yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries. Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers). I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
There's are LOTS of public school teachers that are there to collect their measly paycheck and do nothing all freaking day. They're lazy, don't care about their students, and are protected by their union.
The GOOD teachers are the ones who are promoted to administration. If anything, they're the only ones that you can guarantee are doing something.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
There's are LOTS of public school teachers that are there to collect their measly paycheck and do nothing all freaking day. They're lazy, don't care about their students, and are protected by their union.
The GOOD teachers are the ones who are promoted to administration. If anything, they're the only ones that you can guarantee are doing something.
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," Jobs said. This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."
Hmmm \
That would explain why this was given iTunes Front-Page Status recently;
As an educator in Indiana with a Masters in Education, I probably don't fit your definition of underachiever. Let's face it, teachers don't choose the profession intending to make a pile of money any more than police officers, fireman, or other public workers. But blanket statements about unions being "organized thugs" is just feeding the trolls.
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
Let me just say that Tim's opinion is not groupthink - that's his own POV. Most people realize that admin is cash sink hole whether it's schools or industry - way, way, way too much money is thrown into administration for people that don't actually help either 1) teach the kids or 2) deliver a product.
Personally I'd be all about massively down sizing school administration is there is an opportunity to save the jobs of teachers and, at my school growing up the admins had never been teachers - not the principal, assistant principal, guidance counselor, district superintendent, not a single one of them had ever been a teacher must less "the best teachers." Now I'm sure there are bad teachers and that's really the point - the rest of us that aren't unionized live in a world where if you suck at your job you'll probably get fired and that pushes us to be better. In the union world you strive for tenure and once you get that you can either 1) continue to be a good teacher or 2) become lazy and either way you can't be fired. Ultimately I think what people are asking for is equal treatment - you shouldn't be allowed to keep your job just because you pay someone to CYA and put pressure on your employer - that's a huge waste of the employers money and in the case of teachers it's our tax money.
Union world - get your years, make tenure, relax and milk it (I have personally seen this in action at multiple places)
Right to work - do the best job you can all the time because if any given year your company could have a layoff and it doesn't matter how long you've been there, if they think you aren't pulling your weight you're fired. (i have also seen this in multiple places)
I'm ashamed to be a union member of the AFL-CIO. They are idiots. They would be the first to argue that a sick union member not be fired from his job, but they hypocritically attack a man who is a genius for small flaws. They are carping, small-minded, vinditive, jealous, pathetic. A shame.
Steve
Exactly. Unions make themselves easy targets when they do stupid hypocritical things.
"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," Jobs said. This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."
Hmmm \
That would explain why this was given iTunes Front-Page Status recently;
As an educator in Indiana with a Masters in Education, I probably don't fit your definition of underachiever. Let's face it, teachers don't choose the profession intending to make a pile of money any more than police officers, fireman, or other public workers. But blanket statements about unions being "organized thugs" is just feeding the trolls.
I haven't seen that movie yet, but I've heard that it's pretty damning evidence against the current educational system.
And I don't believe that all teachers are bad. Of course there are some good ones out there. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that public unions in general are bad. I see how they're acting and the kinds of people that are protesting.
I haven't seen that movie yet, but I've heard that it's pretty damning evidence against the current educational system. And I don't believe that all teachers are bad. Of course there are some good ones out there. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that public unions in general are bad. I see how they're acting and the kinds of people that are protesting.
We agree, sort-of.
I've read a lot of your posts and you're smart enough to know that a "Documentary" can be spun into whatever political agenda you care to endorse.
A lot of the "protesters" that were in Madison were shipped in; that didn't help their credibility, in my opinion. What was not widely publicized was the fact that teachers there had already agreed to a pay cut as well as contributing more money to their pensions and medical insurance. The governor didn't feel that was enough and decided to strip the public employees of their collective bargaining rights. The notable exception were the police and fireman who cut a back-door deal.
yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries. Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers). I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
2) It is also abou the teachers unions resisting change in a system that is clearly broken and failing our children and our country.
3) We are upset with ALL public employees who are taking too much in salary and benefits, and yes the obscene salaries superindents are collecting are high on the list. The govenor of NY has proposed capping their 6 figure salies at $150k which is a start, but certainly not enough.
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
I can only speak from my experience, but my retirement pension will be half of what my regular salary is now, (nowhere close to the $50k you mention ) as is the case with most teachers in Illinois and Indiana. You'll find a lot of retired teachers doing substitute work in their districts to make ends meet.
And it's a common misconception that teachers work 9 months out of the year. In our state, we're required to accrue a certain number of CPDU's (Curriculum Professional Development Units) each year. Which means I'm working over the Summer. In fact, there's no other profession that I'm aware of that requires their members to go through so much additional work just to re-certify and get our licenses renewed.
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
And they are promoted instead of being fired because...?
It's business people. Take your emotion out of it. Would you want someone that hasn't been there 3 out of 4 years running your company?
It's nobody's fault. That's just the way it is and Steve's secrecy about everything doesn't help.
You're reading WAY too much into "Jobs? poor attendance in three of the past four years." I believe that just means he missed more than 25% of the meetings for 3 of the past 4 years. Obviously perfect attendence would generally be preferred, but it's not that he's been "out for 3 years."
Would I want the man associated with two of the most successful companies in the world, who has more "CEO of the xxxxx" awards than you can shake a stick at, advising my company? Who wouldn't?
I see the Union's point. Namely, you want Board Members to be active in the Company. However, what they fail to understand is being a Board Member for most companies requires very little actual attendance. Many Boards only meet four times a year. Further, being a Board member isn't a full time job. Many of the Board Members on Apple's Board for example have other gigs.
More importantly, Jobs interests as being Disney's largest shareholder clearly is aligned with the Shareholders. Jobs has also contributed to Disney by spearheading the Disney Store remodeling to make the stores more of destination places like Apple Stores.
I agree the Union's position in this particular matter seems odd. However, as a shareholder, the Union can take whatever position it wants as could you if you buy shares. On its face, the Union's position makes sense: namely you want Board Members to be active in the company. For my reasons listed earlier though, in Jobs case those reasons don't make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montefuego
I'm ashamed to be a union member of the AFL-CIO. They are idiots. They would be the first to argue that a sick union member not be fired from his job, but they hypocritically attack a man who is a genius for small flaws. They are carping, small-minded, vinditive, jealous, pathetic. A shame.
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
2) It is also abou the teachers unions resisting change in a system that is clearly broken and failing our children and our country.
3) We are upset with ALL public employees who are taking too much in salary and benefits, and yes the obscene salaries superindents are collecting are high on the list. The govenor of NY has proposed capping their 6 figure salies at $150k which is a start, but certainly not enough.
Teacher's pension are under funded because state legislatuers fudge the numbers over the years to make the budget looks nicer, not because Teachers take an inordinate amount of money. Plus, teachers require 30 years of service to fully vest in their pensions. So where is the retiring young part coming in? Also, teachers pay the same tax as you and me, so don't go off talking as if they are not tax payers too.
What's clearly failing our children is not the teachers, but the education system set up by legislators, school boards, and generally a host of other parties that have nothing to do with teacher's union. Teacher's union contribute part of the problem, but they are not the whole problem.
If you are upset that ALL public employees are taking too much in salary and benefit, then I can safely say you are probably brainwashed. MOST common public employees takes lower salaries compared to their private sector counter parts. Benefits are better, but it's the tradeoff for taking a lower salary, more restraint in daily work, and putting up with more than their fair share of ignorant people. Those that have high salaries are usually elected officials, appointees, and high level managers who are friends of elected officials and appointees. And all the people spouting FUD that public employee salary and benefits needs to be cut are using these decidedly NOT common employees as example.
If you are really angry about how public money's been wasted, start questioning why it's always people who make middle of road income who needs to feel the pain, while the richest of the rich needs to get tax cuts. yeah, yeah, we all heard the theory that we need to lower tax for those people so they can wisely invest the money. But taking that theory to extrem, why not get rid of their tax all together? If lower their tax by a few percentage help the economy, then completely eliminating it must do wonders to the economy, right? Well, at least that makes filling tax easier for everyone, so at least there's one benefit.
Dumb and short sighted Labor Union running their stupid run-book.
He probably has enough shares to stay in but if they vote him out, he can sell his Disney shares and invest in Apple. Let's see how that Labor Union likes them Apples.
Time will tell.
That is every bit as short sighted as the labor union's vote. They have a right to vote for people who are going to actively participate in the board. Their objection to Jobs (at least publicly) was that he wasn't attending board meetings. That is a legitimate complaint - whether you agree with it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Market_Player
Jobs cannot vote for himself.
Wrong. If that's the extent of your understanding of SEC rules, you shouldn't be a market player.
By that silly logic, a person who owns 90% of the shares in a company shouldn't be on the board - the other shareholders could vote him out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
I see the Union's point. Namely, you want Board Members to be active in the Company. However, what they fail to understand is being a Board Member for most companies requires very little actual attendance. Many Boards only meet four times a year. Further, being a Board member isn't a full time job. Many of the Board Members on Apple's Board for example have other gigs.
I agree. Board members are expected to participate. If someone is unable to regularly attend board meetings, they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. If Jobs is unable to attend board meetings, he should step down. There's nothing stopping him from being an advisor to the board or consultant so that they can still take advantage of his expertise.
Comments
why would anyone kick out the guy behind Pixar?
It's like Apple kicking out the guy behind Lisa and Macintosh....
No it's not like that. Not at all.
He'll still own the shares and it's not like he can't have coffee over there anymore.
You want a healthy board member.
yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries. Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers). I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
There's are LOTS of public school teachers that are there to collect their measly paycheck and do nothing all freaking day. They're lazy, don't care about their students, and are protected by their union.
The GOOD teachers are the ones who are promoted to administration. If anything, they're the only ones that you can guarantee are doing something.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
There's are LOTS of public school teachers that are there to collect their measly paycheck and do nothing all freaking day. They're lazy, don't care about their students, and are protected by their union.
The GOOD teachers are the ones who are promoted to administration. If anything, they're the only ones that you can guarantee are doing something.
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
Hmmm
That would explain why this was given iTunes Front-Page Status recently;
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...82642&s=143441
"organized thugs and underachievers"
As an educator in Indiana with a Masters in Education, I probably don't fit your definition of underachiever. Let's face it, teachers don't choose the profession intending to make a pile of money any more than police officers, fireman, or other public workers. But blanket statements about unions being "organized thugs" is just feeding the trolls.
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
Let me just say that Tim's opinion is not groupthink - that's his own POV. Most people realize that admin is cash sink hole whether it's schools or industry - way, way, way too much money is thrown into administration for people that don't actually help either 1) teach the kids or 2) deliver a product.
Personally I'd be all about massively down sizing school administration is there is an opportunity to save the jobs of teachers and, at my school growing up the admins had never been teachers - not the principal, assistant principal, guidance counselor, district superintendent, not a single one of them had ever been a teacher must less "the best teachers." Now I'm sure there are bad teachers and that's really the point - the rest of us that aren't unionized live in a world where if you suck at your job you'll probably get fired and that pushes us to be better. In the union world you strive for tenure and once you get that you can either 1) continue to be a good teacher or 2) become lazy and either way you can't be fired. Ultimately I think what people are asking for is equal treatment - you shouldn't be allowed to keep your job just because you pay someone to CYA and put pressure on your employer - that's a huge waste of the employers money and in the case of teachers it's our tax money.
Union world - get your years, make tenure, relax and milk it (I have personally seen this in action at multiple places)
Right to work - do the best job you can all the time because if any given year your company could have a layoff and it doesn't matter how long you've been there, if they think you aren't pulling your weight you're fired. (i have also seen this in multiple places)
I'm ashamed to be a union member of the AFL-CIO. They are idiots. They would be the first to argue that a sick union member not be fired from his job, but they hypocritically attack a man who is a genius for small flaws. They are carping, small-minded, vinditive, jealous, pathetic. A shame.
Steve
Exactly. Unions make themselves easy targets when they do stupid hypocritical things.
Personally I'd be all about massively down sizing school administration is there is an opportunity to save the jobs of teachers
Exactly.
Why does a school need two or more Asst. Principals?
"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," Jobs said. This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."
Hmmm
That would explain why this was given iTunes Front-Page Status recently;
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...82642&s=143441
"organized thugs and underachievers"
As an educator in Indiana with a Masters in Education, I probably don't fit your definition of underachiever. Let's face it, teachers don't choose the profession intending to make a pile of money any more than police officers, fireman, or other public workers. But blanket statements about unions being "organized thugs" is just feeding the trolls.
I haven't seen that movie yet, but I've heard that it's pretty damning evidence against the current educational system.
And I don't believe that all teachers are bad. Of course there are some good ones out there. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that public unions in general are bad. I see how they're acting and the kinds of people that are protesting.
It's nobody's fault. That's just the way it is and Steve's secrecy about everything doesn't help.
I haven't seen that movie yet, but I've heard that it's pretty damning evidence against the current educational system. And I don't believe that all teachers are bad. Of course there are some good ones out there. That doesn't change the fact that I believe that public unions in general are bad. I see how they're acting and the kinds of people that are protesting.
We agree, sort-of.
I've read a lot of your posts and you're smart enough to know that a "Documentary" can be spun into whatever political agenda you care to endorse.
A lot of the "protesters" that were in Madison were shipped in; that didn't help their credibility, in my opinion. What was not widely publicized was the fact that teachers there had already agreed to a pay cut as well as contributing more money to their pensions and medical insurance. The governor didn't feel that was enough and decided to strip the public employees of their collective bargaining rights. The notable exception were the police and fireman who cut a back-door deal.
yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries. Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers). I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
2) It is also abou the teachers unions resisting change in a system that is clearly broken and failing our children and our country.
3) We are upset with ALL public employees who are taking too much in salary and benefits, and yes the obscene salaries superindents are collecting are high on the list. The govenor of NY has proposed capping their 6 figure salies at $150k which is a start, but certainly not enough.
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
I can only speak from my experience, but my retirement pension will be half of what my regular salary is now, (nowhere close to the $50k you mention
And it's a common misconception that teachers work 9 months out of the year. In our state, we're required to accrue a certain number of CPDU's (Curriculum Professional Development Units) each year. Which means I'm working over the Summer. In fact, there's no other profession that I'm aware of that requires their members to go through so much additional work just to re-certify and get our licenses renewed.
Jobs cannot vote for himself.
Uh... of course he can. Perhaps you are confusing corporate governance with the rules for 4th grade class elections or the Top Shot elimination round?
Not really. Many times, BAD teachers are removed from the classroom and put into administrator positions. This keeps them AWAY from the students in a classroom setting. Districts want to KEEP the GOOD teachers in the classroom. So, clearly you have little idea what you're talking about.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
And they are promoted instead of being fired because...?
Take your rhetoric to the political forum.
It's business people. Take your emotion out of it. Would you want someone that hasn't been there 3 out of 4 years running your company?
It's nobody's fault. That's just the way it is and Steve's secrecy about everything doesn't help.
You're reading WAY too much into "Jobs? poor attendance in three of the past four years." I believe that just means he missed more than 25% of the meetings for 3 of the past 4 years. Obviously perfect attendence would generally be preferred, but it's not that he's been "out for 3 years."
Would I want the man associated with two of the most successful companies in the world, who has more "CEO of the xxxxx" awards than you can shake a stick at, advising my company? Who wouldn't?
With 'friends' like ISS and the unions presuming to speak for shareholders, who needs enemies!
More importantly, Jobs interests as being Disney's largest shareholder clearly is aligned with the Shareholders. Jobs has also contributed to Disney by spearheading the Disney Store remodeling to make the stores more of destination places like Apple Stores.
I'm ashamed to be a union member of the AFL-CIO. They are idiots. They would be the first to argue that a sick union member not be fired from his job, but they hypocritically attack a man who is a genius for small flaws. They are carping, small-minded, vinditive, jealous, pathetic. A shame.
Steve
1) it is not the just $50,000 salary for 9 months of work, it is the seven figure unfunfunded pension that allows teachers to retire younger and with a significantly larger safety net than the private workers footing the bill.
2) It is also abou the teachers unions resisting change in a system that is clearly broken and failing our children and our country.
3) We are upset with ALL public employees who are taking too much in salary and benefits, and yes the obscene salaries superindents are collecting are high on the list. The govenor of NY has proposed capping their 6 figure salies at $150k which is a start, but certainly not enough.
Teacher's pension are under funded because state legislatuers fudge the numbers over the years to make the budget looks nicer, not because Teachers take an inordinate amount of money. Plus, teachers require 30 years of service to fully vest in their pensions. So where is the retiring young part coming in? Also, teachers pay the same tax as you and me, so don't go off talking as if they are not tax payers too.
What's clearly failing our children is not the teachers, but the education system set up by legislators, school boards, and generally a host of other parties that have nothing to do with teacher's union. Teacher's union contribute part of the problem, but they are not the whole problem.
If you are upset that ALL public employees are taking too much in salary and benefit, then I can safely say you are probably brainwashed. MOST common public employees takes lower salaries compared to their private sector counter parts. Benefits are better, but it's the tradeoff for taking a lower salary, more restraint in daily work, and putting up with more than their fair share of ignorant people. Those that have high salaries are usually elected officials, appointees, and high level managers who are friends of elected officials and appointees. And all the people spouting FUD that public employee salary and benefits needs to be cut are using these decidedly NOT common employees as example.
If you are really angry about how public money's been wasted, start questioning why it's always people who make middle of road income who needs to feel the pain, while the richest of the rich needs to get tax cuts. yeah, yeah, we all heard the theory that we need to lower tax for those people so they can wisely invest the money. But taking that theory to extrem, why not get rid of their tax all together? If lower their tax by a few percentage help the economy, then completely eliminating it must do wonders to the economy, right?
Dumb and short sighted Labor Union running their stupid run-book.
He probably has enough shares to stay in but if they vote him out, he can sell his Disney shares and invest in Apple. Let's see how that Labor Union likes them Apples.
Time will tell.
That is every bit as short sighted as the labor union's vote. They have a right to vote for people who are going to actively participate in the board. Their objection to Jobs (at least publicly) was that he wasn't attending board meetings. That is a legitimate complaint - whether you agree with it or not.
Jobs cannot vote for himself.
Wrong. If that's the extent of your understanding of SEC rules, you shouldn't be a market player.
By that silly logic, a person who owns 90% of the shares in a company shouldn't be on the board - the other shareholders could vote him out.
I see the Union's point. Namely, you want Board Members to be active in the Company. However, what they fail to understand is being a Board Member for most companies requires very little actual attendance. Many Boards only meet four times a year. Further, being a Board member isn't a full time job. Many of the Board Members on Apple's Board for example have other gigs.
I agree. Board members are expected to participate. If someone is unable to regularly attend board meetings, they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. If Jobs is unable to attend board meetings, he should step down. There's nothing stopping him from being an advisor to the board or consultant so that they can still take advantage of his expertise.