Why do you discard the larger display when reputed engineering drawings are making the rounds? Also I missed the package size difference. The die is much larger for the A5, but some of the difference can be made up in the POP. Do we have the size of the packaging?
I didn?t disregard the larger display rumours. For starters, I didn?t see that mentioned in the article so I didn?t see how it would be relevant.
Secondly, the only rumours I?ve seen on that have been a slightly larger display, but with the casing being the same size. IOW, the display would be closer to the edge of the case design but the footprint would remain the same.
Finally, Apple has been very strict about the displays to make it easier on them, 3rd-party devs, and by extension the customer. Even if they keep the same resolution but enlarge the display?s surface area a little you still end up with a different pixel density and they will have to include that in the SDK. I know many will say that isn?t a big deal but Apple has plenty of precedence showing that to be a big deal. That isn?t to say that it won?t happen, and I?d like that so long as the phone isn?t physically bigger, but that rumour is pretty weak at this point.
AI is indeed a great source of these kinds of details.
However, unless I missed it above, there wasn't much of a comparison between the a% and the Tegra except with respect to pricing and vague numbers.
I'd love to see a comparison with the Tegra. The fandroids go on about it as if it were a Cray supercomputer in a phone, but it doesn't look all that great. The A5 graphics performance shreds the tegra in the xoom:
Some of that may be poor optimisation on Honeycomb, but that has no effect on the end user. Processor wise sunspider scores seem to be similar, suggesting similar raw performance from the Cortex A9 based cores in the respective chips, though muddied by additional browser optimisations on Honeycomb, and OS level optimisations on iOS. I don't think the tegra has dynamic processor speed, so implementations using the A5 are likely to be i) as fast on normal compute tasks; ii) more efficient on battery; and iii) screamingly better on graphics. I'm just speculating though.
As an aside, the comments from Android fans defending the Xoom on the post linked to above are a scream
Tegra 2 has always an iffy processor from the beginning --- because it doesn't have NEON and the GPU was always questionable.
The Snapdragons have their own version of NEON (with double the bitrate than the NEON), but their GPU has always been iffy. OMAP4 has NEON and SGX540, but the GPU is clocked at 300Mhz whereas other manufacturer's SGX540s are clocked at 200Mhz.
Don't know whether the A5 has NEON or not --- have to wait for detailed x-ray of the chip.
The home server would be nice, and even a distinct possibility to replace the current Time Capsule.
Apple won't be doing an ARM based mac in the near future. I can see three reasons, all based on the fact that powerful though the A5 is relative to other ARM processors, it has nowhere near the power of the Intel desktop chips:
* they couldn't possibly run current mac applications under emulation
* mac application publishers are unlikely to recompile all their code for ARM to make universal binaries. It's technically probably straightforward, but...
* even if they did do such a recompile, the much more resource hungry mac programmes would run like treacle on the A5
As for the other uses on the list below the mac compatible, aren't they mostly just functions of a putative home server? Except for the MobileMe and cross-loading ideas, which have nothing to do with processors
Sorry, I didn't present that very well...
I edited the original as shown below.
I was referring to a HomeServer that would be Mac or PC compatible -- essentially a media/app server that would crossload or stream to iDevices and AppleTVs, while providing local backup and interface to a MobileMe cloud backup.
Think of it this way, wherever you are:
-- al of your iTunes store media purchases would be available to all your iDevices and computers (Mac or PC)
-- all of your app store purchases will available to your iDevices
-- all of your Mac app store purchases will be available to your Macs
-- any other home-created media or files could be backed up to the cloud from Mac or PC
I didn't want to call it this, but essentially is a local iTunes Server (including home movies and photos) with a cloud backup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
OK!
To get the price down, there are some things they can do to utilize the A5 chip:
1) iPhone, iPod Touch (obviously)
2) AppleTV 3
3) HomeServer/TimeMachine/iMediaServer
---- Mac or PC Compatible
---- Store iMedia (iTunes, iPhoto, apps) Content
---- Local Backup
---- Staged remote backup to MobileMe
---- Crossload to AppleTV and iDevices: Apps, Audio and Video
---- Stream to iDevices
4) Possibly a touch/stylus graphics tablet/control surface peripheral for the Mac (though I am hoping the iPad 2 can perform this function)
I was referring to a HomeServer that would be Mac or PC compatible -- essentially a media/app server that would crossload or stream to iDevices and AppleTVs, while providing local backup and interface to a MobileMe cloud backup.
Think of it this way, wherever you are:
-- al of your iTunes store media purchases would be available to all your iDevices and computers (Mac or PC)
-- all of your app store purchases will available to your iDevices
-- all of your Mac app store purchases will be available to your Macs
-- any other home-created media or files could be backed up to the cloud from Mac or PC
I didn't want to call it this, but essentially is a local iTunes Server (including home movies and photos) with a cloud backup
Siracusa just had a podcast on 5by5.tv about this, and I couldn't agree more.
It's really the missing piece of the puzzle / elephant in the room when it comes to a multi mac/ilife household.
If you've got 1 mac everything just works. If you have 5, there's always a series of work arounds that make things more of a PITA than they should be. They really need to get rid of the one library to 1 iPod/Pad limitation, or at least let you sync with libraries you've authorized with homesharing..
As an aside, the comments from Android fans defending the Xoom on the post linked to above are a scream
Every Android fan I meet is a hard core PC user and Apple hater ... I am actually beginning to feel pity for these people. They simply wouldn't admit Apple can do anything good if their life depended on it. They simply repeat "Apple's walled garden will ensure its failure" over and over!
Meanwhile, the news today that about half of all iPad 2 purchases were first time buyers gave me a sense of the future.
Every Android fan I meet is a hard core PC user and Apple hater ... I am actually beginning to feel pity for these people. They simply wouldn't admit Apple can do anything good if their life depended on it. They simply repeat "Apple's walled garden will ensure its failure" over and over!
ah, sad people, can't admit anything without falling apart?
gotta say i use both WINDOWS and OSX (a PC is a freaking PERSONAL COMPUTER) they both have their uses.... now if Apple made a product that was as durable as a thinkpad (also am i the only one who the new touchpads with out buttons hurt fingers with prolonged use? just wondering) however thats not gonna happen... making things thinner is not always better (what happens if someone steps of a macbook air, or it gets run over by a 13 ton truck?? 0.o)
but thats cause Lenovo (only other company ever consider buying a computer from besides Apple) demands a pretty large premium.... so it makes sense.
anyways, iOS is superior to most of what i have seen Android do. unless you are really into programing so they can root it and play around.
I didn?t disregard the larger display rumours. For starters, I didn?t see that mentioned in the article so I didn?t see how it would be relevant.
Secondly, the only rumours I?ve seen on that have been a slightly larger display, but with the casing being the same size. IOW, the display would be closer to the edge of the case design but the footprint would remain the same.
Finally, Apple has been very strict about the displays to make it easier on them, 3rd-party devs, and by extension the customer. Even if they keep the same resolution but enlarge the display?s surface area a little you still end up with a different pixel density and they will have to include that in the SDK. I know many will say that isn?t a big deal but Apple has plenty of precedence showing that to be a big deal. That isn?t to say that it won?t happen, and I?d like that so long as the phone isn?t physically bigger, but that rumour is pretty weak at this point.
Sorry wasn't really clear and missed the graphic which listed the package size and answered my question.
The actual dimension of the POP package is what Apple needs to find room for on the iPhone 5 board. The POP is now rectangular. The old A4 was a 14.1 x 14.1 square the new 14.3 x 16.7 rectangle so they can still fit the 14.3 and clear out for 2.6mm of board space on one side. I agree with changing the display size is unlikely but I think they can fit the new POP by reorienting a few chips on the board and still fit the other traces you showed in the photo of the iPhone 4 PCB.
120 mm^2 die size seems a bit on the large size. My experience in the semiconductor market is quite out of date (more than a decade ago), but the rule of thumb then was that you wanted to keep chips under 100 mm^2 as the costs per chip goes up quite quickly after that. (The cost of a wafer is roughly constant independent of chip size, as the size of a chip goes up, you get fewer of them on a wafer, and the likelihood of a silicon defect hitting a chip goes up, hence the cost per die increases faster than just the area of a die.)
Googling, I found that the Tegra 2 is only about 49 mm^2, fairly similar in size to the A4. So the semiconductor costs for a Tegra 2 would be less than the 49/120 (=~ 0.41) fraction of an A5. However, the packaging costs are probably pretty similar. I'm wondering if UBM Technologies is comparing the manufacturing cost of an A5 vs. the price of a Tegra 2, I doubt that the manufacturing cost of an A5 is only 67% more than the manufacturing cost of a Tegra 2.
ah, sad people, can't admit anything without falling apart?
gotta say i use both WINDOWS and OSX (a PC is a freaking PERSONAL COMPUTER) they both have their uses.... now if Apple made a product that was as durable as a thinkpad (also am i the only one who the new touchpads with out buttons hurt fingers with prolonged use? just wondering) however thats not gonna happen... making things thinner is not always better (what happens if someone steps of a macbook air, or it gets run over by a 13 ton truck?? 0.o)
but thats cause Lenovo (only other company ever consider buying a computer from besides Apple) demands a pretty large premium.... so it makes sense.
anyways, iOS is superior to most of what i have seen Android do. unless you are really into programing so they can root it and play around.
1) All of Apple?s trackpads have a physical button. If depressing it hurts your fingers then switch to tap setting.
2) Making something so robust that it withstand being run over by a Mac truck or hurled into the center of Sun "is not always better?. You have to make a tradeoff in order to make a product that is durable but still useful. Panasonic Toughbooks are considerably more durable than other notebooks, but they are designed that way. They are not what a typical consumer would want or need, especially at the premium for that ruggedness.
3) Why always this talk about Android can be rooted. When has iOS not been jailbroken allowing access to every part of the OS? You?d think that would be the best of both worlds for someone that says iOS is superior and wants access to the system.
Sorry wasn't really clear and missed the graphic which listed the package size and answered my question.
The actual dimension of the POP package is what Apple needs to find room for on the iPhone 5 board. The POP is now rectangular. The old A4 was a 14.1 x 14.1 square the new 14.3 x 16.7 rectangle so they can still fit the 14.3 and clear out for 2.6mm of board space on one side. I agree with changing the display size is unlikely but I think they can fit the new POP by reorienting a few chips on the board and still fit the other traces you showed in the photo of the iPhone 4 PCB.
Thanks. I assumed those dimensions were for the PoP. They surely have the width to do it, assuming they can make room for the chip for that extra 40mm^2, which I think they can.
Thanks. I assumed those dimensions were for the PoP. They surely have the width to do it, assuming they can make room for the chip for that extra 40mm^2, which I think they can.
I agree, given that the width difference is just 0.2mm (assuming they orient the chip so the 2.6mm larger side is along the board).
In fact, when you look at the A4 having 3.4mm space between die and edge of package on all sides, and A5 having 2.3mm and 2.1mm, with the smaller gap width-wise to come in just barely wider than A4, I would suspect that fitting on the iPhone 5's circuit board was a key design decision way back when.
Comments
Why do you discard the larger display when reputed engineering drawings are making the rounds? Also I missed the package size difference. The die is much larger for the A5, but some of the difference can be made up in the POP. Do we have the size of the packaging?
I didn?t disregard the larger display rumours. For starters, I didn?t see that mentioned in the article so I didn?t see how it would be relevant.
Secondly, the only rumours I?ve seen on that have been a slightly larger display, but with the casing being the same size. IOW, the display would be closer to the edge of the case design but the footprint would remain the same.
Finally, Apple has been very strict about the displays to make it easier on them, 3rd-party devs, and by extension the customer. Even if they keep the same resolution but enlarge the display?s surface area a little you still end up with a different pixel density and they will have to include that in the SDK. I know many will say that isn?t a big deal but Apple has plenty of precedence showing that to be a big deal. That isn?t to say that it won?t happen, and I?d like that so long as the phone isn?t physically bigger, but that rumour is pretty weak at this point.
I agree totally with your reply above.
AI is indeed a great source of these kinds of details.
However, unless I missed it above, there wasn't much of a comparison between the a% and the Tegra except with respect to pricing and vague numbers.
I'd love to see a comparison with the Tegra. The fandroids go on about it as if it were a Cray supercomputer in a phone, but it doesn't look all that great. The A5 graphics performance shreds the tegra in the xoom:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4216/a...p2-benchmarked
Some of that may be poor optimisation on Honeycomb, but that has no effect on the end user. Processor wise sunspider scores seem to be similar, suggesting similar raw performance from the Cortex A9 based cores in the respective chips, though muddied by additional browser optimisations on Honeycomb, and OS level optimisations on iOS. I don't think the tegra has dynamic processor speed, so implementations using the A5 are likely to be i) as fast on normal compute tasks; ii) more efficient on battery; and iii) screamingly better on graphics. I'm just speculating though.
As an aside, the comments from Android fans defending the Xoom on the post linked to above are a scream
The Snapdragons have their own version of NEON (with double the bitrate than the NEON), but their GPU has always been iffy. OMAP4 has NEON and SGX540, but the GPU is clocked at 300Mhz whereas other manufacturer's SGX540s are clocked at 200Mhz.
Don't know whether the A5 has NEON or not --- have to wait for detailed x-ray of the chip.
The home server would be nice, and even a distinct possibility to replace the current Time Capsule.
Apple won't be doing an ARM based mac in the near future. I can see three reasons, all based on the fact that powerful though the A5 is relative to other ARM processors, it has nowhere near the power of the Intel desktop chips:
* they couldn't possibly run current mac applications under emulation
* mac application publishers are unlikely to recompile all their code for ARM to make universal binaries. It's technically probably straightforward, but...
* even if they did do such a recompile, the much more resource hungry mac programmes would run like treacle on the A5
As for the other uses on the list below the mac compatible, aren't they mostly just functions of a putative home server? Except for the MobileMe and cross-loading ideas, which have nothing to do with processors
Sorry, I didn't present that very well...
I edited the original as shown below.
I was referring to a HomeServer that would be Mac or PC compatible -- essentially a media/app server that would crossload or stream to iDevices and AppleTVs, while providing local backup and interface to a MobileMe cloud backup.
Think of it this way, wherever you are:
-- al of your iTunes store media purchases would be available to all your iDevices and computers (Mac or PC)
-- all of your app store purchases will available to your iDevices
-- all of your Mac app store purchases will be available to your Macs
-- any other home-created media or files could be backed up to the cloud from Mac or PC
I didn't want to call it this, but essentially is a local iTunes Server (including home movies and photos) with a cloud backup
OK!
To get the price down, there are some things they can do to utilize the A5 chip:
1) iPhone, iPod Touch (obviously)
2) AppleTV 3
3) HomeServer/TimeMachine/iMediaServer
---- Mac or PC Compatible
---- Store iMedia (iTunes, iPhoto, apps) Content
---- Local Backup
---- Staged remote backup to MobileMe
---- Crossload to AppleTV and iDevices: Apps, Audio and Video
---- Stream to iDevices
4) Possibly a touch/stylus graphics tablet/control surface peripheral for the Mac (though I am hoping the iPad 2 can perform this function)
Milpitas? MILPITAS???
The armpit of Silicon Valley?
What's a Milpitas?
Now Tod...
Don't you remember one of the radio show hosts referring oi Mavis of Milpitas?
FWIW, "milpitas" is Spanish for "little corn fields"
Milpitas, California
... though, some would claim corn tassels resemple [long] blonde pit hair
No iPad 2 for you, today!
.
FWIW, "milpitas" is Spanish for "little corn fields"
Sorry, his story is better...
Sorry, I didn't present that very well...
I edited the original as shown below.
I was referring to a HomeServer that would be Mac or PC compatible -- essentially a media/app server that would crossload or stream to iDevices and AppleTVs, while providing local backup and interface to a MobileMe cloud backup.
Think of it this way, wherever you are:
-- al of your iTunes store media purchases would be available to all your iDevices and computers (Mac or PC)
-- all of your app store purchases will available to your iDevices
-- all of your Mac app store purchases will be available to your Macs
-- any other home-created media or files could be backed up to the cloud from Mac or PC
I didn't want to call it this, but essentially is a local iTunes Server (including home movies and photos) with a cloud backup
Siracusa just had a podcast on 5by5.tv about this, and I couldn't agree more.
It's really the missing piece of the puzzle / elephant in the room when it comes to a multi mac/ilife household.
If you've got 1 mac everything just works. If you have 5, there's always a series of work arounds that make things more of a PITA than they should be. They really need to get rid of the one library to 1 iPod/Pad limitation, or at least let you sync with libraries you've authorized with homesharing..
I bet Apple uses TSMC to fab A5 chips at 40 nm that wind up in the iPhone 5. The slightly smaller fab process will help the iPhone's battery life.
Actually the smaller display is what helps the iPhone's battery life. No need to change the process of the CPU.
As an aside, the comments from Android fans defending the Xoom on the post linked to above are a scream
Every Android fan I meet is a hard core PC user and Apple hater ... I am actually beginning to feel pity for these people. They simply wouldn't admit Apple can do anything good if their life depended on it. They simply repeat "Apple's walled garden will ensure its failure" over and over!
Meanwhile, the news today that about half of all iPad 2 purchases were first time buyers gave me a sense of the future.
It cost ~ $2x for Apple to build AND put it into iPad 2.
It cost Nvidia ~$1x for Nvidia to build and ~$2x for Apple's competitors to put it into their tablet.
You see, Nvidia needs to make a Profits as well.
For Motorola , they dont have any pricing advantage compare to Apple on SoC compare to Apple by having more sophisticated hardware at the same price.
Every Android fan I meet is a hard core PC user and Apple hater ... I am actually beginning to feel pity for these people. They simply wouldn't admit Apple can do anything good if their life depended on it. They simply repeat "Apple's walled garden will ensure its failure" over and over!
ah, sad people, can't admit anything without falling apart?
gotta say i use both WINDOWS and OSX (a PC is a freaking PERSONAL COMPUTER) they both have their uses.... now if Apple made a product that was as durable as a thinkpad (also am i the only one who the new touchpads with out buttons hurt fingers with prolonged use? just wondering) however thats not gonna happen... making things thinner is not always better (what happens if someone steps of a macbook air, or it gets run over by a 13 ton truck?? 0.o)
but thats cause Lenovo (only other company ever consider buying a computer from besides Apple) demands a pretty large premium.... so it makes sense.
anyways, iOS is superior to most of what i have seen Android do. unless you are really into programing so they can root it and play around.
I didn?t disregard the larger display rumours. For starters, I didn?t see that mentioned in the article so I didn?t see how it would be relevant.
Secondly, the only rumours I?ve seen on that have been a slightly larger display, but with the casing being the same size. IOW, the display would be closer to the edge of the case design but the footprint would remain the same.
Finally, Apple has been very strict about the displays to make it easier on them, 3rd-party devs, and by extension the customer. Even if they keep the same resolution but enlarge the display?s surface area a little you still end up with a different pixel density and they will have to include that in the SDK. I know many will say that isn?t a big deal but Apple has plenty of precedence showing that to be a big deal. That isn?t to say that it won?t happen, and I?d like that so long as the phone isn?t physically bigger, but that rumour is pretty weak at this point.
Sorry wasn't really clear and missed the graphic which listed the package size and answered my question.
The actual dimension of the POP package is what Apple needs to find room for on the iPhone 5 board. The POP is now rectangular. The old A4 was a 14.1 x 14.1 square the new 14.3 x 16.7 rectangle so they can still fit the 14.3 and clear out for 2.6mm of board space on one side. I agree with changing the display size is unlikely but I think they can fit the new POP by reorienting a few chips on the board and still fit the other traces you showed in the photo of the iPhone 4 PCB.
Googling, I found that the Tegra 2 is only about 49 mm^2, fairly similar in size to the A4. So the semiconductor costs for a Tegra 2 would be less than the 49/120 (=~ 0.41) fraction of an A5. However, the packaging costs are probably pretty similar. I'm wondering if UBM Technologies is comparing the manufacturing cost of an A5 vs. the price of a Tegra 2, I doubt that the manufacturing cost of an A5 is only 67% more than the manufacturing cost of a Tegra 2.
ah, sad people, can't admit anything without falling apart?
gotta say i use both WINDOWS and OSX (a PC is a freaking PERSONAL COMPUTER) they both have their uses.... now if Apple made a product that was as durable as a thinkpad (also am i the only one who the new touchpads with out buttons hurt fingers with prolonged use? just wondering) however thats not gonna happen... making things thinner is not always better (what happens if someone steps of a macbook air, or it gets run over by a 13 ton truck?? 0.o)
but thats cause Lenovo (only other company ever consider buying a computer from besides Apple) demands a pretty large premium.... so it makes sense.
anyways, iOS is superior to most of what i have seen Android do. unless you are really into programing so they can root it and play around.
1) All of Apple?s trackpads have a physical button. If depressing it hurts your fingers then switch to tap setting.
2) Making something so robust that it withstand being run over by a Mac truck or hurled into the center of Sun "is not always better?. You have to make a tradeoff in order to make a product that is durable but still useful. Panasonic Toughbooks are considerably more durable than other notebooks, but they are designed that way. They are not what a typical consumer would want or need, especially at the premium for that ruggedness.
3) Why always this talk about Android can be rooted. When has iOS not been jailbroken allowing access to every part of the OS? You?d think that would be the best of both worlds for someone that says iOS is superior and wants access to the system.
image: http://photos.appleinsidercdn.com/A5.ev...sA5.031211.jpg
Sorry wasn't really clear and missed the graphic which listed the package size and answered my question.
The actual dimension of the POP package is what Apple needs to find room for on the iPhone 5 board. The POP is now rectangular. The old A4 was a 14.1 x 14.1 square the new 14.3 x 16.7 rectangle so they can still fit the 14.3 and clear out for 2.6mm of board space on one side. I agree with changing the display size is unlikely but I think they can fit the new POP by reorienting a few chips on the board and still fit the other traces you showed in the photo of the iPhone 4 PCB.
Thanks. I assumed those dimensions were for the PoP. They surely have the width to do it, assuming they can make room for the chip for that extra 40mm^2, which I think they can.
Now Tod...
Don't you remember one of the radio show hosts referring oi Mavis of Milpitas?
No but I do remember Bob Wilkins of "Creature Feature" fame telling at least one Milpitas joke every week...
FWIW, "milpitas" is Spanish for "little corn fields"
Not quite - it's a corruption of Ohlone and Spanish. Besides, that's a salt marsh and I dare you to grow corn in a salt marsh.
Milpitas, California
... though, some would claim corn tassels resemble [long] blonde pit hair
That's what carpetbaggers and their revisionist history will do for you.
No iPad 2 for you, today!
Nope. The estimated delivery date is April 1. Ha-ha!
Where's my TDM?
Sorry, his story is better...
Thanks Bageljoey, you made my (iPadless) day!
Thanks. I assumed those dimensions were for the PoP. They surely have the width to do it, assuming they can make room for the chip for that extra 40mm^2, which I think they can.
I agree, given that the width difference is just 0.2mm (assuming they orient the chip so the 2.6mm larger side is along the board).
In fact, when you look at the A4 having 3.4mm space between die and edge of package on all sides, and A5 having 2.3mm and 2.1mm, with the smaller gap width-wise to come in just barely wider than A4, I would suspect that fitting on the iPhone 5's circuit board was a key design decision way back when.