RIM shows PlayBook tablet, will not undercut iPad in price

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  • Reply 61 of 88
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    But there is no difference between the embedded version of QNX and the desktop version of QNX --- which has always exist for the last 30 years (i.e. web browser on a floppy disc).



    And there is no difference between the OS X kernel and the iOS kernel, which has been developed off MachOS since the late 1970's, making the tech tree around 30+ years mature. Got another poorly crafted comparison we can break?
  • Reply 62 of 88
    nhtnht Posts: 4,487member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    That's like saying 512kb is enough.



    No, this is like saying when I have $1M I don't need to worry about saving every last penny.



    Besides, saving a few MB here and there with QNX when you just slapped AIR on your platform is like getting a diet coke to go along with your triple patty burger and super sized fries to save a couple calories.



    Quote:

    It's not like they can't run it on single core --- the Playbook has been demoing with one hand tied behind their back.



    Then why isn't RIM using the Playbook OS in phones before dual core A9s Blackberries?



    It can run...it just can't run well.



    Hint: It's not QNX's fault.
  • Reply 63 of 88
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    QNX implements actionscript classes natively in C/C++.



    Frankly, I don't get it. How can an operating system implements (or is it transform/pre-compile?) a scripting language into high level language, and furthermore you called it native?



    Every scripting language of course must have its interpreter in native machine language (ARM in this case). By using scripting language, it adds inefficiency, so more powerful CPU and more RAM is needed. Why PlayBook needs dual core 1Ghz CPU and 1Gb memory? Because Flash and AIR are not efficient, but they need tons of application for PlayBook, and they think this will lure mass of Flash/AIR programmer.
  • Reply 64 of 88
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BuffyzDead View Post






    Why must we always suffer some kind of childish outburst like this? RIM never said this was going to kill the iPad. They're trying to stay relevant and grab a piece of the tablet pie. I can't say that I blame them. Heaven forbid that they try to survive rather than just lay down and die. It doesn't look like they'll succeed, but at least they're trying. Do try to act like an adult rather than expressing the first foolish reaction that comes to mind.
  • Reply 65 of 88
    aizmovaizmov Posts: 989member
    I didn't realize how small 7" tablets were!
  • Reply 66 of 88
    Nobody in their right mind would buy a Blackberry anything. They are total crap made by faceless suits.
  • Reply 67 of 88
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,991member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post


    I didn't realize how small 7" tablets were!



    Not to mention how much screen space a keyboard takes up in landscape mode on a narrow wide screen.
  • Reply 68 of 88
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    The need to play the hardware-specs trump card is becoming antiquated.



    You don't know what you are talking about!!!



    IPads most significant shortcomings are with it's Hardware. There is far to little RAM, even the iPhone has twice as much. The CPU itself is slow relative to what you can get onthe desktop even five years ago.

    Quote:

    While I'm sure faster hardware can make badly-written software seem to run better, in the end it comes down to optimization and taking to time to polish and do everything that one can do to get everything running fluidly.



    What does one do when that has taken place and the software is still slow or doesn't have enough RAM to operate correctly? Your point of view is elitist BS and does not reflect the world we live in.

    Quote:

    Where mobile devices are concerned, Apple has proved to me that it is not important the Ghz speed, or how many cores a CPU has, only that engineers have taken the time to get the two aspects (hardware and software) to complement each other.



    Really to me it looks like Apple has proven the old adage about a sucker being born every minute. The certainly have done a good job of optimizing but it is very apparent that iOS has already outgrown the initial waves of iPhone hardware. Your statement is so silly in the context of what hardware is required to run the current version of iOS as to be a joke.

    Quote:

    RIM at least has a better shot than the other players.



    This I agree with. However they need to get a C/C++ development kit out fast. In any event QNX is nothing to sneeze at, it has been around a very very long time running critical systems. Of course the big issue is getting a suitable GUI running on top of it while navigating the patent minefield.

    Quote:

    Like Apple, they appear to be in control of both the hardware and software. The disadvantage they have (IMHO) is that their software support is lacking to say the least, and they certainly do not have the software engineering talent that is comparable to what Apple has. This is where I think RIM will fail.



    This is an issue and frankly they will not have long after the tablets release to offer up native C/C++ apps. I actually see the offering of flash on the device as a big mistake myself. They would have been better off to follow Apples lead and offer a few core native apps and a good web browser.



    All of that being said though it does appear to be the best vision yet for an iPad competitive product. The potential is there to attrack a bunch of smart developers. Where as the Java platforms seem to attrack hacks and half assed programmers.

    Quote:

    It's difficult to try matching Apple's offerings at the same price points due to Apple's ability to control the economies-of-scale. They have so much clout in obtaining all the components at the best prices. It leaves everyone else picking up the breadcrumbs that are left over.



    This is BS as the iPad is grossly overpriced. Especially when you look at the models with more Flash. The incremental upgrades don't cost that much retail much less in production quantities.



    In fact I suspect Apple might try to do something like this when iPad 2 comes out. They could knock $100 off the price of iPad 1 and introduce iPad 2 at the same price points. At each of those price points they can easily double the installed flash. An iPad with a significantly reduced price would prevent undercut Apple and the original price points allow for a far more powerful platform to attack the other makers with.



    The only problem here is that app store will be quickly flooded with apps requiring the additional memory of iPad 2. The biggest impact iPad 2 will have is to make iPad 1 look pathetic and do so quickly.
  • Reply 69 of 88
    daharderdaharder Posts: 1,580member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post


    Around this time is when we should start comparing the PlayBook to the iPad 2, not today's iPad.



    {insert Jobs' Wayne Gretzky quote here}



    Maybe we could if the iPad 2 was actually available for 'comparison'...
  • Reply 70 of 88
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    The number one issue is that flash/AIr will attack the wrong element to the platform. It is sort of like what happens when a street walker starts standing on the corner downtown.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jz1492 View Post


    PlayBook is nothing more than a repackage of the QNX + Adobe Air embedded platform, originally intended for vertical applications in the automotive, industrial, medical and other industries --i.e. inside limited purpose devices.



    If you follow Apples model a tablet is a limited purpose device!

    Quote:

    QNX Automotive PDF



    No wonder they can be showing all these demos so early. Definitely a forte of Flash.



    What bothers me is that we get as users a bunch of crappy flash apps on the platform. It might hold them over until they can get a real C/C++ SDK out but I would fear developping a bad reputation. Further I'd like to see them completely dump Java support. The combo of flash, JavaScript & C/C++ ought to cover every level of developer from the idiot to the PHd.

    Quote:

    But the big question remains whether the QNX embedded platform is suitable as a general purpose computing device.



    Why not? For this type of device they would have to do a new GUI anyways.

    Quote:

    With what we've seen in those demos, I don't think we have an answer. \



    Well of course not. However in the long run I see this as a platform that has a lot of potential. The platform biggest challenge will be attempting to properly power the flash/Air environment while managing the battery. Apples approach was to reject flash but it looks like RIM will optimize for it. It should be noted that for the first couple of iPhones Apple simply didn't have the hardware to run flash.



    To that end the first release might look like a train wreck, but if we are honest with ourselves the first few releases of iOS where wanting too. RIM needs however to be able to cover the basic app needs with native apps at release. By basic app needs I mean a solid web browser, a calendar, an e-mail client, media client(movies & audio) and some sort of notes mini database app. These have to be there and they need to be snappy native apps. Having these in place at launch is critical as they will hOld many user over until native apps arrive.
  • Reply 71 of 88
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    [QUOTE=Dick Applebaum;1765504]Isn't that a spec rather than a benefit?



    Also, doesn't the smaller footprint result, to a large degree, from: a) the ARM architecture; b) unneeded hardware removed (drivers, HDD, OD); c) economies of SOC packaging (ala the A4); d) optimization and packaging of the OS for the target devices (ala iOS).

    [quote]

    How about yes & no!



    ARM in and of itself has little to do with a smaller foot print as you can run Linux and Unix there. You might make the arguement that SoC packaging results in smaller OSes due to less hardware to support but that is a mistake too. Again there are distributions of Linux that run on SoC hardware.



    You do hit upon one thing though that is important that is tailoring the OS to support the target Hardware precisely. Realtime OSes can be tailored to support only the parts of the system needed to accomplish a task.

    Quote:

    I am serious here -- A RTOS has advantages/benefits when monitoring/managing a lot of rapid realtime activity in an automobile, router, etc. But, what does that capability bring to an iPhone or a tablet?



    For most user level stuff it brings nothing. QNX though brings it's long history with it without the baggage of Linux. QNX should allow them to quickly tailor the OS to the hardware which is a big advantage.



    Due to it's realtime nature QNX may allow the main CPUs to take on the tasks often done with dedicated/embedded ARM chips say in the iPhone (Someone once indicated that there are in reality 6 ARM chips in iPhone. I don't know if that is accurate but it is possible. QNX, with the right hardware could allow the tablet to eliminate these support processors and deal with data directly.

    Quote:

    Specifically, what can be done better, faster with a RTOS on the kinds of things a smart phone or a tablet can practically perform?



    Well if RIM had the scratch to do it, they could do a custom SoC with much of the I/O managed directly by the OS. For example get rid of the baseband processor. From the user perspective they might be able to better respond to user inputs.



    The interesting thing here with Apples A4 approach is this do they have the volume to really justify the development of A4 and the follow ons over the next few years. Especially when we talk consummer priced hardware. The current A4 is a trivial design in many respects with the potential for even more stuff on board. The question becomes wil they end up doing more with the on chip CPUs as opposed to embedded chips.



    If you look back at the PC industry this is what happened to modems. Initially they where pretty smart devices. Then pretty quickly software based modems came into play. These lowered modem costs at the expense of CPU cycles. In any event QNX should have potential here with modern day analogs.



    In the end QNX much like Linux can be transparent to the user. In a well design GUI you should not have to see the OSes dirty underthings. Ideally in a web browser you would not see any difference between that browser running in a QNX based OS, Windows or Linux. In the end what we are hopping for is a somewhat open system that leverages the stable QNX architecture.
  • Reply 72 of 88
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    You touch upon the issue of schedulers which is an important concept to grasp or at least understand some what. OS schedulers are many and can have significant impacts on various workloads. For those that follow Linux they have taken various approaches over the years. These approaches can favor one type of usage over others all without changing vast parts of the kernel.



    For tablets, Apple seems to have a complex sceduler for iOS. At least it seems like it would be complex to handle all the different multitasking 4.2 now supports.



    Skipping back to Linux you can get a realtime kernel to run under Linux so you end up with multiple schedulers.



    As a side note back in the day of the Mini computer I work on systems buoy on top of a DEC platform that is frankly kinda strange when comPared to today's OSes. The OAS was choosen simply because the programmers liked the tools.



    What this highlights is that QNXs realtime nature probably doesn't mean much. It is the tools that make or break the system. In part RIMs mad rush to QNX is likely to be driven in part by seeing many of the components they need there ready to go. In otherwords schedulers, realtime support and other stuff probably didn't come into play when the purchase decision was made. Rather the over riding factor was likely time to market and having a clear ownership of IP. IP is no small thing here either as Java is a mess, Linux has the horrors of the GPL and Windows has all the direction of a sailboat without a rudder.



    So now RIM has a system where they own the IP, can control direction and be flexible enough to support a variety of users. There only real issue is getting past Flash/Air.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    This is untrue. A RTOS is defined as a OS that can provide deterministic timing. There are fast RTOS and slow ones. A general purpose OS can outperform a slower RTOS.



    The performance of an RTOS is generally measured by it's worst case task response time...not best case or even average case throughput. This is because you typically won't use an RTOS unless you have a hard Real Time requirement that must be met and you analyze performance based on that worst case time (using RMA).



    So the difference is an RTOS will guarantee that a task will happen within it worst case time including all preemption latency, context switch time, yada yada yada.







    This depends on how the scheduler is designed. Different scheduler algorithms produce different results for when processes get preempted. Many RTOS will starve lower priority processes to insure critical tasks meet their time deadline. Most GP OS have some kind of fairer scheduler.







    Ah...no. I wish this was a basic characteristic of an RTOS because I spent too many late nights helping hand tune VxWorks kernels in a past life. It was seriously un-fun and I wasn't the poor schmuck actually assigned to do this but the app developer making sure that something critical didn't get hosed with a specific configuration change to improve performance.



  • Reply 73 of 88
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    It is the tools that make or break the system.



    Bingo. QNX has a good reputation there, but I'm not sure that translates well into also presenting a good GUI layer, especially since the CEO recently said something about not focusing on developing/finishing the OpenGL and ARM native developer tools in the foreseeable future, that Flash and HTML5 were good enough.



    Apple tried the rich web app game with iPhone 1 and that just wasn't good enough, HTML5 is not ready to take up that much responsibility yet even though it shows promise. I don't see how RIM can think it is unless the upper management is really that technically daft.
  • Reply 74 of 88
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    Bingo. QNX has a good reputation there, but I'm not sure that translates well into also presenting a good GUI layer, especially since the CEO recently said something about not focusing on developing/finishing the OpenGL and ARM native developer tools in the foreseeable future, that Flash and HTML5 were good enough.



    Apple tried the rich web app game with iPhone 1 and that just wasn't good enough, HTML5 is not ready to take up that much responsibility yet even though it shows promise. I don't see how RIM can think it is unless the upper management is really that technically daft.



    Native C/C++, openGL ES 2.0 tools in next month in January 2011.



    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/rims-p...e-shines/42508
  • Reply 75 of 88
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Native C/C++, openGL ES 2.0 tools in next month in January 2011.



    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/rims-p...e-shines/42508



    Yeah, maybe. But this is what the CEO is saying: http://mashable.com/2010/11/16/rim-ceo-on-apps/. That's an awful top heavy dissing of the Native SDK priority right there.



    Quote:

    “publish native to the BlackBerry without writing any native code.”



    WTF does that meaN?
  • Reply 76 of 88
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    Yeah, maybe. But this is what the CEO is saying: http://mashable.com/2010/11/16/rim-ceo-on-apps/. That's an awful top heavy dissing of the Native SDK priority right there.



    WTF does that meaN?



    In the same interview, he also talked about gaming companies can use QNX's native stuff on the Playbook.



    Quote: "QNX has a bunch of native development tools. Those that are working with it say, gaming companies say it has more power than a gaming console because you can use web tools."



    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/RIM-CE...html?x=0&.v=13
  • Reply 77 of 88
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    In the same interview, he also talked about gaming companies can use QNX's native stuff on the Playbook.



    Quote: "QNX has a bunch of native development tools. Those that are working with it say, gaming companies say it has more power than a gaming console because you can use web tools."



    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/RIM-CE...html?x=0&.v=13



    And if you believe that gem I suggest you invest heavily in the Penny Stock offerings found in a lot of spam recently.



    Web capability is NOT how you make a powerful gaming experience for a native app. The latency! It kills anything considered power in gaming! The web has a place in many games, but not as part of core gameplay unless the game is specifically designed for the web and written in a web-centric browser-managed language.



    The statement is just another wonderful example of how technically inept this CEO is. He has absolutely no idea of when his mouth spouts stuff that his engineering team is groaning about. He's a business guy, not a technical guy, a known high risk for the company kiss of death in the high tech industry. And his Co-CEO who does have a technical background has done absolutely nothing since September to fix any of the technical gaffes. All he does is spout fruffery and hold seemingly inoperative prototypes on stage.
  • Reply 78 of 88
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    And if you believe that gem I suggest you invest heavily in the Penny Stock offerings found in a lot of spam recently.



    Web capability is NOT how you make a powerful gaming experience for a native app. The latency! It kills anything considered power in gaming! The web has a place in many games, but not as part of core gameplay unless the game is specifically designed for the web and written in a web-centric browser-managed language.



    The statement is just another wonderful example of how technically inept this CEO is. He has absolutely no idea of when his mouth spouts stuff that his engineering team is groaning about. He's a business guy, not a technical guy, a known high risk for the company kiss of death in the high tech industry. And his Co-CEO who does have a technical background has done absolutely nothing since September to fix any of the technical gaffes. All he does is spout fruffery and hold seemingly inoperative prototypes on stage.



    He didn't say that web tools are powerful --- he said that it is more powerful when compared to gaming consoles which lack web tools at their disposal. You don't have to use it, but it's there if you ever need it.
  • Reply 79 of 88
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    He didn't say that web tools are powerful --- he said that it is more powerful when compared to gaming consoles which lack web tools at their disposal. You don't have to use it, but it's there if you ever need it.



    You don't get it. Saying something and it's truth are two totally different things. I deal with these technologies on a daily basis and the RIM co-CEO's original statement was entirely incorrect for the reasons I stated previously.



    Not to mention I don't think anyone has a gaming console or RIM referenced device that doesn't already have a web presence for the appropriate content. And none of them claim it adds to their power.



    Web tech in the OpenGL using space adds to connectivity, and you manage the latency in that connectivity in ways that limit the ultimate power of the application. There is no escaping that, it is a fundamental property of network connected gaming.
  • Reply 80 of 88
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    You don't get it. Saying something and it's truth are two totally different things.



    You don't get it --- it's just PR speak. Sure that there is a lot of hype and garbage in them --- but to spin it as these people are morons that not totally true either. Action speaks louder than words --- just wait for a month and see if there is a native sdk.



    It's like how RIM got slammed by evasive talking about how the Playbook can't "tether" without a Blackberry. Well, do you want the Steve Jobs speak? Apple will not support a wifi-only ipad to tether an iphone --- not by wifi, not by bluetooth. You can go and buy the ipad with a mifi from Verizon. You can go and jailbreak your iphone/ipad to give you the ability to tether the ipad, but then you are violating AT&T's terms of service.
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