This is from the NTSB's investigation of Egypt Air Flight 990. It looks as if the plane was deliberately downed by the actions of the First Officer. the whole report is here:
1.The accident airplane's nose-down movements did not result from a failure in the elevator control system or any other airplane failure.
There was no evidence of any failure condition within the elevator system of the accident airplane that would have caused or contributed to the initial pitchover or prevented a successful recovery.
No mechanical failure scenario resulted in airplane movements that matched the flight data recorder data from the accident airplane.
Even assuming that one of the four examined failure scenarios that the investigation evaluated in depth had occurred, the accident airplane would still have been recoverable because of the
capabilities of the Boeing 767's redundant elevator system.
2.The accident airplane's movements during the initial part of the accident sequence were the result of the relief first officer's manipulation of the controls.
At the relief first officer's suggestion, a transfer of control at the first officer's position occurred earlier than normal during the accident flight.
The relief first officer was alone in the cockpit when he manually disconnected the autopilot and moved the throttle levers from cruise to idle; there was no evidence of any airplane system
malfunction, conflicting air traffic, or other event that would have prompted these actions.
The nature and degree of the subsequent nose-down elevator movements were not consistent with those that might have resulted from a mechanical failure but could be explained by pilot input.
There was no apparent reason for the relief first officer's nose-down elevator inputs.
The relief first officer's calm repetition of the phrase "I rely on God," beginning about 74 seconds before the airplane's dive began and continuing until just after the captain returned to the cockpit
(about 14 seconds into the dive), without any call for help or other audible reaction of surprise or alarm from the relief first officer after the sudden dive is not consistent with the reaction that would
be expected from a pilot who is encountering an unexpected or uncommanded flight condition.
The absence of any attempt by the relief first officer to recover from the accident airplane's sudden dive is also inconsistent with his having encountered an unexpected or uncommanded flight
condition.
The relief first officer's failure to respond to the command captain's questions ("What's happening? What's happening?") upon the captain's return to the cockpit is also inconsistent with the
reaction that would be expected from a pilot who is encountering an uncommanded or undesired flight condition.
3.The accident airplane's movements after the command captain returned to the cockpit were the result of both pilots' inputs, including opposing elevator inputs where the relief first officer continued
to command nose-down and the captain commanded nose-up elevator movements.
Nose-up elevator movements began only after the captain returned to the cockpit.
Testing showed that recovery of the airplane was possible but not accomplished.
Seconds after the nose-up elevator movements began, the elevator surfaces began moving in different directions, with the captain's control column commanding nose-up movement and the relief
first officer's control column commanding nose-down movement.
After the elevator split began, the relief first officer shut down the engines.
The captain repeatedly asked the relief first officer to "pull with me," but the relief first officer continued to command nose-down elevator movement.
The captain's actions were consistent with an attempt to recover the accident airplane and the relief first officer's were not.
Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the EgyptAir flight 990 accident is the airplane's departure from normal cruise flight and subsequent impact with the Atlantic Ocean as a result of the relief first officer's flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer's actions was not determined.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]I don't remember this at all. I followed this whole thing pretty closely and from what I recall they had no idea what ultimately caused the crash but mechanical failure of some kind was responsible. So I really would like to see a source.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure what credible source might have suggested a mechanical failure. To my knowledge only Egypt Air suggested as much, it what was clearly an attempt to save the reputation of the pilot in the face of the relevant facts. There was no mechanical failure found at all in the wreckage. All hypothetical mechanical failure scenarios that were conceived of were deemed inconsistent with what occured.
He asked to be on duty before his appointed time and suggested another pilot sleep, he asked another pilot to return a pen and thereby leave the cabin, he disconnected the autopilot, he initiated the dive, he did not attempt to correct during the dive, he did not assist the pilot in the pilot's endeavors to stop the dive, he did not answer the pilots questions, he cut the engines etc. He was trying to destroy that plane.
[quote]Colander, he wasn't bringing anything into any discussion, he was about to die.<hr></blockquote>
There was no indication that he was going to die, at least not at the point in time. The only indication would have been his own knowledge of what he was going to do. The first time he utters the phrase "I rely on God/Allah" [Or whatever variation after translation] was while the autopilot was still on and nothing at all was wrong, as stated in the NTSB report. Immediately afterwards he disconnects the autopilot and begins to initiate the dive, all the while repeating this phrase over and over. In fact he even repeats it at the same time that the pilot is asking him what is going on once the pilot reenters the cockpit.
As any pilot, even any layperson would know, his words were being recorded on the CVR. If he had intent to crash the plane, and the facts indicate as much, he would also know that there would be an subsequent analysis of his comments on the CVR. Whether or not that knowledge had anything to do with his choice of words while he was killing everyone on that plane is a subject for conjecture. I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that his comments were intended for his own consumption only. Furthermore, I think it is reasonable to suggest that the phrase itself may simply be one of habit, culture or maybe even merely incidental. Perhaps the repitition was to steady and calm him, to get "the nerve" for his actions and to remain focused during what surely must have been a tense two minutes as he knew he was about to die. On the other hand, I think it is certainly plausible that his comments were meant to be heard by those who outlived him. And he did after all, invoke the name of his God at the same time that he was murdering others. What would have caused him to kill others while commiting suicide? Most people who kill themselves do not attempt to kill others in the process. And most other murder-suicides almost always involve someone who kills family members and then kills himself rather than deal with the consequences. Is it unreasonable to at least question whether someone who selfishly murders strangers did not have an agenda?
If I had to guess I would say that Allah/God or any sort of religious ideology has nothing to do with his choice. I would suppose that as a pilot that may have seemed a natural and easy way for him to off himself. He simply was too selfish to worry about others hurt in the process. That selfishness is very unusual though for suicidal people. To me that would also lend credence to the theory that his motivation was to either get back at someone else on that plane, or to get back at EgyptAir by causing them great embarrassment. Again, this is just conjecture on my part though.
[quote]"Our sources tell us that..." this very bad man who shot some El Al passengers somehow knew this guy: well, who are we talking about? Please? And I'm still waiting to find out who wrote Mika's piece.
And for that matter I'd really like to know what it's serving us to keep reading these threads about Bad Muslims when all that happens is the same old shite bores the board silly. We know you don't like Muslims, Mika, but we can all watch the news.<hr></blockquote>
I assume that this was directed at Mika even though it was in the reply post which also replied to my post. But just to clarify anyway, I am not making any statements about the LAX incident or whatever conspiracy theories some website or certain posters are putting out. I don't have time to sort through them. I'm simply saying that your particular characterization of that accident as not being a suicide does not seem to be supported by what we know. In light of that, I also think that questioning his motives and comments is a valid exercise, even though I personally don't make too much of them.
Well Hassan. I know that I have very little invested in this thread. But frm what it looks like, this was a premeditated event. The gentleman flying/crashing the plane started his Mantra about Allah way before the dive. Looks like you need to give Mika an apology at least on this point.
Very sad story. I hope I am wrong that we will be seeing many more of them in the next few months. I really want to be wrong.
Curse you, Samantha Jane, your even-handed posting and your exhaustive research.
I jest.
But I'm not apologising, not no mo', to a man who believes that:
[quote]Israel should aggressively use psychological, economic, and other pressures to disconnect these populations from its land<hr></blockquote>
about people (or rather 'creatures') who've lived there for generations before his racist arse arrived. Incidentally, we're talking about Arabs who live inside Israel here, not 'Palestinians'.
THIS IS ETHNIC CLEANSING. Why am I even debating with a man who has more in common with the Nazis than with the millions of people they killed? A man who then has the astonishing temerity to accuse me of thinking like a fascist?
And why do you, Noah, have to drop in with the 'neh neh neh neh' and ask me to apologise in the first place when you've not contributed a damn thing to this thread?
(Oh, I remember: this man who advocates Jordanian lebensraum for the Jews is not bad, merely a little 'hardened'.)
And the fact remains that there's still no link other than the one that Mika found on one conspiracy website and some right-wing Israeli web journal to link the shootings with the EgyptAir flight, and still no evidence that the guy who shot the El Al passengers was a member of Al Qaeda (the FBI flat-out denied it) even though Mika posted it as fact.
If I continually posted threads detailing the disgusting behaviour of the Israeli Defence Force, half-baked conspiracy nonsense in which Jews are after the planet and referred to Israelis as 'animals' and 'creatures' I'D BE LOCKED OFF THIS BOARD IN A FLASH.
[edited for the sake of decorum; posted in anger. The sentiment still stands.]
Arabs practiced ethnic cleansing of Jews for centuries. And they still go on practicing it. Yet, the world is largely silent on the matter. My argument was that Israel should apply a similar policy (though not nearly as harsh) to bring some attention this matter, and the contradictions in foreign policy regarding this matter.
The US is best buddies with the Saudis, yet is it the Saudis who are most ferocious in their policy of religious discrimanation. Hassan, since you were so unwilling to call your Muslim Arab brethren Nazis and Fascists, etc., why are you so eager to place this label on me? Do you not see the duplicity and hypocrisy of your argument?
It wasn't clear what caused the Immigration and Naturalization Service to reject Hesham Mohamed Hadayet's first petition for permanent residency, INS spokesman Francisco Arcaute said.
The deportation process was started after that rejection, then was stopped when Hadayet gained residency in 1997 through his wife, Hala, who had received an immigration visa through the Department of States' Diversity Lottery Program, Arcaute said.
Hadayet's uncle, Hassan Mostaffa Mahfouz, told The Associated Press in Egypt that Hadayet had only about a year remaining before he qualified for U.S. citizenship.
Hadayet was happy in the United States, Mahfouz said.
"I don't believe what happened," he said. "I felt that he could not do that."
On the Fourth of July, Hadayet was the fourth person in line at the ticket counter for El Al, Israel's national airline, when he began firing, killing two people and wounding three others, authorities said. He fired off 10 or 11 bullets before he was shot dead by a security guard.
His wife and sons, Adam, 8, and Omar, 14, were visiting family in Egypt at the time.
FBI ( news - web sites) special agent Richard Garcia said Saturday it still wasn't known if Hadayet harbored anti-Israel feelings, as a former employee claimed he did, and may have been motivated by hate.
Authorities had also not ruled out terrorism as a motive, and they were also considering the possibility that Hadayet was despondent over his personal or business affairs. Israeli officials said they would consider the attack an act of terror unless it was proven otherwise.
"We are pursuing all three motives," Garcia said.
What is clear, Garcia said, is that Hadayet walked into the airport intending to kill. He was armed with a .45-caliber semiautomatic Glock pistol, a 9 mm handgun and a 6-inch knife.
The FBI searched the family's apartment and took a computer, books, binders and other material, but released no details Saturday of what they contained. Autopsy results of the suspect were expected to be released late Saturday.
Abdul Zahav, a man who said he worked for Hadayet until he was fired two years ago, said Hadayet once told him he hated all Israelis. "He kept all his anger inside him," Zahav said.
A bumper sticker on Hadayet's front door read, "Read the Koran." However, Hadayet was apparently an unknown in the mosques attended by most of Southern California's 1 million Arab Americans.
After the FBI released his name as the gunman, members of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles began calling members and mosques in suburban Orange County where he lived. No one recognized his name.
"It's a very bizarre case because this man is unknown to the community and was not part of any organization," said Salam Al-Marayati, director of the council. "At this point it just seems like the work of a deranged individual."
Police records in Irvine show officers little contact with Hadayet over the 10 years he lived there. Police were called to his apartment once for a domestic dispute in May 1996, three months after his petition for permanent residency was rejected. They found Hadayet and his wife had been in a "physical confrontation," but no charges were filed.
The only other Irvine police files on Hadayet were when he was robbed in 1997 while driving a cab and when he was listed as a witness and victim in a fraud case reported in 2001.
<strong>And why do you, Noah, have to drop in with the 'neh neh neh neh' and ask me to apologise in the first place when you've not contributed a damn thing to this thread?
(Oh, I remember: this man who advocates Jordanian lebensraum for the Jews is not bad, merely a little 'hardened'.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I was brought into this thread not of my own accord earlier on and so I stuck around to see what came of it. Mika was right in his initial post and you called him a fascist for it. Demanded evidence that the man actually crashed the plane on purpose and then when the evidence showed you now refuse to admit he was right as you are now off on another tangent.
I understand what you are saying, even though I am not fully invested in your particular fight with Mika, but neh neh neh neh was not the point. If that is what you see it as, then maybe you have invested too much in this. Go get some work done and come back, it may freshen your view. It is much nicer talking to you when you are willing to converse without all the anger.
Â?if he knew that Flight 990 was "hijacked" and deliberatly taken down, he should have come out with said information soon after the 9/11 attacks... the reports are just to similar...
I read and re-read this statement, and I just canÂ?t follow your thoughts here. Can you please elaborate on this. Also, have you read the AI page I linked to yet? </strong><hr></blockquote>
if clinton knew that flight 990 was taken down a similar way (suicide) to the planes on 9/11 and the public did not already have ths information, he should come forward with this information as soon as he possibly could have after the 9/11 attacks... but as Samantha posted, the intent for the copilot of flight 990 to kill himself as well as everyone else on the plane was shown already... I had not known this when i posted...
no i havent finished reading the link you posted either... jesus you guys go on about this stuff for a long time... its a real pain to get through it all...
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> yeah i know... old habits die hard tho <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Mika was right in his initial post and you called him a fascist for it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I called Mika a fascist because he described how he wanted to rid Israel of the Arab people who have lived there for generations.
The Serbs, the Hutus and the Nazis would understand the sentiment.
That's why. Not because he's perpetually trying to whip up hate by launching threads about Muslims Behaving Badly. Although arguably I'd have had a case if I had.
I called Mika a fascist because he described how he wanted to rid Israel of the Arab people who have lived there for generations.
The Serbs, the Hutus and the Nazis would understand the sentiment.
That's why. Not because he's perpetually trying to whip up hate by launching threads about Muslims Behaving Badly. Although arguably I'd have had a case if I had.</strong><hr></blockquote>
heheh,
Isn't it interesting that the Arabs/Muslims still haven't made it to your list. I supposed that's because not enough evidence has been presented for that argument. Well, I hope by the end of the week to convince you otherwise.
This is where Mika was open and frank about wishing to adopt a policy of ethnic cleansing, to remove people in Israel with their birthright INSIDE that land.
He was asked if he understood why people round the world have the teeeensiest bit of trouble of "ethnic cleansing" as a concept, but either does not know or does not care.
He is an open, self-confessed fascist and by rights should be banned from these boards for the OPEN language of hate ... but for him it's OK to do something if someone else did it first (hey, thinking of this, BECAUSE the Nazis wiped out the Jews -- including my family btw -- THIS is justification for doing what he's proposing. They did first eh Mika?). Which is another way of saying, "I am as bad as the people that do bad things" which is ironic.
He is an open, honest-to-goodnest fascist.
That link also contains my suggested (genital) reasons for Mika's fascist thinking.
She is obviously in denial. I doubt that we will ever hear from mainstream media sources what his real motives were. However, it is clear that he targeted El Al which is an Israeli Airline service. Anyone care to guess why? I doubt he used to work for them so I doubt he is just a disgruntled employee...
I'm afraid I'm not going to address the thread here. Sorry.
I left the country of my birth (he began portentously) when I was seven, following a little, um, local difficulty in Iran. My parents were active, left-wing and secularist. They've been not been able to go back since the Islamic revolution and I've not been there for 24 years. Oh, the irony. I hardly need to spell it out. I've got family I've never met. Don't even know where they live. But am I proud of my heritage? Yes indeed. In the circumstances it's ironic also that my parents were very active (and public) campaigners for human rights as I was growing up; I was raised to believe that fascism is bad, that the Nazis weren't good folks, that Aparthied was wrong and that anti-semitism was more than just bad manners, and I still believe all these things. (Ironic also that I've been mistaken for being Jewish constantly since I came to England.) And oh, the irony: in my first week at university the young men from the Islamicists saw my name and came to my door in their Arafat headgear and tried to get me to join. I told them to piss off because they offended me and things were tense until my flamboyant alcohol intake made it obvious I was a lost cause. And, oh, the irony, the very same week (actually maybe the same afternoon but I wouldn't swear on it) I had a full-on fight with the Zionists because I believed that colonialism founded on divine mandate reminded me of South Africa and the Americas, and they were racist too! Can you believe it! (I really did.)
But OH, the supreme irony, something I've been dying to drop but avoiding because I find the "Some of my best friends are...[black / dead / gay / geeks]" syndrome so objectionable is that the foremost, most significant love of my short life so far is (can you guess?) that's right: Jewish! Yes! Oh, the irony! Oh the potential for the pollution of the noble line of David! OH, how funny! I was thinking, if we were to have to kids would it be Jewish sirname / Islamic first name, or Islamic first name / Jewish sirname..? I really, really was. (I was genuinely pissed off when Ariel Sharon got elected because I wanted to call my son Ariel Idris. Cool, huh? Ariel because it's a beautiful name, Idris because it's my last name. Well , my mum's maiden name and the name on my passport thanks to the French government, merci M. Doc.) That's what I would have wanted, but she liked the name of some dive resort in Thailand and we're not seeing each other any more anyway. Not for ages. It's all foolish, but hey. C'est l'amour.) Am I hot under the collar? Well, I wonder now what would have happened to my kids if they'd been born in Israel under President PC^KILLA. I thought it was funny when I started typing this - where would they go? But on reflection, it makes me want to cry.
Hassan, you know I?m not religious. So what makes me (and 80% of Israeli Jews) Jewish? It?s the fact that my ancestors trace their nationality to Judea. This is our true home. It?s that simple. Zionism has little to with religion and in many ways rejects religious authority. Zionism has everything to do with recovering the land that was stolen from us 2000 years ago.
And under President PC^KILLA, your kids would be living as Jews in a Jewish state free of public religious display(s). That?s right. No Kipahs, Kafiahs, Crosses, or other religious trappings. And I would levy taxes on religious institutions in same manner I would corporate institutions. Only they would get no business deductions and no write offs.
Hassan, you fail to understand that my dislike is not so much of ordinary Muslims or people of Muslim background. My dislike is for the Islamic ideology and those that further its advance. It?s a backward, highly expansionist and highly oppressive movement. And it seeks to dominate others who do not wish to be under its influence.
mika.
PS.
Hassan please don't cry. I'm not such a bad guy. Really. If we didn't have these hostilities with Islam I'd be willing to share my country with the Arabs. But as long as they adhere to Islam, I know that my future is seriously threatened. I can tell you now, that if these Arabs were secular (like the Bedouins), they would all now be citizens of the united states of Israel.
PSS.
Hassan, please read the Ali Sina post. He?s Iranian too.
Comments
<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm</a>;
[quote]Summary
1.The accident airplane's nose-down movements did not result from a failure in the elevator control system or any other airplane failure.
There was no evidence of any failure condition within the elevator system of the accident airplane that would have caused or contributed to the initial pitchover or prevented a successful recovery.
No mechanical failure scenario resulted in airplane movements that matched the flight data recorder data from the accident airplane.
Even assuming that one of the four examined failure scenarios that the investigation evaluated in depth had occurred, the accident airplane would still have been recoverable because of the
capabilities of the Boeing 767's redundant elevator system.
2.The accident airplane's movements during the initial part of the accident sequence were the result of the relief first officer's manipulation of the controls.
At the relief first officer's suggestion, a transfer of control at the first officer's position occurred earlier than normal during the accident flight.
The relief first officer was alone in the cockpit when he manually disconnected the autopilot and moved the throttle levers from cruise to idle; there was no evidence of any airplane system
malfunction, conflicting air traffic, or other event that would have prompted these actions.
The nature and degree of the subsequent nose-down elevator movements were not consistent with those that might have resulted from a mechanical failure but could be explained by pilot input.
There was no apparent reason for the relief first officer's nose-down elevator inputs.
The relief first officer's calm repetition of the phrase "I rely on God," beginning about 74 seconds before the airplane's dive began and continuing until just after the captain returned to the cockpit
(about 14 seconds into the dive), without any call for help or other audible reaction of surprise or alarm from the relief first officer after the sudden dive is not consistent with the reaction that would
be expected from a pilot who is encountering an unexpected or uncommanded flight condition.
The absence of any attempt by the relief first officer to recover from the accident airplane's sudden dive is also inconsistent with his having encountered an unexpected or uncommanded flight
condition.
The relief first officer's failure to respond to the command captain's questions ("What's happening? What's happening?") upon the captain's return to the cockpit is also inconsistent with the
reaction that would be expected from a pilot who is encountering an uncommanded or undesired flight condition.
3.The accident airplane's movements after the command captain returned to the cockpit were the result of both pilots' inputs, including opposing elevator inputs where the relief first officer continued
to command nose-down and the captain commanded nose-up elevator movements.
Nose-up elevator movements began only after the captain returned to the cockpit.
Testing showed that recovery of the airplane was possible but not accomplished.
Seconds after the nose-up elevator movements began, the elevator surfaces began moving in different directions, with the captain's control column commanding nose-up movement and the relief
first officer's control column commanding nose-down movement.
After the elevator split began, the relief first officer shut down the engines.
The captain repeatedly asked the relief first officer to "pull with me," but the relief first officer continued to command nose-down elevator movement.
The captain's actions were consistent with an attempt to recover the accident airplane and the relief first officer's were not.
Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the EgyptAir flight 990 accident is the airplane's departure from normal cruise flight and subsequent impact with the Atlantic Ocean as a result of the relief first officer's flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer's actions was not determined.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure what credible source might have suggested a mechanical failure. To my knowledge only Egypt Air suggested as much, it what was clearly an attempt to save the reputation of the pilot in the face of the relevant facts. There was no mechanical failure found at all in the wreckage. All hypothetical mechanical failure scenarios that were conceived of were deemed inconsistent with what occured.
He asked to be on duty before his appointed time and suggested another pilot sleep, he asked another pilot to return a pen and thereby leave the cabin, he disconnected the autopilot, he initiated the dive, he did not attempt to correct during the dive, he did not assist the pilot in the pilot's endeavors to stop the dive, he did not answer the pilots questions, he cut the engines etc. He was trying to destroy that plane.
Here is the NTSB report in brief on the web: <a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm</a>;
Here is the fuller PDF:
<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/AAB0201.pdf"; target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/AAB0201.pdf</a>;
[quote]Colander, he wasn't bringing anything into any discussion, he was about to die.<hr></blockquote>
There was no indication that he was going to die, at least not at the point in time. The only indication would have been his own knowledge of what he was going to do. The first time he utters the phrase "I rely on God/Allah" [Or whatever variation after translation] was while the autopilot was still on and nothing at all was wrong, as stated in the NTSB report. Immediately afterwards he disconnects the autopilot and begins to initiate the dive, all the while repeating this phrase over and over. In fact he even repeats it at the same time that the pilot is asking him what is going on once the pilot reenters the cockpit.
As any pilot, even any layperson would know, his words were being recorded on the CVR. If he had intent to crash the plane, and the facts indicate as much, he would also know that there would be an subsequent analysis of his comments on the CVR. Whether or not that knowledge had anything to do with his choice of words while he was killing everyone on that plane is a subject for conjecture. I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest that his comments were intended for his own consumption only. Furthermore, I think it is reasonable to suggest that the phrase itself may simply be one of habit, culture or maybe even merely incidental. Perhaps the repitition was to steady and calm him, to get "the nerve" for his actions and to remain focused during what surely must have been a tense two minutes as he knew he was about to die. On the other hand, I think it is certainly plausible that his comments were meant to be heard by those who outlived him. And he did after all, invoke the name of his God at the same time that he was murdering others. What would have caused him to kill others while commiting suicide? Most people who kill themselves do not attempt to kill others in the process. And most other murder-suicides almost always involve someone who kills family members and then kills himself rather than deal with the consequences. Is it unreasonable to at least question whether someone who selfishly murders strangers did not have an agenda?
If I had to guess I would say that Allah/God or any sort of religious ideology has nothing to do with his choice. I would suppose that as a pilot that may have seemed a natural and easy way for him to off himself. He simply was too selfish to worry about others hurt in the process. That selfishness is very unusual though for suicidal people. To me that would also lend credence to the theory that his motivation was to either get back at someone else on that plane, or to get back at EgyptAir by causing them great embarrassment. Again, this is just conjecture on my part though.
[quote]"Our sources tell us that..." this very bad man who shot some El Al passengers somehow knew this guy: well, who are we talking about? Please? And I'm still waiting to find out who wrote Mika's piece.
And for that matter I'd really like to know what it's serving us to keep reading these threads about Bad Muslims when all that happens is the same old shite bores the board silly. We know you don't like Muslims, Mika, but we can all watch the news.<hr></blockquote>
I assume that this was directed at Mika even though it was in the reply post which also replied to my post. But just to clarify anyway, I am not making any statements about the LAX incident or whatever conspiracy theories some website or certain posters are putting out. I don't have time to sort through them. I'm simply saying that your particular characterization of that accident as not being a suicide does not seem to be supported by what we know. In light of that, I also think that questioning his motives and comments is a valid exercise, even though I personally don't make too much of them.
It is the fault of the Mariner's pitching for making that game last as long as it did.
<strong>
I was in the middle of that PDF when IE barfed on me... coincidence?
-Paul</strong><hr></blockquote>
IE sucks. Get a real browser.
Very sad story. I hope I am wrong that we will be seeing many more of them in the next few months. I really want to be wrong.
I jest.
But I'm not apologising, not no mo', to a man who believes that:
[quote]Israel should aggressively use psychological, economic, and other pressures to disconnect these populations from its land<hr></blockquote>
about people (or rather 'creatures') who've lived there for generations before his racist arse arrived. Incidentally, we're talking about Arabs who live inside Israel here, not 'Palestinians'.
THIS IS ETHNIC CLEANSING. Why am I even debating with a man who has more in common with the Nazis than with the millions of people they killed? A man who then has the astonishing temerity to accuse me of thinking like a fascist?
And why do you, Noah, have to drop in with the 'neh neh neh neh' and ask me to apologise in the first place when you've not contributed a damn thing to this thread?
(Oh, I remember: this man who advocates Jordanian lebensraum for the Jews is not bad, merely a little 'hardened'.)
And the fact remains that there's still no link other than the one that Mika found on one conspiracy website and some right-wing Israeli web journal to link the shootings with the EgyptAir flight, and still no evidence that the guy who shot the El Al passengers was a member of Al Qaeda (the FBI flat-out denied it) even though Mika posted it as fact.
If I continually posted threads detailing the disgusting behaviour of the Israeli Defence Force, half-baked conspiracy nonsense in which Jews are after the planet and referred to Israelis as 'animals' and 'creatures' I'D BE LOCKED OFF THIS BOARD IN A FLASH.
[edited for the sake of decorum; posted in anger. The sentiment still stands.]
[ 07-07-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
The US is best buddies with the Saudis, yet is it the Saudis who are most ferocious in their policy of religious discrimanation. Hassan, since you were so unwilling to call your Muslim Arab brethren Nazis and Fascists, etc., why are you so eager to place this label on me? Do you not see the duplicity and hypocrisy of your argument?
mika.
[ 07-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Reuters
L.A. Airport Shooting
FBI: Gunman Went to LAX to Kill (AP)
It wasn't clear what caused the Immigration and Naturalization Service to reject Hesham Mohamed Hadayet's first petition for permanent residency, INS spokesman Francisco Arcaute said.
The deportation process was started after that rejection, then was stopped when Hadayet gained residency in 1997 through his wife, Hala, who had received an immigration visa through the Department of States' Diversity Lottery Program, Arcaute said.
Hadayet's uncle, Hassan Mostaffa Mahfouz, told The Associated Press in Egypt that Hadayet had only about a year remaining before he qualified for U.S. citizenship.
Hadayet was happy in the United States, Mahfouz said.
"I don't believe what happened," he said. "I felt that he could not do that."
On the Fourth of July, Hadayet was the fourth person in line at the ticket counter for El Al, Israel's national airline, when he began firing, killing two people and wounding three others, authorities said. He fired off 10 or 11 bullets before he was shot dead by a security guard.
His wife and sons, Adam, 8, and Omar, 14, were visiting family in Egypt at the time.
FBI ( news - web sites) special agent Richard Garcia said Saturday it still wasn't known if Hadayet harbored anti-Israel feelings, as a former employee claimed he did, and may have been motivated by hate.
Authorities had also not ruled out terrorism as a motive, and they were also considering the possibility that Hadayet was despondent over his personal or business affairs. Israeli officials said they would consider the attack an act of terror unless it was proven otherwise.
"We are pursuing all three motives," Garcia said.
What is clear, Garcia said, is that Hadayet walked into the airport intending to kill. He was armed with a .45-caliber semiautomatic Glock pistol, a 9 mm handgun and a 6-inch knife.
The FBI searched the family's apartment and took a computer, books, binders and other material, but released no details Saturday of what they contained. Autopsy results of the suspect were expected to be released late Saturday.
Abdul Zahav, a man who said he worked for Hadayet until he was fired two years ago, said Hadayet once told him he hated all Israelis. "He kept all his anger inside him," Zahav said.
A bumper sticker on Hadayet's front door read, "Read the Koran." However, Hadayet was apparently an unknown in the mosques attended by most of Southern California's 1 million Arab Americans.
After the FBI released his name as the gunman, members of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles began calling members and mosques in suburban Orange County where he lived. No one recognized his name.
"It's a very bizarre case because this man is unknown to the community and was not part of any organization," said Salam Al-Marayati, director of the council. "At this point it just seems like the work of a deranged individual."
Police records in Irvine show officers little contact with Hadayet over the 10 years he lived there. Police were called to his apartment once for a domestic dispute in May 1996, three months after his petition for permanent residency was rejected. They found Hadayet and his wife had been in a "physical confrontation," but no charges were filed.
The only other Irvine police files on Hadayet were when he was robbed in 1997 while driving a cab and when he was listed as a witness and victim in a fraud case reported in 2001.
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mika.
[ 07-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>And why do you, Noah, have to drop in with the 'neh neh neh neh' and ask me to apologise in the first place when you've not contributed a damn thing to this thread?
(Oh, I remember: this man who advocates Jordanian lebensraum for the Jews is not bad, merely a little 'hardened'.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I was brought into this thread not of my own accord earlier on and so I stuck around to see what came of it. Mika was right in his initial post and you called him a fascist for it. Demanded evidence that the man actually crashed the plane on purpose and then when the evidence showed you now refuse to admit he was right as you are now off on another tangent.
I understand what you are saying, even though I am not fully invested in your particular fight with Mika, but neh neh neh neh was not the point. If that is what you see it as, then maybe you have invested too much in this. Go get some work done and come back, it may freshen your view. It is much nicer talking to you when you are willing to converse without all the anger.
<strong>Paul,
Â?if he knew that Flight 990 was "hijacked" and deliberatly taken down, he should have come out with said information soon after the 9/11 attacks... the reports are just to similar...
I read and re-read this statement, and I just canÂ?t follow your thoughts here. Can you please elaborate on this. Also, have you read the AI page I linked to yet? </strong><hr></blockquote>
if clinton knew that flight 990 was taken down a similar way (suicide) to the planes on 9/11 and the public did not already have ths information, he should come forward with this information as soon as he possibly could have after the 9/11 attacks... but as Samantha posted, the intent for the copilot of flight 990 to kill himself as well as everyone else on the plane was shown already... I had not known this when i posted...
no i havent finished reading the link you posted either... jesus you guys go on about this stuff for a long time... its a real pain to get through it all...
[quote] NoahJ
Member
Posts: 1231
From: PDX
\t posted 07-07-2002 01:48 AM Â*Â*Â* Â*Â* Â*Â* Â*Â* Â* Â* Â*Â*
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quote:
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Originally posted by Paul:
I was in the middle of that PDF when IE barfed on me... coincidence? I need to get to bed, i'll continue this later...
-Paul
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IE sucks. Get a real browser. <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> yeah i know... old habits die hard tho <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>
Mika was right in his initial post and you called him a fascist for it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I called Mika a fascist because he described how he wanted to rid Israel of the Arab people who have lived there for generations.
The Serbs, the Hutus and the Nazis would understand the sentiment.
That's why. Not because he's perpetually trying to whip up hate by launching threads about Muslims Behaving Badly. Although arguably I'd have had a case if I had.
<strong>
I called Mika a fascist because he described how he wanted to rid Israel of the Arab people who have lived there for generations.
The Serbs, the Hutus and the Nazis would understand the sentiment.
That's why. Not because he's perpetually trying to whip up hate by launching threads about Muslims Behaving Badly. Although arguably I'd have had a case if I had.</strong><hr></blockquote>
heheh,
Isn't it interesting that the Arabs/Muslims still haven't made it to your list. I supposed that's because not enough evidence has been presented for that argument. Well, I hope by the end of the week to convince you otherwise.
mika.
This is where Mika was open and frank about wishing to adopt a policy of ethnic cleansing, to remove people in Israel with their birthright INSIDE that land.
He was asked if he understood why people round the world have the teeeensiest bit of trouble of "ethnic cleansing" as a concept, but either does not know or does not care.
He is an open, self-confessed fascist and by rights should be banned from these boards for the OPEN language of hate ... but for him it's OK to do something if someone else did it first (hey, thinking of this, BECAUSE the Nazis wiped out the Jews -- including my family btw -- THIS is justification for doing what he's proposing. They did first eh Mika?). Which is another way of saying, "I am as bad as the people that do bad things" which is ironic.
He is an open, honest-to-goodnest fascist.
That link also contains my suggested (genital) reasons for Mika's fascist thinking.
I left the country of my birth (he began portentously) when I was seven, following a little, um, local difficulty in Iran. My parents were active, left-wing and secularist. They've been not been able to go back since the Islamic revolution and I've not been there for 24 years. Oh, the irony. I hardly need to spell it out. I've got family I've never met. Don't even know where they live. But am I proud of my heritage? Yes indeed. In the circumstances it's ironic also that my parents were very active (and public) campaigners for human rights as I was growing up; I was raised to believe that fascism is bad, that the Nazis weren't good folks, that Aparthied was wrong and that anti-semitism was more than just bad manners, and I still believe all these things. (Ironic also that I've been mistaken for being Jewish constantly since I came to England.) And oh, the irony: in my first week at university the young men from the Islamicists saw my name and came to my door in their Arafat headgear and tried to get me to join. I told them to piss off because they offended me and things were tense until my flamboyant alcohol intake made it obvious I was a lost cause. And, oh, the irony, the very same week (actually maybe the same afternoon but I wouldn't swear on it) I had a full-on fight with the Zionists because I believed that colonialism founded on divine mandate reminded me of South Africa and the Americas, and they were racist too! Can you believe it! (I really did.)
But OH, the supreme irony, something I've been dying to drop but avoiding because I find the "Some of my best friends are...[black / dead / gay / geeks]" syndrome so objectionable is that the foremost, most significant love of my short life so far is (can you guess?) that's right: Jewish! Yes! Oh, the irony! Oh the potential for the pollution of the noble line of David! OH, how funny! I was thinking, if we were to have to kids would it be Jewish sirname / Islamic first name, or Islamic first name / Jewish sirname..? I really, really was. (I was genuinely pissed off when Ariel Sharon got elected because I wanted to call my son Ariel Idris. Cool, huh? Ariel because it's a beautiful name, Idris because it's my last name. Well , my mum's maiden name and the name on my passport thanks to the French government, merci M. Doc.) That's what I would have wanted, but she liked the name of some dive resort in Thailand and we're not seeing each other any more anyway. Not for ages. It's all foolish, but hey. C'est l'amour.) Am I hot under the collar? Well, I wonder now what would have happened to my kids if they'd been born in Israel under President PC^KILLA. I thought it was funny when I started typing this - where would they go? But on reflection, it makes me want to cry.
So: what's my point?
My point?
Piss off, Mika.
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
And under President PC^KILLA, your kids would be living as Jews in a Jewish state free of public religious display(s). That?s right. No Kipahs, Kafiahs, Crosses, or other religious trappings. And I would levy taxes on religious institutions in same manner I would corporate institutions. Only they would get no business deductions and no write offs.
Hassan, you fail to understand that my dislike is not so much of ordinary Muslims or people of Muslim background. My dislike is for the Islamic ideology and those that further its advance. It?s a backward, highly expansionist and highly oppressive movement. And it seeks to dominate others who do not wish to be under its influence.
mika.
PS.
Hassan please don't cry. I'm not such a bad guy. Really. If we didn't have these hostilities with Islam I'd be willing to share my country with the Arabs. But as long as they adhere to Islam, I know that my future is seriously threatened. I can tell you now, that if these Arabs were secular (like the Bedouins), they would all now be citizens of the united states of Israel.
PSS.
Hassan, please read the Ali Sina post. He?s Iranian too.