Blah Blah. The EU, I suspect, doesn't work on rumours. At any rate, I don't see any collusion. iPhone is only one many 'American' handsets on the market.
How is it not collusion when the carriers all get together and declare that they will collectively punish apple for selling a product?
In the UK, the subsidy is much higher than in the US, so Apple has a lot more to lose there and consumers are already better off.
For example Vodaphone offers the iPhone 4 for free, with a £45 a month plan for 2 years(so £1080 all in for 2 years).
On AT&T, same phone costs $199 up front, then $75 a month for an equivalent plan for 2 years, which is a total cost of $2,000.
So you can see that hammering the carriers in Europe (or at least in the UK) is a poke in the eye for everyone, especially considering in the U.S. there is only ONE carrier that offers the iPhone. All this bitching about the EU causing issues is a bit rich, when it's here where we're being screwed (as usual).
Things may or may not be better for consumers in Europe; that's subjective. My point wasn't to compare the state of the US vs the state of Europe in terms of customer satisfaction but rather to illustrate that it is funny how the EU is all over Apple when it comes to standardizing a charger or implementing volume warnings into their OS, but when an actual issue emerges, assuming this article has any truth, they lick the hand that feeds.
Politics are politics.
Hope all you fine folks are boycotting the airlines this holiday.
Firstly, the iPhone did most of this damage from day 1, where the carrier cannot make changes or brand the phone in any way. The carrier became a carrier only, not a supplier of phones. Even if they supplied the phone they had no special place.
But mainly, why do you need any kind of sim to lock someone in. If a carrier says I can have the phone at a subsidised price, IF I sign contract, who cares what the sim is?
I am locked in by the contract, in which I agree to remain with the carrier for the contract period, paying the contracted amount. Sure, I can take the phone elsewhere and keep paying off the contract, but they don't care about that either.
So that's my main issue, you're locked in by a legal contract, what else matters?
Things may or may not be better for consumers in Europe; that's subjective.
I am not sure what is subjective about having more choice, at a lower cost?
Quote:
My point wasn't to compare the state of the US vs the state of Europe in terms of customer satisfaction but rather to illustrate that it is funny how the EU is all over Apple when it comes to standardizing a charger or implementing volume warnings into their OS, but when an actual issue emerges, assuming this article has any truth, they lick the hand that feeds.
Cheers!
Like any bureaucracy, the EU takes an age to respond to anything - they'll probably look at this in about 4 years time. But come on, let's be fair here... the regulators here (in the US) had a tizzy-fit when Google Voice was excluded from the iPhone, but don't seem to give a crap about the virtual monopolies of ISPs and Cable-TV providers around the country. It all depends on who's paying your salary... in the EU, it's the taxpayers, so they get looked after. Here it's the corps, so they get looked after.
So that's my main issue, you're locked in by a legal contract, what else matters?
For some shortsighted customers I think it?s the perception of control, because they can physically alter something, even though it gives them no less control than they had before, and likely more if they have an unlocked version of this device.
I am not sure what is subjective about having more choice, at a lower cost?
Like any bureaucracy, the EU takes an age to respond to anything - they'll probably look at this in about 4 years time. But come on, let's be fair here... the regulators here (in the US) had a tizzy-fit when Google Voice was excluded from the iPhone, but don't seem to give a crap about the virtual monopolies of ISPs and Cable-TV providers around the country. It all depends on who's paying your salary... in the EU, it's the taxpayers, so they get looked after. Here it's the corps, so they get looked after.
Economics is economics.
You get taxed out the nose on basically everything in Europe. Worse so than even in the US. The subsidy may be better for this particular product, but in general, electronic goods are more expensive in Europe. I'd also be interested in knowing the price of the actual plans compared to AT&T.
Aside from that, I don't consider CDMA an option, so it's basically a choice between T-Mobile and AT&T in the US for me. T-Mobile is home to some of the worst customer service I've ever experienced.
If you are really naive enough to believe the taxpayers are looked after, then by all means, give more of your paycheck to Obama.
That?s the rub, it doesn?t change a dang thing for the consumer. Apple already works with carriers to lock the device to a particular carrier wherever and whenever it best for them.
For example, in the US on AT&T the iPhone has a physical SIM but I can?t simply put a T-Mobile USA SIM card in to get GSM service on the device or get GSM/UMTS service with any number of SIMs from various countries and carriers in Europe. It doesn?t work that way.
You still need to unlock the device for SIM swapping to work. Again, this would only alter the way you?d get the SIM data into the device, not decimate the need for SIMs altogether.
That's why I don't understand the reasons given for the carriers being against it. I don't see why they would really care. With or without an integrated SIM, it is still and SIM. The phones will still be carrier locked if the contract between Apple and the carriers says it is to be locked. In Canada, where we have multiple carriers selling the iPhone, it is already the case that you can walk into an Apple store and buy an iPhone locked to a specific carrier of your choice. The Apple store stocks SIM for all the carriers. So, whether they insert a SIM for a carrier or initialize the integrated SIM for a specific carrier, the direct interaction with the carrier and customer at point of sale is already gone when a customer does their business at an Apple store.
The reasons given for the carriers opposing it make no sense at all. Makes me doubt there is a story at all. Either Apple will do it or the won't. I don't really think the carrier will care, other than they might have to implement the new activation process in their own retail locations, which might have some expense.
My god -- if only Apple could actually make carrier and plan selection so simple... never having to deal with a carrier directly would be so very much better than the crap we have to put up with currently (idiot commissioned sales people, side and special deals on whims of said idiots, incorrect billing, inability to easily switch carriers when travelling, and resulting obscene roaming charges, etc., etc., etc.)
Oh well, personally I'll just stick with wi-fi aside from phone calls, until the carrier system starts to make some sort of sense (I'm not holding my breath, but nice to hear Apple may be trying to help fix the system).
Then again, some countries (the US comes to mind) still only have a single iPhone carrier, so I guess this wouldn't be as major a change.
Apple's actually pretty damn fearless - as leaders tend to be. But you can lose your advantage tilting at too many windmills. They'll retrench and bide their time, then try this tack again from a position of greater strength... as Apple has been known to do.
I remember well when the big cell carriers felt they held all the cards in the mobile game. That's slowly turning around to favor the device maker. That is - ONE device maker. But we're not quite there yet.
No, but it is the company which has got the most press about EU anti-trust measures, so it must have the driving force behind your comment. And since you strongly implied that no European companies have been targeted by the EU anti-trust activities, you clearly do not know much about them.
The EU's search tool is under maintenance this weekend so only older cases are available but just to pick the cases closed in the year 1998:
You get taxed out the nose on basically everything in Europe. Worse so than even in the US. The subsidy may be better for this particular product, but in general, electronic goods are more expensive in Europe. I'd also be interested in knowing the price of the actual plans compared to AT&T.
It really depends where in Europe to be honest. In the UK, income tax is lower than in the US overall, but there is a consumption tax (VAT) which we don't have in the US - this is just about the only modern country not to have a VAT (although some states apply sales tax).
I put the pricing of an actual plan in my first post, £45 a month for 2,000 minutes, unlimited texts and 1GB of data.
Quote:
If you are really naive enough to believe the taxpayers are looked after, then by all means, give more of your paycheck to Obama.
While Apple has reportedly abandoned its plans for embedded SIM cards in the iPhone, it will allegedly push ahead with that technology for the iPad.
The iPad makes more sense. It's not on contract (usually) and as such isn't subsidised. The ability for Apple to sell it and control the SIM card would be useful.
Quote:
In addition to allowing users to select a carrier right from their phone, a programmable integrated SIM would also enable users to travel the globe and initiate service without having to obtain a unique SIM card for each carrier in a different country.
If Apple could help people who enter another country to easily purchase prepaid data on the local carrier, that would be very powerful. Data roaming is very expensive at present.
Imagine arriving in Germany, and your iPad automatically becomes a T-mobile device and offers a page to pay for 1GB of data (direct from your iTunes account perhaps?). If it tethers to your laptop it'll be even more effective.
The iPad makes more sense. It's not on contract (usually) and as such isn't subsidised. The ability for Apple to sell it and control the SIM card would be useful.
If Apple could help people who enter another country to easily purchase prepaid data on the local carrier, that would be very powerful. Data roaming is very expensive at present.
Imagine arriving in Germany, and your iPad automatically becomes a T-mobile device and offers a page to pay for 1GB of data (direct from your iTunes account perhaps?). If it tethers to your laptop it'll be even more effective.
The reporter doesn't know the difference between the release of a new device, and the release of new software supporting a range of devices. Given this factual error, how many other factual errors is there!?!
Embedded SIMs are the future, and carriers will be powerless to stop them from becoming reality.
Really, what is the fuss about? The ability to switch a phone from one network to another. Even a network locked phone can be unlocked with ease.
Providers will still be able to tie customers to a long term financial committment with high subsidies. Just because you can switch the phone to another network doesn't void a legally binding contract that you will pay the carrier the agreed tariff until the end of the contract.
SIM cards are old tech, long due to be consigned to history. It is like viewing cards in set top boxes. There are now solutions that don't require a physical card that work just as well, but without the logistical headache.
It really depends where in Europe to be honest. In the UK, income tax is lower than in the US overall, but there is a consumption tax (VAT) which we don't have in the US - this is just about the only modern country not to have a VAT (although some states apply sales tax).
I put the pricing of an actual plan in my first post, £45 a month for 2,000 minutes, unlimited texts and 1GB of data.
Oh god, you're one of them. Conversation over...
One of them? You mean, one of those folks that enjoy liberty and privacy? My god, how ridiculous. Perhaps it may relieve some of the chafing of your undergarments to know that I dislike all parties and have no affiliation to any politician or organization. Obama is just an easy target because he over-promised in a way that no other president ever has and has truly failed to keep any of his promises or represent the people of this country whatsoever. He has, however, raised my taxes and allowed the TSA to get away with some truly terrible things on his watch. If you endorse Obama or government limitation of liberty in general, then there's probably little conversation to have to begin with. Most liberals (for lack of a better term) think their opinions validate the control and manipulation of others. Tucking your tail is certainly an easier choice to make than actually engaging the issue. And seriously, here in the States, I'm not the only person who is fed up with the governments of the world. If you aren't, you're mental, quite frankly.
In terms of security, the SIM card is the weakest link. It is stupidly easy to clone a SIM card. The protocols that are used on SIM cards have not kept pace with modern technology and limit not only secuirty, but functions and addressability.
Additionally, this blogger talks about GSM. i.e. 2G networking. This is nothing to do with current devices.
Comments
The Telegraph, dodgy? OK, it's a right-wing establishment newspaper, but it's not exactly the Sun, or the Daily Mail or Fox News now, is it?
They have great photographs every week.
Blah Blah. The EU, I suspect, doesn't work on rumours. At any rate, I don't see any collusion. iPhone is only one many 'American' handsets on the market.
How is it not collusion when the carriers all get together and declare that they will collectively punish apple for selling a product?
In the UK, the subsidy is much higher than in the US, so Apple has a lot more to lose there and consumers are already better off.
For example Vodaphone offers the iPhone 4 for free, with a £45 a month plan for 2 years(so £1080 all in for 2 years).
On AT&T, same phone costs $199 up front, then $75 a month for an equivalent plan for 2 years, which is a total cost of $2,000.
So you can see that hammering the carriers in Europe (or at least in the UK) is a poke in the eye for everyone, especially considering in the U.S. there is only ONE carrier that offers the iPhone. All this bitching about the EU causing issues is a bit rich, when it's here where we're being screwed (as usual).
Things may or may not be better for consumers in Europe; that's subjective. My point wasn't to compare the state of the US vs the state of Europe in terms of customer satisfaction but rather to illustrate that it is funny how the EU is all over Apple when it comes to standardizing a charger or implementing volume warnings into their OS, but when an actual issue emerges, assuming this article has any truth, they lick the hand that feeds.
Politics are politics.
Hope all you fine folks are boycotting the airlines this holiday.
Cheers!
Firstly, the iPhone did most of this damage from day 1, where the carrier cannot make changes or brand the phone in any way. The carrier became a carrier only, not a supplier of phones. Even if they supplied the phone they had no special place.
But mainly, why do you need any kind of sim to lock someone in. If a carrier says I can have the phone at a subsidised price, IF I sign contract, who cares what the sim is?
I am locked in by the contract, in which I agree to remain with the carrier for the contract period, paying the contracted amount. Sure, I can take the phone elsewhere and keep paying off the contract, but they don't care about that either.
So that's my main issue, you're locked in by a legal contract, what else matters?
They have great photographs every week.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pict...au-Prince.html
Yep.
Things may or may not be better for consumers in Europe; that's subjective.
I am not sure what is subjective about having more choice, at a lower cost?
My point wasn't to compare the state of the US vs the state of Europe in terms of customer satisfaction but rather to illustrate that it is funny how the EU is all over Apple when it comes to standardizing a charger or implementing volume warnings into their OS, but when an actual issue emerges, assuming this article has any truth, they lick the hand that feeds.
Cheers!
Like any bureaucracy, the EU takes an age to respond to anything - they'll probably look at this in about 4 years time. But come on, let's be fair here... the regulators here (in the US) had a tizzy-fit when Google Voice was excluded from the iPhone, but don't seem to give a crap about the virtual monopolies of ISPs and Cable-TV providers around the country. It all depends on who's paying your salary... in the EU, it's the taxpayers, so they get looked after. Here it's the corps, so they get looked after.
Economics is economics.
I never understood this rumour.
[?]
So that's my main issue, you're locked in by a legal contract, what else matters?
For some shortsighted customers I think it?s the perception of control, because they can physically alter something, even though it gives them no less control than they had before, and likely more if they have an unlocked version of this device.
I am not sure what is subjective about having more choice, at a lower cost?
Like any bureaucracy, the EU takes an age to respond to anything - they'll probably look at this in about 4 years time. But come on, let's be fair here... the regulators here (in the US) had a tizzy-fit when Google Voice was excluded from the iPhone, but don't seem to give a crap about the virtual monopolies of ISPs and Cable-TV providers around the country. It all depends on who's paying your salary... in the EU, it's the taxpayers, so they get looked after. Here it's the corps, so they get looked after.
Economics is economics.
You get taxed out the nose on basically everything in Europe. Worse so than even in the US. The subsidy may be better for this particular product, but in general, electronic goods are more expensive in Europe. I'd also be interested in knowing the price of the actual plans compared to AT&T.
Aside from that, I don't consider CDMA an option, so it's basically a choice between T-Mobile and AT&T in the US for me. T-Mobile is home to some of the worst customer service I've ever experienced.
If you are really naive enough to believe the taxpayers are looked after, then by all means, give more of your paycheck to Obama.
That?s the rub, it doesn?t change a dang thing for the consumer. Apple already works with carriers to lock the device to a particular carrier wherever and whenever it best for them.
For example, in the US on AT&T the iPhone has a physical SIM but I can?t simply put a T-Mobile USA SIM card in to get GSM service on the device or get GSM/UMTS service with any number of SIMs from various countries and carriers in Europe. It doesn?t work that way.
You still need to unlock the device for SIM swapping to work. Again, this would only alter the way you?d get the SIM data into the device, not decimate the need for SIMs altogether.
That's why I don't understand the reasons given for the carriers being against it. I don't see why they would really care. With or without an integrated SIM, it is still and SIM. The phones will still be carrier locked if the contract between Apple and the carriers says it is to be locked. In Canada, where we have multiple carriers selling the iPhone, it is already the case that you can walk into an Apple store and buy an iPhone locked to a specific carrier of your choice. The Apple store stocks SIM for all the carriers. So, whether they insert a SIM for a carrier or initialize the integrated SIM for a specific carrier, the direct interaction with the carrier and customer at point of sale is already gone when a customer does their business at an Apple store.
The reasons given for the carriers opposing it make no sense at all. Makes me doubt there is a story at all. Either Apple will do it or the won't. I don't really think the carrier will care, other than they might have to implement the new activation process in their own retail locations, which might have some expense.
Oh well, personally I'll just stick with wi-fi aside from phone calls, until the carrier system starts to make some sort of sense (I'm not holding my breath, but nice to hear Apple may be trying to help fix the system).
Then again, some countries (the US comes to mind) still only have a single iPhone carrier, so I guess this wouldn't be as major a change.
Hahahahahaha. Chicken apple.
Apple's actually pretty damn fearless - as leaders tend to be. But you can lose your advantage tilting at too many windmills. They'll retrench and bide their time, then try this tack again from a position of greater strength... as Apple has been known to do.
I remember well when the big cell carriers felt they held all the cards in the mobile game. That's slowly turning around to favor the device maker. That is - ONE device maker. But we're not quite there yet.
I didn't say anything about Microsoft.
No, but it is the company which has got the most press about EU anti-trust measures, so it must have the driving force behind your comment. And since you strongly implied that no European companies have been targeted by the EU anti-trust activities, you clearly do not know much about them.
The EU's search tool is under maintenance this weekend so only older cases are available but just to pick the cases closed in the year 1998:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/anti...1990.html#1998
No, tell me again that there are no European companies among these.
You get taxed out the nose on basically everything in Europe. Worse so than even in the US. The subsidy may be better for this particular product, but in general, electronic goods are more expensive in Europe. I'd also be interested in knowing the price of the actual plans compared to AT&T.
It really depends where in Europe to be honest. In the UK, income tax is lower than in the US overall, but there is a consumption tax (VAT) which we don't have in the US - this is just about the only modern country not to have a VAT (although some states apply sales tax).
I put the pricing of an actual plan in my first post, £45 a month for 2,000 minutes, unlimited texts and 1GB of data.
If you are really naive enough to believe the taxpayers are looked after, then by all means, give more of your paycheck to Obama.
Oh god, you're one of them. Conversation over...
I don't think its realistic to think Apple even thinks of integrating the SIM into the device.
And if they do, they are braindamaged.
see this blog and you understand why
http://a-fink.blogspot.com/2010/11/i...in-iphone.html
Well that link just contained visionless twaddle.
While Apple has reportedly abandoned its plans for embedded SIM cards in the iPhone, it will allegedly push ahead with that technology for the iPad.
The iPad makes more sense. It's not on contract (usually) and as such isn't subsidised. The ability for Apple to sell it and control the SIM card would be useful.
In addition to allowing users to select a carrier right from their phone, a programmable integrated SIM would also enable users to travel the globe and initiate service without having to obtain a unique SIM card for each carrier in a different country.
If Apple could help people who enter another country to easily purchase prepaid data on the local carrier, that would be very powerful. Data roaming is very expensive at present.
Imagine arriving in Germany, and your iPad automatically becomes a T-mobile device and offers a page to pay for 1GB of data (direct from your iTunes account perhaps?). If it tethers to your laptop it'll be even more effective.
The iPad makes more sense. It's not on contract (usually) and as such isn't subsidised. The ability for Apple to sell it and control the SIM card would be useful.
If Apple could help people who enter another country to easily purchase prepaid data on the local carrier, that would be very powerful. Data roaming is very expensive at present.
Imagine arriving in Germany, and your iPad automatically becomes a T-mobile device and offers a page to pay for 1GB of data (direct from your iTunes account perhaps?). If it tethers to your laptop it'll be even more effective.
This was what I was thinking as well.
Embedded SIMs are the future, and carriers will be powerless to stop them from becoming reality.
Really, what is the fuss about? The ability to switch a phone from one network to another. Even a network locked phone can be unlocked with ease.
Providers will still be able to tie customers to a long term financial committment with high subsidies. Just because you can switch the phone to another network doesn't void a legally binding contract that you will pay the carrier the agreed tariff until the end of the contract.
SIM cards are old tech, long due to be consigned to history. It is like viewing cards in set top boxes. There are now solutions that don't require a physical card that work just as well, but without the logistical headache.
SIM cards - R.I.P.
It really depends where in Europe to be honest. In the UK, income tax is lower than in the US overall, but there is a consumption tax (VAT) which we don't have in the US - this is just about the only modern country not to have a VAT (although some states apply sales tax).
I put the pricing of an actual plan in my first post, £45 a month for 2,000 minutes, unlimited texts and 1GB of data.
Oh god, you're one of them. Conversation over...
One of them? You mean, one of those folks that enjoy liberty and privacy? My god, how ridiculous. Perhaps it may relieve some of the chafing of your undergarments to know that I dislike all parties and have no affiliation to any politician or organization. Obama is just an easy target because he over-promised in a way that no other president ever has and has truly failed to keep any of his promises or represent the people of this country whatsoever. He has, however, raised my taxes and allowed the TSA to get away with some truly terrible things on his watch. If you endorse Obama or government limitation of liberty in general, then there's probably little conversation to have to begin with. Most liberals (for lack of a better term) think their opinions validate the control and manipulation of others. Tucking your tail is certainly an easier choice to make than actually engaging the issue. And seriously, here in the States, I'm not the only person who is fed up with the governments of the world. If you aren't, you're mental, quite frankly.
Well that link just contained visionless twaddle.
Agree.
In terms of security, the SIM card is the weakest link. It is stupidly easy to clone a SIM card. The protocols that are used on SIM cards have not kept pace with modern technology and limit not only secuirty, but functions and addressability.
Additionally, this blogger talks about GSM. i.e. 2G networking. This is nothing to do with current devices.
Phil