Personally, while I love that Apple is doing well and would like to see them dominate, of the other players I would like to see RIM be successful...I live in Waterloo and they help keep the local job market for developers competitive and help drive salaries up.
Most RIM handsets are free when you sign up with a phone plan, not so for Apple...if they charged same price as the iPhone I doubt they would sell any.
Most RIM handsets are free when you sign up with a phone plan, not so for Apple...if they charged same price as the iPhone I doubt they would sell any.
Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to see numbers that verify that most BB are free. On AT&T's website, with 2 year contract, I see 1 BB at $99, 1 at $149 and the rest are $199. V has a few that are free with 2yr and others that are $49-$149. I think there is no question that BB's sell for far less than the average iPhone.