Ok, I have acquired some more (very interesting) information to support the iDock speculation from iPoding.com. Here it is:
1. The iPod has a socket inside that is currently USELESS! That's not an accident.
2. The iPod has the ability to fully burn a cd on a firewire CD-R drive with out a computer, i.e. standalone.
3. The iPod has code for a remote control, not included with the iPod. This seems to imply an intended use of the iPod from afar i.e. accross the room while the iPod is hooked up to the home theater, or as a presentation device for your meeting.
We don't know exactly what this entails for sure, but one thing IS FOR CERTAIN!!!: The full functionallity of the iPod has not yet been realized/admitted by Apple.
The iPod will, repeat WILL absolutely be more functional than it already is. ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
This is so obviously the future of the iPod, it amazes me that anyone should think otherwise!
Apple have seen where the PDA market is going (can you say 'mobile phone') and they don't want to be competing in that cut-throat space; Yet, the iPod is one of the most powerful PDA platforms out there! (2 x ARM processors, 1 x Motorola DSP, 32 megs RAM, 5 gig disc), what's all that for?
The iPod is to become your personal 'space' where all your stuff resides; files, music, pictures, video etc. This is a long term project which is why at the moment 5 gigs is a little small and $399 a little expensive. But they have got away with it and it is selling in sufficient numbers. The form factor was the most important aspect to get right.
I don't know whether the DSP is for MPEG2 decoding or whether a DV decoding chip in an iDock is required but you will DEFINITELY be playing out movies from the iPod at some point. This also raises the whole TiVo possibility of a timed DVR, however that issue just got a little uglier with Sonic Blue's recent court victory.
I think the next two things likely to happen are a) the full support of booting from, (or at least 'user profiles' ) iPod into OS X and b) the long awaited iPhoto app and the playback of photo albums on to tv via a dock.
Think about this: when to use your laptop? When you are on your own working and surfing. What do you do with it when you are with work colleagues, friends, family? You present stuff to them and share; thats what the iPod is for.
[quote]But what if the iPod were used to display PHOTOs? It's the perfect device for it. Just dump all your digital photos into the iPod while on vacation, and you don't need expensive flash ram or any BS like that. All it would need is an adaptor to read flash cards.<hr></blockquote>
Funny you should say that. I've always assumed that one of the next digital hub devices would be a small, simple digital camera done iMac style, with a simple interface, and a firewire port. The camera would prolly have a compact flash slot, but the big thing would be the ability to offload all of that data to your iPod so you could keep on shooting in the field. There would probably be an option to have it as the primary storage mechanism as well, with the iPod sitting in your pocket, connected via firewire while you shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.
I really don't think we will see either cameras or camcorders from Apple. These are both very competitive and mature markets that now require huge R&D investment to make any sort of difference. Sony chips dominate both markets and you would need a deal with Sony to become a player.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.
<strong>I really don't think we will see either cameras or camcorders from Apple. These are both very competitive and mature markets that now require huge R&D investment to make any sort of difference. Sony chips dominate both markets and you would need a deal with Sony to become a player.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know, how about a digital camera that uses the iPod as a removable "film-back", just slide it in and you've got 5 GB photo storage. The camera itself could be relatively inexpensive, although knowing Apple it would have Zeiss precision-ground glass optics, a 5 megapixel resolution and cost $1000 w/out the iPod. : ) I can see that shiny metal back with the Apple logo becoming the back of a digital imaging device.
Why would I want the iPod to be a part of the picture here? I'd really rather just connect my stereo and TV into my mac. The iPod is synchronizing with my mac, so there's no benefit to having it in this little fantasy scenario.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, take the iPod out if it pleases you, you still have a hub to connect your a/v to your Mac. Connecting the iPod too is just a bonus.
Guys, this is real easy. The iPod is a 5G FireWire drive with a nifty little MP3 player as a bonus, that's the way you need to think about it. It's pretty safe to say that in the coming months the price may go down, and the storage may go up, let's say....10G. If you look at Apple's jobs site it says that they are looking for people on the iPod team with experience in things like MPEG video. So instead of thinking of the iPod as an MP3 player, think of it as a "Digital Media Storage Device" - with a dock, you could do 2 extra things:
1) When iPod is in the dock, you can use it with your home stereo system. I'm guessing the dock would even have a remote control.
2) When iPod is in the dock, you could use it as a TIVO-style digital video recorder (using any unused space on the internal HD). Or perhaps you could load your iMovies onto it and then watch those on TV.
The beauty? It's what everyone thought the iPod might be in the first place - a home stereo/video component that is related to the data from your computer. But, with a great extra: you take the iPod out of the dock, and you have a self-contained portable MP3 player. You take it to your friend's house and place it in HIS dock, and you have access to all your MP3's and any video recordings.
Sounds like a very great and "Appleish" idea to me.
That said, I don't believe it is actually anything under development quite yet. But an interesting idea nonetheless.
Ok, take the iPod out if it pleases you, you still have a hub to connect your a/v to your Mac. Connecting the iPod too is just a bonus.
<hr></blockquote>
Ugh. OK, let's take a look at this scenario and a mere 2 seconds of analysis will show that this is really unwise.
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? Is it ethernet or some other wire based technology? Most folks don't have their computer in the same room as their A/V system. A wire based connection is a bad idea...most people would avoid running a wire down the hallway and into the living room. So that would leave us with a wireless connection. The only option here is Airport.
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa? Remember that the computer and A/V system are in different rooms. I can't adjust the volume of my amp from my computer, and I won't really enjoy listening to music being played in another room, so it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. This won't be OS X on my TV. NTSC televisions don't have high enough resolution, HDTV is too many years and I don't want to have a keyboard and a mouse on my coffee table. This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. That means Apple needs to work up a new UI. It's all they can do to get OS X into shape--I really don't see Apple investing the time, energy and resources into this A/V GUI. I haven't even addressed issues of bandwidth over Airport. I don't think it's even possible for video data to be sent/received over Airport.
If the iPod is synchronized with my mac, what's the "bonus" of being able to connect it to this dock?
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--It's just not possible or practical right now. Sorry.
[quote]I really don't think we will see either cameras or camcorders from Apple. These are both very competitive and mature markets that now require huge R&D investment to make any sort of difference. Sony chips dominate both markets and you would need a deal with Sony to become a player.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.<hr></blockquote>
Apple doesn't construct the LCD screens it uses in its displays either. Somehow I don't think it's THAT big of a deal. I bet they release that, along with iPhoto software.
Wrong scenario: The DOCK is the connection to your AV system. The problem with the whole convergence thing is precisely as you have outlined - your Mac is nowhere near your AV - they are two different activities. Apple understands that (Steve even said it). The iDock is the bridge. Edit your music, photos, video on your iMac, write them to your iPod via firewire, take it home, downstairs, whatever. Stick it into the dock and play back on your huge TV and stereo. Obvious.
Ugh. OK, let's take a look at this scenario and a mere 2 seconds of analysis will show that this is really unwise.
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? Is it ethernet or some other wire based technology? Most folks don't have their computer in the same room as their A/V system. A wire based connection is a bad idea...most people would avoid running a wire down the hallway and into the living room. So that would leave us with a wireless connection. The only option here is Airport.
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa? Remember that the computer and A/V system are in different rooms. I can't adjust the volume of my amp from my computer, and I won't really enjoy listening to music being played in another room, so it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. This won't be OS X on my TV. NTSC televisions don't have high enough resolution, HDTV is too many years and I don't want to have a keyboard and a mouse on my coffee table. This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. That means Apple needs to work up a new UI. It's all they can do to get OS X into shape--I really don't see Apple investing the time, energy and resources into this A/V GUI. I haven't even addressed issues of bandwidth over Airport. I don't think it's even possible for video data to be sent/received over Airport.
If the iPod is synchronized with my mac, what's the "bonus" of being able to connect it to this dock?
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--It's just not possible or practical right now. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not possible or practical just because you don'y have answers to your questions? Just because you don't know how something will work doesn't make it unpractical.
This is specualtion about new products, we have no clue how they will work so that makes the topic upractical? Please
It's not possible or practical just because you don'y have answers to your questions? Just because you don't know how something will work doesn't make it unpractical.
<hr></blockquote>
Wow. What a compelling case you make . Your logic is so flawed I hestitate to even respond. You may as well be asking me to prove the iDock doesn't exist.
I'm bringing up significant real-world problems with this whole iDock thingy as envisioned here. Do you deny that it would need a GUI that would work on an NTSC TV? Perhaps you think you'll be able to read the display of your iPod from where it sits in the dock and it won't present a GUI on the TV. Sure hope you have good eyes.
The iPod needs to be much bigger to hold any reasonable amount of data. Make it 50GB not 5. OOh, idea - go a video store with your iPod, fill up on your evening's entertainment, go home and watch through your iDOCk.
Wow. What a compelling case you make . Your logic is so flawed I hestitate to even respond. You may as well be asking me to prove the iDock doesn't exist.
I'm bringing up significant real-world problems with this whole iDock thingy as envisioned here. Do you deny that it would need a GUI that would work on an NTSC TV? Perhaps you think you'll be able to read the display of your iPod from where it sits in the dock and it won't present a GUI on the TV. Sure hope you have good eyes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
HAHAHA, and I suppose your "I don't know how it will work so it's therefore unpractical is compelling'? haha, please. My logic is flawed because I stated that you can't make assumptions without all the info? hahaha. I am saying, read this slow and carefully before looking more foolish the next time you try to respon in a cunning and slick manner to my post, you have a fewbit of info, so how can you conclude anything? Wow, that thinking is flawed? hahaha
Since we don't have any facts and since we don't have tons of info I can't say how the GUI would look or work. That means the idea is unpractical? hahaha I hope you have good eyes as well, cause you don't seem to read very well
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Gigawire? (Which I've heard rumored MAY be a fast wireless connection.)
[quote]Originally posted by eliahu:
<strong>
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa?. . .it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. . .This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't remember the site I saw it on, but people were theorizing about one of the output jacks on the iPod. It was said that it appeared to be for some sort of remote control.
Umm... If we had the answers to all these questions, why would we be here instead of working at Apple or somewhere?
Just because you raised questions that are not currently answered doesn't mean they cannot be either: a) answered with a little bit of research or b) answered with new developement
I'd bet an answer could be developed, all the way to Apple waiting for HDTV to become popular. It is a ways off, but when it comes, they'd be ready. (Not saying that's what they're doing, it's only one possible answer)
From the "iDock" exists crowd: How do you explain Apple's "Digital Hub" concept without some Apple designed or friendly way of connecting TVs, Stereos, etc. Something needs to address that, or it's all crap.
video thru an ipod? before you get into anything else, the ipod has no ventilation to begin with! It totally counts on spinning up a little bit then dissipating the heat thru the other parts of the device before spinning up again. It'll fry after a few movies.
The iDock could be almost entirely self contained. It would make sense to be programmed via an onscreen GUI, as eliahu mentioned. However, eliahu is wrong about the UI being an obsticle to an iDock being developed. It's interface could be as simple as an onscreen guide, like what you see on TV's and VCR's today. Developing the the UI would be trivial. Use a VCR or DVD player onscreen menu someday and tell me if you think that UI took much time during the development stage of the product? Arguing that an iDock couldn't be a practical device because it needs an onscreen GUI is absurd. I believe TiVo uses the Linux kernel and a custom GUI. I think Apple has enough experience to develop a -very- streamlined GUI on top of Darwin for a TV display, they came up with the iPod UI didn't they.
So, on it own the iDock controls and/or connects the various devices. As a Firewire hub, it allows you to just hookup as many daisy chained hard drives as you like for storage (this is another benefit of an my imagined-iDock-built in Firewire hub), charge up you iPod or plug in your iLink port on you DVCamera to watch on TV. But, connected it to the Mac (wired or wireless), and it potentially allows for much more.
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--and it seems entirely possible and practical right now. And if the Mac is to become a real digital hub, an iDock like device is pretty much a necessity.
Comments
1. The iPod has a socket inside that is currently USELESS! That's not an accident.
2. The iPod has the ability to fully burn a cd on a firewire CD-R drive with out a computer, i.e. standalone.
3. The iPod has code for a remote control, not included with the iPod. This seems to imply an intended use of the iPod from afar i.e. accross the room while the iPod is hooked up to the home theater, or as a presentation device for your meeting.
We don't know exactly what this entails for sure, but one thing IS FOR CERTAIN!!!: The full functionallity of the iPod has not yet been realized/admitted by Apple.
The iPod will, repeat WILL absolutely be more functional than it already is. ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Nixholas ]</p>
Apple have seen where the PDA market is going (can you say 'mobile phone') and they don't want to be competing in that cut-throat space; Yet, the iPod is one of the most powerful PDA platforms out there! (2 x ARM processors, 1 x Motorola DSP, 32 megs RAM, 5 gig disc), what's all that for?
The iPod is to become your personal 'space' where all your stuff resides; files, music, pictures, video etc. This is a long term project which is why at the moment 5 gigs is a little small and $399 a little expensive. But they have got away with it and it is selling in sufficient numbers. The form factor was the most important aspect to get right.
I don't know whether the DSP is for MPEG2 decoding or whether a DV decoding chip in an iDock is required but you will DEFINITELY be playing out movies from the iPod at some point. This also raises the whole TiVo possibility of a timed DVR, however that issue just got a little uglier with Sonic Blue's recent court victory.
I think the next two things likely to happen are a) the full support of booting from, (or at least 'user profiles' ) iPod into OS X and b) the long awaited iPhoto app and the playback of photo albums on to tv via a dock.
Think about this: when to use your laptop? When you are on your own working and surfing. What do you do with it when you are with work colleagues, friends, family? You present stuff to them and share; thats what the iPod is for.
Funny you should say that. I've always assumed that one of the next digital hub devices would be a small, simple digital camera done iMac style, with a simple interface, and a firewire port. The camera would prolly have a compact flash slot, but the big thing would be the ability to offload all of that data to your iPod so you could keep on shooting in the field. There would probably be an option to have it as the primary storage mechanism as well, with the iPod sitting in your pocket, connected via firewire while you shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.
Sounds good to me.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.
<strong>I really don't think we will see either cameras or camcorders from Apple. These are both very competitive and mature markets that now require huge R&D investment to make any sort of difference. Sony chips dominate both markets and you would need a deal with Sony to become a player.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know, how about a digital camera that uses the iPod as a removable "film-back", just slide it in and you've got 5 GB photo storage. The camera itself could be relatively inexpensive, although knowing Apple it would have Zeiss precision-ground glass optics, a 5 megapixel resolution and cost $1000 w/out the iPod. : ) I can see that shiny metal back with the Apple logo becoming the back of a digital imaging device.
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: briareos ]</p>
<strong>Oh, you really got me there, Clive.
Why would I want the iPod to be a part of the picture here? I'd really rather just connect my stereo and TV into my mac. The iPod is synchronizing with my mac, so there's no benefit to having it in this little fantasy scenario.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, take the iPod out if it pleases you, you still have a hub to connect your a/v to your Mac. Connecting the iPod too is just a bonus.
1) When iPod is in the dock, you can use it with your home stereo system. I'm guessing the dock would even have a remote control.
2) When iPod is in the dock, you could use it as a TIVO-style digital video recorder (using any unused space on the internal HD). Or perhaps you could load your iMovies onto it and then watch those on TV.
The beauty? It's what everyone thought the iPod might be in the first place - a home stereo/video component that is related to the data from your computer. But, with a great extra: you take the iPod out of the dock, and you have a self-contained portable MP3 player. You take it to your friend's house and place it in HIS dock, and you have access to all your MP3's and any video recordings.
Sounds like a very great and "Appleish" idea to me.
That said, I don't believe it is actually anything under development quite yet. But an interesting idea nonetheless.
-S
Ok, take the iPod out if it pleases you, you still have a hub to connect your a/v to your Mac. Connecting the iPod too is just a bonus.
<hr></blockquote>
Ugh. OK, let's take a look at this scenario and a mere 2 seconds of analysis will show that this is really unwise.
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? Is it ethernet or some other wire based technology? Most folks don't have their computer in the same room as their A/V system. A wire based connection is a bad idea...most people would avoid running a wire down the hallway and into the living room. So that would leave us with a wireless connection. The only option here is Airport.
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa? Remember that the computer and A/V system are in different rooms. I can't adjust the volume of my amp from my computer, and I won't really enjoy listening to music being played in another room, so it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. This won't be OS X on my TV. NTSC televisions don't have high enough resolution, HDTV is too many years and I don't want to have a keyboard and a mouse on my coffee table. This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. That means Apple needs to work up a new UI. It's all they can do to get OS X into shape--I really don't see Apple investing the time, energy and resources into this A/V GUI. I haven't even addressed issues of bandwidth over Airport. I don't think it's even possible for video data to be sent/received over Airport.
If the iPod is synchronized with my mac, what's the "bonus" of being able to connect it to this dock?
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--It's just not possible or practical right now. Sorry.
Apple is a niche player and is looking to produce innovative products at the margins of these markets where it can dominate, make money and make the Mac platform more compelling.<hr></blockquote>
Apple doesn't construct the LCD screens it uses in its displays either. Somehow I don't think it's THAT big of a deal. I bet they release that, along with iPhoto software.
<strong>
Ugh. OK, let's take a look at this scenario and a mere 2 seconds of analysis will show that this is really unwise.
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? Is it ethernet or some other wire based technology? Most folks don't have their computer in the same room as their A/V system. A wire based connection is a bad idea...most people would avoid running a wire down the hallway and into the living room. So that would leave us with a wireless connection. The only option here is Airport.
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa? Remember that the computer and A/V system are in different rooms. I can't adjust the volume of my amp from my computer, and I won't really enjoy listening to music being played in another room, so it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. This won't be OS X on my TV. NTSC televisions don't have high enough resolution, HDTV is too many years and I don't want to have a keyboard and a mouse on my coffee table. This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. That means Apple needs to work up a new UI. It's all they can do to get OS X into shape--I really don't see Apple investing the time, energy and resources into this A/V GUI. I haven't even addressed issues of bandwidth over Airport. I don't think it's even possible for video data to be sent/received over Airport.
If the iPod is synchronized with my mac, what's the "bonus" of being able to connect it to this dock?
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--It's just not possible or practical right now. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not possible or practical just because you don'y have answers to your questions? Just because you don't know how something will work doesn't make it unpractical.
This is specualtion about new products, we have no clue how they will work so that makes the topic upractical? Please
It's not possible or practical just because you don'y have answers to your questions? Just because you don't know how something will work doesn't make it unpractical.
<hr></blockquote>
Wow. What a compelling case you make
I'm bringing up significant real-world problems with this whole iDock thingy as envisioned here. Do you deny that it would need a GUI that would work on an NTSC TV? Perhaps you think you'll be able to read the display of your iPod from where it sits in the dock and it won't present a GUI on the TV. Sure hope you have good eyes.
<strong>
Wow. What a compelling case you make
I'm bringing up significant real-world problems with this whole iDock thingy as envisioned here. Do you deny that it would need a GUI that would work on an NTSC TV? Perhaps you think you'll be able to read the display of your iPod from where it sits in the dock and it won't present a GUI on the TV. Sure hope you have good eyes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
HAHAHA, and I suppose your "I don't know how it will work so it's therefore unpractical is compelling'? haha, please. My logic is flawed because I stated that you can't make assumptions without all the info? hahaha. I am saying, read this slow and carefully before looking more foolish the next time you try to respon in a cunning and slick manner to my post, you have a fewbit of info, so how can you conclude anything? Wow, that thinking is flawed? hahaha
Since we don't have any facts and since we don't have tons of info I can't say how the GUI would look or work. That means the idea is unpractical? hahaha I hope you have good eyes as well, cause you don't seem to read very well
<strong>
So, my mac is connected to my A/V system via this dock thingy. How exactly is this connection established? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Gigawire? (Which I've heard rumored MAY be a fast wireless connection.)
[quote]Originally posted by eliahu:
<strong>
Now that I have this connection, how does this whole mess work? Do I control my A/V from my mac or vice-versa?. . .it seems like the best way for this to work is to control the computer from where the A/V system is located.
So how exactly do I interface with my computer via my A/V system? I would definitely need a GUI. . .This will need to work with a simple remote control (think TiVo) and read well on NTSC TV. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't remember the site I saw it on, but people were theorizing about one of the output jacks on the iPod. It was said that it appeared to be for some sort of remote control.
. . .and the plot thickens. :eek:
Just because you raised questions that are not currently answered doesn't mean they cannot be either: a) answered with a little bit of research or b) answered with new developement
I'd bet an answer could be developed, all the way to Apple waiting for HDTV to become popular. It is a ways off, but when it comes, they'd be ready. (Not saying that's what they're doing, it's only one possible answer)
From the "iDock" exists crowd: How do you explain Apple's "Digital Hub" concept without some Apple designed or friendly way of connecting TVs, Stereos, etc. Something needs to address that, or it's all crap.
So, on it own the iDock controls and/or connects the various devices. As a Firewire hub, it allows you to just hookup as many daisy chained hard drives as you like for storage (this is another benefit of an my imagined-iDock-built in Firewire hub), charge up you iPod or plug in your iLink port on you DVCamera to watch on TV. But, connected it to the Mac (wired or wireless), and it potentially allows for much more.
I like the idea of linking my mac and my A/V system--and it seems entirely possible and practical right now. And if the Mac is to become a real digital hub, an iDock like device is pretty much a necessity.
<strong>
Ugh.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ugh, I think you want to open your mouth before you engage your brain.
Digital hub, digital hub, digital hub...
Say it a hundred times.
Yes it is not going to fit in perfectly with everybody's setups as they are today, but introduce new tools and you set new paradigms.
I'm not saying this is going to happen, I just think that you dismissing it shows a complete lack of imagination.
-- Clive