I read on my iPhone all the time, but I don't purchase books from it.
The iPhone isn't the only iOS device that you can read books on, and it probably isn't the most popular ebook reader in the iOS ecosystem.
You are generalizing based on your experience. But anyway iPad is a good eReader and has a great browser to shop with. So why would iPad readers use a desktop? Please explain that one to me.
The iPhone isn't the only iOS device that you can read books on, and it probably isn't the most popular ebook reader in the iOS ecosystem.
You are generalizing based on your experience. But anyway iPad is a good eReader and has a great browser to shop with. So why would iPad readers use a desktop? Please explain that one to me.
Because the user experience would still be better at a desktop, just as it's better with iTunes on a desktop vs. App Store on the iPad.
Why? You have yet to show any evidence to the contrary. Until you do, your opinion (like mine) is based off of conjecture. The difference being is that mine is based off of how the iOS ecosystem works (based on impulse buys) and that Apple themselves (who most likely DO have numbers) are building the entire subscription model around encouraging this form of purchase.
Again, don't ask for evidence if you're unwilling to ever provide your own. I've LINKED you evidence before for other discussions only to have you claim that your browser couldn't "see" the yahoo finance page. Why should I go out and find anything if you'll just ignore it anyway?
Clearly you're missing the point then. iOS is not just for phones. It's an ecosystem of several devices that apple's going to work into their computers with Lion.
Apple may make an exception for Amazon, Netflix, etc. That's what should get you upset as a developer..... if they choose to enforce this policy unevenly. It means that if you have a service that helps Apple sell hardware you get a break. But if you're obscure or if Apple decides to compete with you, too bad, so sad.
Now you're just acting as an agent provocateur, basically arguing both sides of the issue.
Clearly you're missing the point then. iOS is not just for phones. It's an ecosystem of several devices that apple's going to work into their computers with Lion.
That's all you've done for the past several months. I figure, why waste my time arguing with you when I can get a similar (and far less time consuming) effect by stating the obvious.
That's all you've done for the past several months. I figure, why waste my time arguing with you when I can get a similar (and far less time consuming) effect by stating the obvious.
Thanks for having the patience and taking the time to contribute this enlightening argumentation, Menno. I'm clearly with you and akac's analysis in this issue. Anonymouse doesn't strike me as being particularly convincing.
Apple is forcing Amazon to replace one click purchasing through Amazon with one click purchasing through iTunes. Yet you somehow think people won't use this on a regular basis.
Yes some number of people will use it. Would the majority of Kindle users purchase books through iOS? Not very likely.
Quote:
Can you explain your logic? Please explain why you think somebody who probably consumes Kindle books mostly on their iPad and iPhone won't buy their books through the iPad or iPhone app?
They may. But iOS does not dominate the Kindle user base.
Making the conclusion that some number of iOS Kindle users making purchases through the iOS app will destroy the entire Kindle business model is a real stretch of logic.
Seeing as people are not buying Kindle books through the Kindle app right now. What impulse buy numbers are you citing to support your claim?
Along with iOS numbers you also would need the purchase numbers of every other device that people can use to consume Kindle services.
Our argument is that by the very fact that there are far more device options than simply iOS for Kindle use. iOS by itself is a small percentage of the over all mobile device market. That its not plausible for iOS alone to destroy the entire Kindle business model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menno
Why? You have yet to show any evidence to the contrary. Until you do, your opinion (like mine) is based off of conjecture. The difference being is that mine is based off of how the iOS ecosystem works (based on impulse buys) and that Apple themselves (who most likely DO have numbers) are building the entire subscription model around encouraging this form of purchase.
Yes some number of people will use it. Would the majority of Kindle users purchase books through iOS? Not very likely.
....
They may. But iOS does not dominate the Kindle user base.
Making the conclusion that some number of iOS Kindle users making purchases through the iOS app will destroy the entire Kindle business model is a real stretch of logic.
You are missing the point. What incentive does Amazon have to continue to service iOS customers if they actually lose money (or the margins are low enough not to be worthwhile) on the iOS ecosystem per sale? Sure, they're whole business model might not be in jeopardy, but would you keep servicing customers who cost you money even if you were profitable with all your other clients? That's utterly nonsensical business decision-making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Seeing as people are not buying Kindle books through the Kindle app right now. What impulse buy numbers are you citing to support your claim?
It's not that people aren't buying Kindle books on iOS. It's just that the rest of the Kindle ecosystem is much bigger than the portion on iOS. That's why the majority of their sales comes from elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Along with iOS numbers you also would need the purchase numbers of every other device that people can use to consume Kindle services.
Nobody has numbers here. But Amazon does. We can however, take some reasonably educated guesses based on logic and scraps of info we have. For example, we know that Kindle (the ecosystem) outsells iBooks 10:1.
But even all that is irrelevant. We can still assess the impact of a policy change based on logic. We know that Amazon pays out 70% of its revenue to publishers and we know that Apple wants 30% of gross revenue from all sales through iApps. That adds up to 0% gross revenue for Amazon. Even assuming that Amazon has no costs, I fail to see what business sense there is, in serving customers who make you no money at all.
And let's say that for some crazy reason Amazon saw fit to keep serving iOS customers at zero profit, they'll still get screwed over because their pricing model is now constrained by Apple's universal pricing requirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Our argument is that by the very fact that there are far more device options than simply iOS for Kindle use. iOS by itself is a small percentage of the over all mobile device market. That its not plausible for iOS alone to destroy the entire Kindle business model.
As I put earlier. This isn't about Kindle in its entirety. Thankfully (for them), they are big enough and diversified enough that Steve Jobs having a bad day won't destroy their company (unlike some of these smaller devs). However, with Apple working hard to destroy the business case for participating in the iOS ecosystem, it could be very hard for companies with an established business and pricing model (like Amazon) to continue serving iOS users.
... My big issue is that we're even having to talk about this. ...
The reason we're talking about this now is that people like Menno and Jetz are here spinning bullshit as fact, with their only intention to stir up shit based on numbers they make up and wild theories about how Amazon will make $0 because of IAP. That's what they do, and a look at their posting history will confirm that.
You're right, no one can know for certain exactly how this will all shake out, but I can guarantee that it doesn't mean that all of the Kindle books read on iOS devices add $0 in revenue to Amazon's coffers. Will they make as much as they might have if Apple allowed them to cheat on the developer agreement. Maybe not, but it it won't be $0 as claimed. Will there be impulse IAP buying if Amazon offers that? (They might not, their other alternative is to simply not direct you out to their website, and you buy your books by going there yourself or on your other devices where you read Kindle books.) Maybe, but, still, not every book read on iOS devices will be the result of an impulse IAP, that much is certain.
So, yes, people like Menno and Jetz have achieved their goal in that regard: causing irrational panic on tech blogs. And that's exactly what it is panic, where everything degenerates into the lynch mob mentality they seek to provoke. So, your choices are to either panic along with everyone else or point out the bullshit -- in this instance, that Amazon will make $0 in revenue from all books read on iOS devices -- for what it is.
... We can still assess the impact of a policy change based on logic. We know that Amazon pays out 70% of its revenue to publishers and we know that Apple wants 30% of gross revenue from all sales through iApps. That adds up to 0% gross revenue for Amazon. ...
First Amazon doesn't pay out 70% of it's revenue to publishers. Second, Apple is not going to get 30% of Amazon's eBook revenue. So it doesn't add up to 0% for Amazon. I must have missed the logic you were going to impress us with.
First Amazon doesn't pay out 70% of it's revenue to publishers. Second, Apple is not going to get 30% of Amazon's eBook revenue. So it doesn't add up to 0% for Amazon. I must have missed the logic you were going to impress us with.
I maybe misinterpreting things but I take it that Amazon pays out 70% to their content providers. If you know different, please do share.
Next, Apple is demanding 30% of gross revenue of any business Amazon attains through their iOS app. Nowhere have I said that Apple is getting 30% of Amazon's total ebook revenue. I have said that Apple is getting 30% of Amazon's iApp sales. Combine that with the 70% they are paying their content providers and they are making zero on the iOS ecosystem.
You can choose to be intentionally obtuse if you wish, but I think most people following this thread will understand what I am getting at: with this change of rules, Amazon cannot make money from iOS users.
That's not to say this is a good or bad thing. Business is business. Apple built their ecosystem. It's their choice to screw over developers if they wish to. I am merely pointing out that these rules will most certainly make iOS an untenable business proposition for some developers and service providers (like Amazon or Rhapsody or Netflix).
Comments
If enough big names like Amazon or Netflix or Hulu or Blockbuster leave, that's exactly what will happen. Don't you worry about that. ...
No one is going to be leaving. Don't you worry about that.
(Well, ok, Blockbuster might, but no one will notice.)
I read on my iPhone all the time, but I don't purchase books from it.
The iPhone isn't the only iOS device that you can read books on, and it probably isn't the most popular ebook reader in the iOS ecosystem.
You are generalizing based on your experience. But anyway iPad is a good eReader and has a great browser to shop with. So why would iPad readers use a desktop? Please explain that one to me.
... Consumers tend to purchase content on the device they'll consume it on. ...
Show us the evidence for that.
The iPhone isn't the only iOS device that you can read books on, and it probably isn't the most popular ebook reader in the iOS ecosystem.
You are generalizing based on your experience. But anyway iPad is a good eReader and has a great browser to shop with. So why would iPad readers use a desktop? Please explain that one to me.
Because the user experience would still be better at a desktop, just as it's better with iTunes on a desktop vs. App Store on the iPad.
So the iPad has a tiny screen?
Clearly, I was referring to phones.
No one is going to be leaving. Don't you worry about that.
(Well, ok, Blockbuster might, but no one will notice.)
We'll see.
They'd be morons to stay if they are losing money or the profit margins are so miniscule that it's not worthwhile.
Show us the evidence for that.
Why? You have yet to show any evidence to the contrary. Until you do, your opinion (like mine) is based off of conjecture. The difference being is that mine is based off of how the iOS ecosystem works (based on impulse buys) and that Apple themselves (who most likely DO have numbers) are building the entire subscription model around encouraging this form of purchase.
Again, don't ask for evidence if you're unwilling to ever provide your own. I've LINKED you evidence before for other discussions only to have you claim that your browser couldn't "see" the yahoo finance page. Why should I go out and find anything if you'll just ignore it anyway?
Because the user experience would still be better at a desktop, just as it's better with iTunes on a desktop vs. App Store on the iPad.
Give us evidence that proves this.
Oh wait, that's right. You don't believe in providing evidence, just demanding it so that you can later ignore it.
Clearly, I was referring to phones.
Clearly you're missing the point then. iOS is not just for phones. It's an ecosystem of several devices that apple's going to work into their computers with Lion.
Apple may make an exception for Amazon, Netflix, etc. That's what should get you upset as a developer..... if they choose to enforce this policy unevenly. It means that if you have a service that helps Apple sell hardware you get a break. But if you're obscure or if Apple decides to compete with you, too bad, so sad.
Now you're just acting as an agent provocateur, basically arguing both sides of the issue.
Clearly you're missing the point then. iOS is not just for phones. It's an ecosystem of several devices that apple's going to work into their computers with Lion.
Clearly, you're just trolling now.
Clearly, you're just trolling now.
That's all you've done for the past several months. I figure, why waste my time arguing with you when I can get a similar (and far less time consuming) effect by stating the obvious.
That's all you've done for the past several months. I figure, why waste my time arguing with you when I can get a similar (and far less time consuming) effect by stating the obvious.
Thanks for having the patience and taking the time to contribute this enlightening argumentation, Menno. I'm clearly with you and akac's analysis in this issue. Anonymouse doesn't strike me as being particularly convincing.
Apple is forcing Amazon to replace one click purchasing through Amazon with one click purchasing through iTunes. Yet you somehow think people won't use this on a regular basis.
Yes some number of people will use it. Would the majority of Kindle users purchase books through iOS? Not very likely.
Can you explain your logic? Please explain why you think somebody who probably consumes Kindle books mostly on their iPad and iPhone won't buy their books through the iPad or iPhone app?
They may. But iOS does not dominate the Kindle user base.
Making the conclusion that some number of iOS Kindle users making purchases through the iOS app will destroy the entire Kindle business model is a real stretch of logic.
Actually it'd be to the benefit of the publishers, not Amazon. Amazon is there to make money. They won't make money on iOS devices.
Along with iOS numbers you also would need the purchase numbers of every other device that people can use to consume Kindle services.
Our argument is that by the very fact that there are far more device options than simply iOS for Kindle use. iOS by itself is a small percentage of the over all mobile device market. That its not plausible for iOS alone to destroy the entire Kindle business model.
Why? You have yet to show any evidence to the contrary. Until you do, your opinion (like mine) is based off of conjecture. The difference being is that mine is based off of how the iOS ecosystem works (based on impulse buys) and that Apple themselves (who most likely DO have numbers) are building the entire subscription model around encouraging this form of purchase.
Yes some number of people will use it. Would the majority of Kindle users purchase books through iOS? Not very likely.
....
They may. But iOS does not dominate the Kindle user base.
Making the conclusion that some number of iOS Kindle users making purchases through the iOS app will destroy the entire Kindle business model is a real stretch of logic.
You are missing the point. What incentive does Amazon have to continue to service iOS customers if they actually lose money (or the margins are low enough not to be worthwhile) on the iOS ecosystem per sale? Sure, they're whole business model might not be in jeopardy, but would you keep servicing customers who cost you money even if you were profitable with all your other clients? That's utterly nonsensical business decision-making.
Seeing as people are not buying Kindle books through the Kindle app right now. What impulse buy numbers are you citing to support your claim?
It's not that people aren't buying Kindle books on iOS. It's just that the rest of the Kindle ecosystem is much bigger than the portion on iOS. That's why the majority of their sales comes from elsewhere.
Along with iOS numbers you also would need the purchase numbers of every other device that people can use to consume Kindle services.
Nobody has numbers here. But Amazon does. We can however, take some reasonably educated guesses based on logic and scraps of info we have. For example, we know that Kindle (the ecosystem) outsells iBooks 10:1.
But even all that is irrelevant. We can still assess the impact of a policy change based on logic. We know that Amazon pays out 70% of its revenue to publishers and we know that Apple wants 30% of gross revenue from all sales through iApps. That adds up to 0% gross revenue for Amazon. Even assuming that Amazon has no costs, I fail to see what business sense there is, in serving customers who make you no money at all.
And let's say that for some crazy reason Amazon saw fit to keep serving iOS customers at zero profit, they'll still get screwed over because their pricing model is now constrained by Apple's universal pricing requirement.
Our argument is that by the very fact that there are far more device options than simply iOS for Kindle use. iOS by itself is a small percentage of the over all mobile device market. That its not plausible for iOS alone to destroy the entire Kindle business model.
As I put earlier. This isn't about Kindle in its entirety. Thankfully (for them), they are big enough and diversified enough that Steve Jobs having a bad day won't destroy their company (unlike some of these smaller devs). However, with Apple working hard to destroy the business case for participating in the iOS ecosystem, it could be very hard for companies with an established business and pricing model (like Amazon) to continue serving iOS users.
... My big issue is that we're even having to talk about this. ...
The reason we're talking about this now is that people like Menno and Jetz are here spinning bullshit as fact, with their only intention to stir up shit based on numbers they make up and wild theories about how Amazon will make $0 because of IAP. That's what they do, and a look at their posting history will confirm that.
You're right, no one can know for certain exactly how this will all shake out, but I can guarantee that it doesn't mean that all of the Kindle books read on iOS devices add $0 in revenue to Amazon's coffers. Will they make as much as they might have if Apple allowed them to cheat on the developer agreement. Maybe not, but it it won't be $0 as claimed. Will there be impulse IAP buying if Amazon offers that? (They might not, their other alternative is to simply not direct you out to their website, and you buy your books by going there yourself or on your other devices where you read Kindle books.) Maybe, but, still, not every book read on iOS devices will be the result of an impulse IAP, that much is certain.
So, yes, people like Menno and Jetz have achieved their goal in that regard: causing irrational panic on tech blogs. And that's exactly what it is panic, where everything degenerates into the lynch mob mentality they seek to provoke. So, your choices are to either panic along with everyone else or point out the bullshit -- in this instance, that Amazon will make $0 in revenue from all books read on iOS devices -- for what it is.
... We can still assess the impact of a policy change based on logic. We know that Amazon pays out 70% of its revenue to publishers and we know that Apple wants 30% of gross revenue from all sales through iApps. That adds up to 0% gross revenue for Amazon. ...
First Amazon doesn't pay out 70% of it's revenue to publishers. Second, Apple is not going to get 30% of Amazon's eBook revenue. So it doesn't add up to 0% for Amazon. I must have missed the logic you were going to impress us with.
First Amazon doesn't pay out 70% of it's revenue to publishers. Second, Apple is not going to get 30% of Amazon's eBook revenue. So it doesn't add up to 0% for Amazon. I must have missed the logic you were going to impress us with.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...e-Terms-Kindle
I maybe misinterpreting things but I take it that Amazon pays out 70% to their content providers. If you know different, please do share.
Next, Apple is demanding 30% of gross revenue of any business Amazon attains through their iOS app. Nowhere have I said that Apple is getting 30% of Amazon's total ebook revenue. I have said that Apple is getting 30% of Amazon's iApp sales. Combine that with the 70% they are paying their content providers and they are making zero on the iOS ecosystem.
You can choose to be intentionally obtuse if you wish, but I think most people following this thread will understand what I am getting at: with this change of rules, Amazon cannot make money from iOS users.
That's not to say this is a good or bad thing. Business is business. Apple built their ecosystem. It's their choice to screw over developers if they wish to. I am merely pointing out that these rules will most certainly make iOS an untenable business proposition for some developers and service providers (like Amazon or Rhapsody or Netflix).