I sent an email to Jobs as well and I got the same exact response, word for word. Seems strange he would send the same response or maybe he just keeps responding this way to everyone.
The XServe hardware was great I think the problem, speaking as a Linux server admin, and Mac desktop user, this:
'Traditional Unix' such as Linux, Solaris etc offer full flexibility & customisation but you have to roll your sleeves up and get dirty with the command line and config files to do it
Windows Server offers full flexibility & customisation in a 100% point & click GUI
Mac OS X Server tried to straddle both and never quite managed to get a firm footing in either approach. Apple provided an easy to user GUI to configure the server software like Apache, Samba, Postfix etc, but it only offered basic configuration.
If you wanted to do anything more advanced you had to dive under the hood and edit the configuration files, and at that point Apple's shiny GUI tools broke and stopped working because you'd modified Apple default config - from then on you might as well be using Linux and save yourself the comparatively huge licensing fee for OS X Server.
If on the other hand you wanted full configuration ability purely through the GUI you were better off with Windows Server.
Mac OS X Server was neither one nor the other. Plus as others have pointed out it wasnt promoted properly but Apple seems to take this approach with the Mac in general compared to the iPod, iPhone & iPad
You would think so but nothing is in the same place as Linux
You won't find /etc/init.d or /var/www or /etc/httpd/httpd.conf
It is an easter egg hunt.
With Apple you are expected to use the server admin app.
Are you serious? An easter egg hunt in command line?
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
I think you have the right idea but are stating the wrong message.
When Apple removed ?Computer? from their name they well a long way from "shifting their focus from computers to consumer electronics? The iPod was already a huge part of their company and had been for years.
On top of that, ?PC?s are consumer products and are, obviously, electronic. We may not define them as ?CE? but if we go back to the original Apple computer that is exactly what Apple was founded on. They brought the computer to the consumer. The Mac with its GUI was the evolution of that, and everything since then has made it easier for the average consumer to use these once-complex devices.
We can split hairs over whether ?CE? are computers that one personally uses, if Macs are ?PCs? and so forth, but at the end of the day Apple did not stop making Macs simply because they dropped the now pointless Computer from their name.
Yup. You basically said what I was trying to say, but in better words. Damn you.
Are you serious? An easter egg hunt in command line?
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
Best of luck to anyone building a server infrastructure using Mac Mini's... Remember to keep your resume up to date.
Except leave off the part where you built a sever infrastructure with Mac Minis.
Seriously, the Mac Mini Server is only really designed to handle up to 20 users. Suggesting it as an XServe replacement is hardly apt. The very best I can come up with long-term is to perhaps build Hacintosh rackmounts by putting the x386 project onto HP servers. Of course, some of the hardware won't be supported (especially the monitoring) but it'd be better than trying to cram a Mini or Pro into a datacenter.
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
While I agree with most of what you say, it is easy to answer where one would get the idea of Apple expecting you to use the server admin app.: The exam. If you want to become an ACTC and ACSA, you must know the server admin. app inside and out or you just won't pass. Ever since Apple started offering certifications, students have been warned (at least by the better ACT's) that "command line is never the answer on the exam, even if it is in real life." \
Public-facing Mac OS X server machines simply can't be managed via server admin app and be secure as the software settings are inherently outdated and simply not PCI compliant.
We do use a lot of Xserve's for web/email services and file services internally.
I know that a lot of you have asked specifically what it is people used XServe for, and I can tell you that I only have two of them. I use them for software to management my Enterprise Mac environment. My management suite is, for the most part, only supported on OS X Server. That limits me on what type of hardware I can run that suite on, but I will die before I give up the management suite I'm using. However, options for the supported OS for my management suite may expand in the near future.
The other things I use it for are very Apple specific: NetBoot and Apple Software Update Services (ASUS). I can control the updates my managed clients get with my own internal ASUS.
I was still seriously considering using Podcast Server for my work flows, but that's going to be on hold for sure now.
All of these services can be replicated on a Mac Pro easily enough, but in terms of a box that's truly geared for Enterprise the Mac Pro is not. It lacks redundant power supplies and is not easily put into a rack that has controlled airflow (you know, the gaps the stupid handles on the top and bottom have), but I'm sure something could be rigged there for another cost. Then VOILA! I have a server that now takes up three times as much space. PERFECT! The mini is quite a joke as a server for anything real process intensive or for handling larger amounts of I/O. At least with a Mac Pro I can bind my NICs together for redundancy (I assume). I can also still do RAID in a Mac Pro.
Of course Mini servers sell a lot. They're stupid cheap for small offices and development servers.
So I think I have good reasons to need that specific hardware, but it's very specific uses. So to see a response like hardly anyone was buying them...sure if you compare it to the numbers of other rack and blade servers.
If I could virtualize OS X Server in an ESX cluster, I could live with that, but I am still not a fan of virtualization for certain things. I'd much rather see Apple work with a server manufacturer and certify some hardware to be supported. It's quite a smart move really to ditch your own hardware, which doesn't turn a profit like Apple is use to seeing (I assume) compared to other things they sell, and allow someone else who IS efficient and moves more boxes to run OS X Server.
Apple has a plan, it's just waiting now to hear about it. Will it be new hardware? I doubt it would be Apple's own creation. I also think it's CRAP to have a period where you are seriously telling people to purchase Mac Pros and Minis in the interim if you are planning new hardware. Will they expand the EULA for virtualization? That would be nice for many Enterprise people. Will they offer Apple specific application hosting in the Apple Cloud in NC? More than likely, which helps people that are allowed to work in cloud environments and that don't have such bandwidth intensive needs. Some organizations have rules about anything leaving their own network and facilities.
OS X Server is not dead, if it was it would have died with the XServe. There are just a lot of scenarios that Apple could play out. Although I'm not happy about it, I'll have to just sit back and go along for the ride and see if it just crashes head long into a wall...
While I agree with most of what you say, it is easy to answer where one would get the idea of Apple expecting you to use the server admin app.: The exam. If you want to become an ACTC and ACSA, you must know the server admin. app inside and out or you just won't pass. Ever since Apple started offering certifications, students have been warned (at least by the better ACT's) that "command line is never the answer on the exam, even if it is in real life." \
You are absolutely right. But this is the same issue that Apple has had with their servers & software for the enterprise. Lack of good, qualified support.
Apple would tell you that if the Server app doesn't have it, you don't need it or that software fixes are coming "soon", even if they are critical.
Comments
Hey,
I sent an email to Jobs as well and I got the same exact response, word for word. Seems strange he would send the same response or maybe he just keeps responding this way to everyone.
copy, paste, rinse, repeat
'Traditional Unix' such as Linux, Solaris etc offer full flexibility & customisation but you have to roll your sleeves up and get dirty with the command line and config files to do it
Windows Server offers full flexibility & customisation in a 100% point & click GUI
Mac OS X Server tried to straddle both and never quite managed to get a firm footing in either approach. Apple provided an easy to user GUI to configure the server software like Apache, Samba, Postfix etc, but it only offered basic configuration.
If you wanted to do anything more advanced you had to dive under the hood and edit the configuration files, and at that point Apple's shiny GUI tools broke and stopped working because you'd modified Apple default config - from then on you might as well be using Linux and save yourself the comparatively huge licensing fee for OS X Server.
If on the other hand you wanted full configuration ability purely through the GUI you were better off with Windows Server.
Mac OS X Server was neither one nor the other. Plus as others have pointed out it wasnt promoted properly but Apple seems to take this approach with the Mac in general compared to the iPod, iPhone & iPad
You would think so but nothing is in the same place as Linux
You won't find /etc/init.d or /var/www or /etc/httpd/httpd.conf
It is an easter egg hunt.
With Apple you are expected to use the server admin app.
Are you serious? An easter egg hunt in command line?
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
I think you have the right idea but are stating the wrong message.
When Apple removed ?Computer? from their name they well a long way from "shifting their focus from computers to consumer electronics? The iPod was already a huge part of their company and had been for years.
On top of that, ?PC?s are consumer products and are, obviously, electronic. We may not define them as ?CE? but if we go back to the original Apple computer that is exactly what Apple was founded on. They brought the computer to the consumer. The Mac with its GUI was the evolution of that, and everything since then has made it easier for the average consumer to use these once-complex devices.
We can split hairs over whether ?CE? are computers that one personally uses, if Macs are ?PCs? and so forth, but at the end of the day Apple did not stop making Macs simply because they dropped the now pointless Computer from their name.
Yup. You basically said what I was trying to say, but in better words. Damn you.
Are you serious? An easter egg hunt in command line?
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
/root much?
I suppose an apple forum is the wrong place to ask this question, but:
- How many of you have rack-mounted servers at your company?
- For those of you who do, what OS?
my clients have hundreds or thousands of blades and rack servers running Solaris, Linux or AIX. far down the list is HP-UX.
I don't see where you would think that Mac Minis would make a poor server infrastructure.
the hard drive. the consumer-level hard drive in the Mac Mini won't survive long under data centre workloads.
Or how about this? An Apple blade system with 20 quad core CPUs per 2U using low power, high performance, souped up AppleTV boards in them.
twenty quad core CPUs in an enclosure that's not even 10cm high?!
The lack of stability and support for OSX Server killed the X-Serve and X Serve Raid.
Lack of stability? What do you mean? The Xserves I've installed in 2002 only required a reboot whenever I did major updates to the software.
Best of luck to anyone building a server infrastructure using Mac Mini's... Remember to keep your resume up to date.
Except leave off the part where you built a sever infrastructure with Mac Minis.
Seriously, the Mac Mini Server is only really designed to handle up to 20 users. Suggesting it as an XServe replacement is hardly apt. The very best I can come up with long-term is to perhaps build Hacintosh rackmounts by putting the x386 project onto HP servers. Of course, some of the hardware won't be supported (especially the monitoring) but it'd be better than trying to cram a Mini or Pro into a datacenter.
I have a Client who wanted a fileserver. After evaluating the Xserve, I set up a server for about 1.200? using Linux and netatalk for AFP Sharing.
Works like a charm.
If somebody makes a living administering Linux servers, they live and breath CLI. If a system admin can't find the httpd.conf for either server and their associates virtual host files in a heartbeat, they should look for a new job.
I am also not sure where you get the idea that Apple expects you to use the server admin app.
Apple's Server documentation describes each function and task to be performed either in command line or via app.
While I agree with most of what you say, it is easy to answer where one would get the idea of Apple expecting you to use the server admin app.: The exam. If you want to become an ACTC and ACSA, you must know the server admin. app inside and out or you just won't pass. Ever since Apple started offering certifications, students have been warned (at least by the better ACT's) that "command line is never the answer on the exam, even if it is in real life."
You would think so but nothing is in the same place as Linux
You won't find /etc/init.d or /var/www or /etc/httpd/httpd.conf
It is an easter egg hunt.
But I guess there are also BSD guys, they should feel more familiar in OS X than the Linux guys.
Apple pulled the XServes years ago from MacWorld leaving us with just consumer gear and little reason for professionals to attend.
Apple never displayed them in a retail store that I ever saw.
Apple spent little on advertising them.
And you're surprised hardly anybody is buying them?
I was never terribly impressed by the XServe hardware - there were better 1G packages out there. Would rather run MacOSX server on a MPro anyway.
But I guess there are also BSD guys, they should feel more familiar in OS X than the Linux guys.
Yes this made me curious so I googled this which I bookmarked as I think it may be useful from time to time
http://wiki.apache.org/httpd/DistrosDefaultLayout
/root much?
Public-facing Mac OS X server machines simply can't be managed via server admin app and be secure as the software settings are inherently outdated and simply not PCI compliant.
We do use a lot of Xserve's for web/email services and file services internally.
The other things I use it for are very Apple specific: NetBoot and Apple Software Update Services (ASUS). I can control the updates my managed clients get with my own internal ASUS.
I was still seriously considering using Podcast Server for my work flows, but that's going to be on hold for sure now.
All of these services can be replicated on a Mac Pro easily enough, but in terms of a box that's truly geared for Enterprise the Mac Pro is not. It lacks redundant power supplies and is not easily put into a rack that has controlled airflow (you know, the gaps the stupid handles on the top and bottom have), but I'm sure something could be rigged there for another cost. Then VOILA! I have a server that now takes up three times as much space. PERFECT! The mini is quite a joke as a server for anything real process intensive or for handling larger amounts of I/O. At least with a Mac Pro I can bind my NICs together for redundancy (I assume). I can also still do RAID in a Mac Pro.
Of course Mini servers sell a lot. They're stupid cheap for small offices and development servers.
So I think I have good reasons to need that specific hardware, but it's very specific uses. So to see a response like hardly anyone was buying them...sure if you compare it to the numbers of other rack and blade servers.
If I could virtualize OS X Server in an ESX cluster, I could live with that, but I am still not a fan of virtualization for certain things. I'd much rather see Apple work with a server manufacturer and certify some hardware to be supported. It's quite a smart move really to ditch your own hardware, which doesn't turn a profit like Apple is use to seeing (I assume) compared to other things they sell, and allow someone else who IS efficient and moves more boxes to run OS X Server.
Apple has a plan, it's just waiting now to hear about it. Will it be new hardware? I doubt it would be Apple's own creation. I also think it's CRAP to have a period where you are seriously telling people to purchase Mac Pros and Minis in the interim if you are planning new hardware. Will they expand the EULA for virtualization? That would be nice for many Enterprise people. Will they offer Apple specific application hosting in the Apple Cloud in NC? More than likely, which helps people that are allowed to work in cloud environments and that don't have such bandwidth intensive needs. Some organizations have rules about anything leaving their own network and facilities.
OS X Server is not dead, if it was it would have died with the XServe. There are just a lot of scenarios that Apple could play out. Although I'm not happy about it, I'll have to just sit back and go along for the ride and see if it just crashes head long into a wall...
While I agree with most of what you say, it is easy to answer where one would get the idea of Apple expecting you to use the server admin app.: The exam. If you want to become an ACTC and ACSA, you must know the server admin. app inside and out or you just won't pass. Ever since Apple started offering certifications, students have been warned (at least by the better ACT's) that "command line is never the answer on the exam, even if it is in real life."
You are absolutely right. But this is the same issue that Apple has had with their servers & software for the enterprise. Lack of good, qualified support.
Apple would tell you that if the Server app doesn't have it, you don't need it or that software fixes are coming "soon", even if they are critical.
Not an answer you can tell your customers.
You would think so but nothing is in the same place as Linux
You won't find /etc/init.d or /var/www or /etc/httpd/httpd.conf
It is an easter egg hunt.
With Apple you are expected to use the server admin app.
You are actually selling this to me.
I can't stand the archaic structure of linux and have never given OSX Server a seconds thought until now.