OK, here's what I don't get. Why are the 8500 and GF3/4 considered to be primarily gaming cards, and thus unnecessary for professional use? The 8500 and GF3/4 are better across the board: 2D, 3D, etc. It would seem to me that if I were doing professional graphics work I would want the best equipment available for the job, and that means buying say an 8500. So, neglecting the fact these cards aren't out yet, why shouldn't Apple offer them when they finally ship?
The argument that these cards aren't necessary for people that use their machines for work doesn't make sense to me. Heck, there are people out there that tear all of these cards out and toss them away just to drop in Matrox G550s. But hey, I'm not a professional graphic designer, what do I know. It just seems to me that if I were, I would want the best card for the job. And it would be nice for Apple to offer one of these. Especially condsidering they used to.
Calm down, they probably will once they become available and Apple finally has an updated MoBo. That new 4Ti4600 is supposed to use 8x AGP, so we'll see if Apple decides to put this on a MoBo or not.
Apple announced that the geForce4 Ti will be a BTO option starting in a month. I'm guessing that they didn't mention this last week because nVidia asked them not to, or the deal hadn't been hammered out 100% yet. Either way it'll be available, and at a lower cost than the geForce3 upgrade was last year at introduction.
Apple today announced that nVidia's GeForce 4 Titanium will be offered as a build-to-order option in its Power Mac G4 series. This news comes hot on the heels of Apple's revelation last week that nVidia's new mainstream GeForce4 MX chip is offered as standard issue on the revamped mid-range and high-end Power Mac G4 systems.
Apple indicated that the GeForce4 Titanium can pump out 87 million triangles and 4.9 billion textured pixels per second. The GeForce4 Ti-based card is being offered on a 4x AGP card equipped with 128MB of double data rate (DDR) SDRAM. Apple also noted that the GeForce4 Ti-based card comes equipped with both Apple Display Connector (ADC) and Digital Visual Interface (DVI) connectors, making it possible to attach two flat panel displays simultaneously -- although if you want to connect two Apple displays, you'll need an ADC to DVI adapter for one of them. The card will include a DVI to VGA connector if you want to attach an analog display, as well.
Last week Apple introduced to its professional customers a newly revamped line of Power Mac G4s with faster processor speeds. An 800 MHz G4 equipped with an ATI Radeon 7500-based graphics card is now the entry level model. A 933 MHz G4 with GeForce4 MX graphics is the mid-range system, and the new high-end system is a dual processor 1 GHz G4, also equipped with the GeForce4 MX card as standard equipment. Mac OS X is the default boot operating system for these new machines.
Apple said that the Geforce4 Titanium-equipped card is available as a build-to-order option on Power Mac G4s purchased through The Apple Store with systems shipping in March. It's a US$250 option on dual 1 GHz and 933 MHz systems, and it's a $350 option on the 800 MHz model.
If you've just purchased a Power Mac G4 or you have an older "QuickSilver" system, fear not -- Apple said that you'll be able to purchase a standalone card from them this Spring; the suggested retail price for that board is $399.
<strong>Calm down, they probably will once they become available and Apple finally has an updated MoBo. That new 4Ti4600 is supposed to use 8x AGP, so we'll see if Apple decides to put this on a MoBo or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can't man, I just can't. Sorry for going a bit OT, but I'm actually dying to get a new machine. My Rev. A iMac is getting a bit long in the tooth. And now that I'm out of school and have some disposable income, it's time to step up into the PowerMac line. I'm starting to get back into amateur photography, and would really like to start playing around with pics on my computer. So I'm thinking PowerMac with a nice big CRT. But I also enjoy playing games, so I'd like to get a nice card that has a bit of future capability in it for Doom3 and Halo.
<strong>What I don't understand is gamer and professional video cards differ? I know a lot about what games need in a 3D card, but I don't understand what a Pro card needs that is different -- they are usually just faster. For people that don't want to pay for high end 3D support Apple should just provide a BTO option (either to add a fast 3D card or to remove it).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the main thing is better OpenGL implementations. From a pure poly/sec or texels/sec standpoint, the gamer cards will blow away the pro cards, but I think the drivers for the gamer cards are only really good for high frame rate first person shooters. There are all sorts of things in OpenGL that the gamer cards don't do well, e.g. anti-aliased lines and sub-pixel accuracy.
Looking at a 3dlabs page about the Wildcat III, there are pro-graphics benchmarks where it easily beats nVidia and ATI.
I'm not sure what's in those benchmarks, but I'm guessing things like really complex scenes and higher order surfaces.
I know that for volume rendering the pro cards and SGI workstations are much better at doing 3-d texturing. Also the SGI's can do up to 12 bits per channel for color.
On the other hand, you're paying a lot for these esoteric features.
[quote]<strong>Apple also noted that the GeForce4 Ti-based card comes equipped with both Apple Display Connector (ADC) and Digital Visual Interface (DVI) connectors, making it possible to attach two flat panel displays simultaneously -- although if you want to connect two Apple displays, you'll need an ADC to DVI adapter for one of them</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pay much attention, this does NOT state that the two connectors can drive two monitors in dual-head mode ! It would rather mean mirror-mode because dual-head is usually a feature reserved to MX-variations of the cards.
"Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*\t/K I L L K I L L K I L L -- Apple Computer Inc./
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*\tÂ*TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 05, 2002Â*12:01Â*PM
Â*-Â*PRNewswire
We are advised by Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL) that journalists and other readers should disregard the news release, Apple Announces NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium for Power Mac G4 Line, issued earlier today over PR Newswire, as it contained some erroneous information.
<strong>I think the main thing is better OpenGL implementations. From a pure poly/sec or texels/sec standpoint, the gamer cards will blow away the pro cards, but I think the drivers for the gamer cards are only really good for high frame rate first person shooters. There are all sorts of things in OpenGL that the gamer cards don't do well, e.g. anti-aliased lines and sub-pixel accuracy.
Looking at a 3dlabs page about the Wildcat III, there are pro-graphics benchmarks where it easily beats nVidia and ATI.
I'm not sure what's in those benchmarks, but I'm guessing things like really complex scenes and higher order surfaces.
I know that for volume rendering the pro cards and SGI workstations are much better at doing 3-d texturing. Also the SGI's can do up to 12 bits per channel for color.
On the other hand, you're paying a lot for these esoteric features.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The nVidia board compared against in that press release is two product revisions old -- its a Quadro2. nVidia is just releasing the geForce4, which is considerably faster and more capable. So it looks like the Wildcat "Pro" card has these advantages:
- Faster anti-aliased line draws (possibly still true against the geForce4).
- More memory (~450 vs 128 in geForce4).
- Improved "gradient" fill rate (i.e. untextured), although they don't compare numbers just state that it is 20x faster than their previous card.
- 32 lights in hardware, compared to about 8 on older nVidia hardware (not sure what geForce4 supports in the fixed pipeline, but they could do 32 with vertex shaders at the cost of some poly performance).
I guess these are important for modellers and CAD programs... but I'd wager that nVidia is making inroads into these markets. You wouldn't go too wrong using the new geForce4 Ti as a "pro" video card.
I guess these are important for modellers and CAD programs... but I'd wager that nVidia is making inroads into these markets. You wouldn't go too wrong using the new geForce4 Ti as a "pro" video card.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference between Wildcat and Geforce is huge when it comes to high-precision poly-pushing without much eye-candy. Such as the type of OpenGL graphics used in mostly engineering applications.
The difference is less when it comes to DCC, because textures come into play. Professional OpenGL cards are quite a bit faster at drawing gouraud shaded high-poly objects in multiple viewports at once but gaming cards, and of course the Quadro line of Nvidia is vastly superior when it comes to multiple texturing.
If you compare the situation to what it used to be like 3 years ago, the improvement on the gaming cards is huge. If this trend continues you can expect gaming cards to render professional gear obsolete in a few years' time, especially in the DCC market. This has already happened with 3DLabs Oxygen series of cards. I don't know of any animators that would still buy those.
Comments
The argument that these cards aren't necessary for people that use their machines for work doesn't make sense to me. Heck, there are people out there that tear all of these cards out and toss them away just to drop in Matrox G550s. But hey, I'm not a professional graphic designer, what do I know. It just seems to me that if I were, I would want the best card for the job. And it would be nice for Apple to offer one of these. Especially condsidering they used to.
Look at this:
<a href="http://www.nvidia.com/calendar.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.nvidia.com/calendar.asp</a>;
Notice anything?
I say: GF4 BTO option, some GeForce 2 Go chip in the new PowerBooks?
G-News
<a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0202/05.applenvidia.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0202/05.applenvidia.php</a>;
[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
by Peter Cohen, [email protected]
February 5, 2002 10:20 am ET
Apple today announced that nVidia's GeForce 4 Titanium will be offered as a build-to-order option in its Power Mac G4 series. This news comes hot on the heels of Apple's revelation last week that nVidia's new mainstream GeForce4 MX chip is offered as standard issue on the revamped mid-range and high-end Power Mac G4 systems.
Apple indicated that the GeForce4 Titanium can pump out 87 million triangles and 4.9 billion textured pixels per second. The GeForce4 Ti-based card is being offered on a 4x AGP card equipped with 128MB of double data rate (DDR) SDRAM. Apple also noted that the GeForce4 Ti-based card comes equipped with both Apple Display Connector (ADC) and Digital Visual Interface (DVI) connectors, making it possible to attach two flat panel displays simultaneously -- although if you want to connect two Apple displays, you'll need an ADC to DVI adapter for one of them. The card will include a DVI to VGA connector if you want to attach an analog display, as well.
Last week Apple introduced to its professional customers a newly revamped line of Power Mac G4s with faster processor speeds. An 800 MHz G4 equipped with an ATI Radeon 7500-based graphics card is now the entry level model. A 933 MHz G4 with GeForce4 MX graphics is the mid-range system, and the new high-end system is a dual processor 1 GHz G4, also equipped with the GeForce4 MX card as standard equipment. Mac OS X is the default boot operating system for these new machines.
Apple said that the Geforce4 Titanium-equipped card is available as a build-to-order option on Power Mac G4s purchased through The Apple Store with systems shipping in March. It's a US$250 option on dual 1 GHz and 933 MHz systems, and it's a $350 option on the 800 MHz model.
If you've just purchased a Power Mac G4 or you have an older "QuickSilver" system, fear not -- Apple said that you'll be able to purchase a standalone card from them this Spring; the suggested retail price for that board is $399.
<strong>Calm down, they probably will once they become available and Apple finally has an updated MoBo. That new 4Ti4600 is supposed to use 8x AGP, so we'll see if Apple decides to put this on a MoBo or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can't man, I just can't.
<strong>What I don't understand is gamer and professional video cards differ? I know a lot about what games need in a 3D card, but I don't understand what a Pro card needs that is different -- they are usually just faster. For people that don't want to pay for high end 3D support Apple should just provide a BTO option (either to add a fast 3D card or to remove it).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the main thing is better OpenGL implementations. From a pure poly/sec or texels/sec standpoint, the gamer cards will blow away the pro cards, but I think the drivers for the gamer cards are only really good for high frame rate first person shooters. There are all sorts of things in OpenGL that the gamer cards don't do well, e.g. anti-aliased lines and sub-pixel accuracy.
Looking at a 3dlabs page about the Wildcat III, there are pro-graphics benchmarks where it easily beats nVidia and ATI.
<a href="http://www.3dlabs.com/whatsnew/pressreleases/pr02/02-02-04-wildcat_III.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.3dlabs.com/whatsnew/pressreleases/pr02/02-02-04-wildcat_III.htm</a>;
I'm not sure what's in those benchmarks, but I'm guessing things like really complex scenes and higher order surfaces.
I know that for volume rendering the pro cards and SGI workstations are much better at doing 3-d texturing. Also the SGI's can do up to 12 bits per channel for color.
On the other hand, you're paying a lot for these esoteric features.
dave
Pay much attention, this does NOT state that the two connectors can drive two monitors in dual-head mode ! It would rather mean mirror-mode because dual-head is usually a feature reserved to MX-variations of the cards.
<strong>
It would rather mean mirror-mode because dual-head is usually a feature reserved to MX-variations of the cards.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually that _was_ a feature I'd say. <a href="http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/02-05-2002/0001662448"; target="_blank">The announcement</a> (why isn't it on Apple's site?) clearly states:
[quote]The card provides both extended desktop as well as video mirroring,
and it enables standard VGA devices to attach via the included DVI to VGA
adapter.<hr></blockquote>
If this was not a feature MacCentral wouldn't have likely mentioned it.
[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: zoeph ]</p>
this came across the newswire today:
"Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*\t/K I L L K I L L K I L L -- Apple Computer Inc./
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*\tÂ*TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 05, 2002Â*12:01Â*PM
Â*-Â*PRNewswire
We are advised by Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL) that journalists and other readers should disregard the news release, Apple Announces NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium for Power Mac G4 Line, issued earlier today over PR Newswire, as it contained some erroneous information.
SOURCE Apple Computer Inc.
URL: <a href="http://www.apple.com"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com</a>;
<a href="http://www.prnewswire.com"; target="_blank">http://www.prnewswire.com</a>;
<strong>I think the main thing is better OpenGL implementations. From a pure poly/sec or texels/sec standpoint, the gamer cards will blow away the pro cards, but I think the drivers for the gamer cards are only really good for high frame rate first person shooters. There are all sorts of things in OpenGL that the gamer cards don't do well, e.g. anti-aliased lines and sub-pixel accuracy.
Looking at a 3dlabs page about the Wildcat III, there are pro-graphics benchmarks where it easily beats nVidia and ATI.
<a href="http://www.3dlabs.com/whatsnew/pressreleases/pr02/02-02-04-wildcat_III.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.3dlabs.com/whatsnew/pressreleases/pr02/02-02-04-w ildcat_III.htm</a>
I'm not sure what's in those benchmarks, but I'm guessing things like really complex scenes and higher order surfaces.
I know that for volume rendering the pro cards and SGI workstations are much better at doing 3-d texturing. Also the SGI's can do up to 12 bits per channel for color.
On the other hand, you're paying a lot for these esoteric features.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The nVidia board compared against in that press release is two product revisions old -- its a Quadro2. nVidia is just releasing the geForce4, which is considerably faster and more capable. So it looks like the Wildcat "Pro" card has these advantages:
- Faster anti-aliased line draws (possibly still true against the geForce4).
- More memory (~450 vs 128 in geForce4).
- Improved "gradient" fill rate (i.e. untextured), although they don't compare numbers just state that it is 20x faster than their previous card.
- 32 lights in hardware, compared to about 8 on older nVidia hardware (not sure what geForce4 supports in the fixed pipeline, but they could do 32 with vertex shaders at the cost of some poly performance).
I guess these are important for modellers and CAD programs... but I'd wager that nVidia is making inroads into these markets. You wouldn't go too wrong using the new geForce4 Ti as a "pro" video card.
<strong>
I guess these are important for modellers and CAD programs... but I'd wager that nVidia is making inroads into these markets. You wouldn't go too wrong using the new geForce4 Ti as a "pro" video card.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference between Wildcat and Geforce is huge when it comes to high-precision poly-pushing without much eye-candy. Such as the type of OpenGL graphics used in mostly engineering applications.
The difference is less when it comes to DCC, because textures come into play. Professional OpenGL cards are quite a bit faster at drawing gouraud shaded high-poly objects in multiple viewports at once but gaming cards, and of course the Quadro line of Nvidia is vastly superior when it comes to multiple texturing.
If you compare the situation to what it used to be like 3 years ago, the improvement on the gaming cards is huge. If this trend continues you can expect gaming cards to render professional gear obsolete in a few years' time, especially in the DCC market. This has already happened with 3DLabs Oxygen series of cards. I don't know of any animators that would still buy those.