Commercial airlines look to Apple's iPad for paperless cockpits

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  • Reply 61 of 90
    bagmanbagman Posts: 349member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    What up with the glossy screen complainers, not jumping in here and claiming they would never fly an airplane with a pilot using an iPad? Here is your chance to offer up more of your baseless complaining and ignorance.



    I only bring this up because if you are flying above the cloud cover and pollution you will have plenty of sunlight to bounce off things. Yet we have pilots successfully using multiple types of computing devices and even iPads. Maybe, just maybe the glare problem is more of an issue with the user than the device. Now I'm not saying glare or for that matter washed out screens aren't an issue, it is just that the user has some impact on how those problems impact the user.



    Glare off the screen is not as much of a problem as you would think, because you usually have it mounted on your leg (with a velcro strap) or on the console or co pilot seat, and you can easily tilt it if you get reflections. So-called "Glass Cockpit" displays have the same issues, but have been made more anti-reflective to cut down on this problem, and use better screens to mimimize off-angle viewing difficulties. Polarized glasses cause a few problems with certain displays, but are minimal for most applications.
  • Reply 62 of 90
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    As for us general aviation pilots, my friends and I (lots of certified flight instructors also) now use the ipad for teaching and flight planning. I am now going to buy the ipad2 (my first ipad), so that I can take advantage of the EFB capability. The very excellent Foreflight app will have all the necessary charts, and will finally show your plane on the chart and taxi diagrams, at much cheaper prices than Jeppesen. Being able to hotspot tether the ipad2 with my iphone4 makes a lot of sense, at very little cost.



    The only caveats (and these may be deal breakers) is that the ipad1 was very prone to overheating in the cockpit (have to keep it out of the sun). Also, general aviation pilots need to be aware that it can also be prone to overheating at high altitudes in non-pressurized environments (not much of an issue in commercial usage, of course, where cabin altitudes are controlled).



    Anyhow, when the ipad overheats, the screen goes blank - not good. Have not received an answer on how the ipad1 was certified with these very-real limitations.



    From what I've been told, an external GPS antenna (placed in the glareshield, and bluetooth tethered to the ipad) makes precision tracking available on the ipad, but, then again, you have panel-mounted avionics for this primary function, so it is not really necessary to have precision output on the ipad map, and the ipad is used as "situational awareness data" which is allowed by the FAA for any device that doesn't interfere with any other primary instruments, and which is properly mounted in the aircraft (most folks strap it to their leg, or place it next to them on the console or copilot seat).



    Anyhow, can't wait to get the ipad2, and start to get rid of the tons of paper that inhabits my cockpit, assuming the heat issues have been resolved (hope the thinner ipad2 will be less prone to overheating, but who knows?).





    Hey Bagman,



    If the iPad 2 overheats get a bumper.... just kidding.



    Seriously, when you get to use it for a while, report back on one of these AI threads...



    I am curious to see how it work in practice.



    ... 'course if you were flying an aircoupe, the cabin stays cool, 'cause you need to stick your hand out the window to make it slip



  • Reply 63 of 90
    technettechnet Posts: 9member
    Thanks for that great posting - really gives us an insiders view of this story!
  • Reply 64 of 90
    bagmanbagman Posts: 349member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Hey Bagman,



    If the iPad 2 overheats get a bumper.... just kidding.



    Seriously, when you get to use it for a while, report back on one of these AI threads...



    I am curious to see how it work in practice.



    ... 'course if you were flying an aircoupe, the cabin stays cool, 'cause you need to stick your hand out the window to make it slip







    Dick, is that your Ercoupe? Lots of folks are flying planes with bubble canopies, but they are hot as hell, so I like my air-conditioned Bonanza just fine. Can't stick my head outside, but I do ask that my friends who smoke do so outside the cockpit.
  • Reply 65 of 90
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    But wait......I thought that the iPad was just a toy?





    How many toys have FAA approval?



  • Reply 66 of 90
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    Dick, is that your Ercoupe? Lots of folks are flying planes with bubble canopies, but they are hot as hell, so I like my air-conditioned Bonanza just fine. Can't stick my head outside, but I do ask that my friends who smoke do so outside the cockpit.



    Nah! I don't fly.



    Long ago, when I worked night shift, I took flying lessons out of El Monte, CA. Mostly Air-knockers and an occasional supercub... the aeronca could land going backwards in a 50 mph wind.



    Had an old-time instructor who taught spins -- understand they don't teach that anymore...



    Bonanza -- I'm impressed! Nice plane. My Dad's boss owned one and flew it from Minnesota to Long Beach, CA & back.
  • Reply 67 of 90
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xsu View Post


    You have to have backups. Otherwise, if cockpit system loses power, you are screwed.



    If the a/c loses power, the loss of data is the least of your worries.



    And hey, while we're at it, can we have an app that uses the GPS position to alert the crew "HEY! DON'T FORGET TO LAND!"
  • Reply 68 of 90
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Bonanza -- I'm impressed! Nice plane. My Dad's boss owned one and flew it from Minnesota to Long Beach, CA & back.



    Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.
  • Reply 69 of 90
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eightzero View Post


    Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.



    Debonair.
  • Reply 70 of 90
    n1954679n1954679 Posts: 16member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ascii View Post


    Maps and such should be built in to the airplane cockpit displays, not on an iPad. And emergency procedures should be on paper (even if they are on iPad also) in case the battery is flat.



    Don't you think that they will be using this for their check lists and passanger manifests etc. I couldn't imagine that they would rely on an iPad for maps and emergency procedures.
  • Reply 71 of 90
    bagmanbagman Posts: 349member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eightzero View Post


    Ah, the fork tailed doctor killer.



    Nope mine is a turbo B36TC. Straight tail. Sweet.
  • Reply 72 of 90
    "Maybe you just wanna fly the plane yourself. Well good luck pressing take off, then auto pilot, then land." Carol - 30 Rock



    Maybe the iPad2 can fly the plane? ha
  • Reply 73 of 90
    touch1touch1 Posts: 22member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elian Gonzalez View Post


    Don't these airlines know that XOOM is Everything a Tablet Should Be?



    What is Xoom? Is that some liquid to clean floors?
  • Reply 74 of 90
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    I guess that last upward turning arrow represents the point of no return?



    That is the Missed Approach Point, or in this case the "Decision Altitude" where if you don't have the required elements of the runway in sight you would begin the missed approach which of course starts with a climb (the upward arrow) and then proceeds via the text description near the top of the chart or with the shorthand symbology cues in the small boxes just below the upwards arrow.
  • Reply 75 of 90
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Kubrick View Post


    "Maybe you just wanna fly the plane yourself. Well good luck pressing take off, then auto pilot, then land." Carol - 30 Rock



    Maybe the iPad2 can fly the plane? ha



    Countless times a passengers sticks there head in the cockpit and marvels, "I bet it just flies itself!" I just smile and say "pretty much" but think, "LOOK AROUND!" http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../9/1190987.jpg
  • Reply 76 of 90
    x38x38 Posts: 95member
    Interetingly, one of the first Electronic Flight Bags was a joint venture years ago between Apple and Boeing based on a Mac. IIRC, it was a Quadra 800. In fact, as I remember, I think it was the product for which the term EFB was coined.
  • Reply 77 of 90
    avalonavalon Posts: 2member
    I actually did a lot of the data work on EFBs for commercial flight. Just throwing out a few more details for those interested. I believe this stuff to be common knowledge.



    EFBs can be rated for use without paper charts, they have been certified in large commercial aircraft including the 777. Look up 777 images at Airliners.net and look to the right or left of the center console, you will either see a blank panel, or a glass screen. If it is a glass screen, it is a Class 3 EFB. This means it is installed in the instrument bay, draws power from the main bus etc. They may have wi-fi capabilities.



    Class 2 EFBs can draw power from the aircraft I believe, but need to be put away under 10,000ft. That is usually a mounted laptop. Same for Class 1 which probably would be iPad and other non-mounted laptop/tablet solution.



    EFBs do not control primary flight and are subject to less stringent rules, however they do carry significant certification.



    Notams etc. are PDF, but the charts themselves are proprietary images. While the update process is non-trivial (even by computer), taking out the human error for each manual, it is ultimately safer for the industry.
  • Reply 78 of 90
    This system will be INCREDIBLE when the ipad goes retina.



    The airline i work for (presently the world's largest following a recent merger) has been "closely studying" the "Electronic Flight Bag" idea for over ten years. Trouble is, our shatty management loves to trip over dollars to pick up dimes and will probably continue to do nothing.



    Meanwhile, countless pilots suffer torn rotator cuff injuries every year from lugging around heavy flight bags and throwing them in and out of our cockpits. Someone needs to quantify what this is costing the company in disability---because they certainly aren't concerned about making a change for the pilots' sake.
  • Reply 79 of 90
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by canyonblue737 View Post


    Countless times a passengers sticks there head in the cockpit and marvels, "I bet it just flies itself!" I just smile and say "pretty much" but think, "LOOK AROUND!" http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../9/1190987.jpg



    Dude, it's just like X-Plane! This should be easy!!! </kidding!!!>



    But seriously, that flight console does look pretty swanky.
  • Reply 80 of 90
    bagmanbagman Posts: 349member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Avalon View Post


    I actually did a lot of the data work on EFBs for commercial flight. Just throwing out a few more details for those interested. I believe this stuff to be common knowledge.



    EFBs can be rated for use without paper charts, they have been certified in large commercial aircraft including the 777. Look up 777 images at Airliners.net and look to the right or left of the center console, you will either see a blank panel, or a glass screen. If it is a glass screen, it is a Class 3 EFB. This means it is installed in the instrument bay, draws power from the main bus etc. They may have wi-fi capabilities.



    Class 2 EFBs can draw power from the aircraft I believe, but need to be put away under 10,000ft. That is usually a mounted laptop. Same for Class 1 which probably would be iPad and other non-mounted laptop/tablet solution.



    EFBs do not control primary flight and are subject to less stringent rules, however they do carry significant certification.



    Notams etc. are PDF, but the charts themselves are proprietary images. While the update process is non-trivial (even by computer), taking out the human error for each manual, it is ultimately safer for the industry.



    Interestingly, the iPad is not recommended over 10,000 ft, even though it is obviously not because of problems with disk drives, which can fail due to thinner air, but probably due to overheating (which Apple must have tested). Not too much of a problem for general aviation types, because most final approach segments are flown below 10,000 ft. I assume the FAA has tested ipads to NOT cause electronic interference, otherwise they would not have certified their use in common carrier aircraft, which operate under more stringent rules.



    I've never seen any interference from any type of electronic display in my small airplane, but understand why the FAA is slow to adopt any type of device to be used concurrently during the takeoff and landing phases, where airspace is more crowded, and interference more critical.
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