New MBA

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
Hello,



I apologize for the repeat topic of what/when and why new apple stuff will be updated. I have read previous threads but can't gain a clear enough idea of what's to come.



Anyways I would like to know peoples views on the next MBA refresh; will it jump to Sandy Bridge (again I don't know if intel may a low power processor low enough for the MBA in sandy bridge), and the other one is thunderbolt port(is the chipset small enough to get integrated into a MBA yet).



I am looking to replace my current set up of a MBP acting like my desktop and my iPad(and keyboard) for my mobile work and travels. This setup has worked great for me last year while I was at university, but now I really need a full OS with me at work. So my thinking was if the MBA doesn't look like it will get one of the two main things I said above in the next revision, then I will go ahead and buy one now to replace my iPad with.



Thank you in advance for any pointers or insight you can give me.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 42
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,223moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    Anyways I would like to know peoples views on the next MBA refresh; will it jump to Sandy Bridge (again I don't know if intel may a low power processor low enough for the MBA in sandy bridge), and the other one is thunderbolt port(is the chipset small enough to get integrated into a MBA yet).



    Intel does have a lower power processor to use - you have to remember that their TDP is the CPU + GPU. There are some ULV chips that can go in that are out already.



    I suspect that to get Thunderbolt support, they will have to go with Intel's chipset. Maybe not but I think it's likely.



    Right now, the white Macbook has not been updated to match the 13" MBP and it normally is. It would be a good move for Apple to drop the white model at the back to school season, switch the Air to an i5/i7 ULV.



    What's interesting is that Intel have said Ivy Bridge will go quad-core and could be introduced in the second half of 2011 so that may be a possibility and they will most likely bump up the Flash sizes to have 128GB entry because Toshiba are jumping to 25nm.



    From this point, the updates will probably go:



    April - iMac/Mini, all Thunderbolt, Sandy Bridge and a Mac Pro minor refresh with TB

    June - iPhone 5

    August/September - Macbook Air update to either 2-core Sandy Bridge or 4-core Ivy Bridge with 128GB SSD entry and white Macbook dropped

    November - Mac Pro updated to have 8-core chips so up to 16-cores

    January 2012 - more Ivy Bridge chips. It may launch here which means MBA will get SB
  • Reply 2 of 42
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It would be a good move for Apple to drop the white model at the back to school season, switch the Air to an i5/i7 ULV.



    You mean after, right? Probably the easiest way to clear out old stock of iPods and white MacBooks.



    Quote:

    April - iMac/Mini, all Thunderbolt, Sandy Bridge and a Mac Pro minor refresh with TB



    Apple has never updated their professional desktops without a CPU change, so I'd say no update until Q4 2011 when the chips exist.
  • Reply 3 of 42
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,223moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    You mean after, right? Probably the easiest way to clear out old stock of iPods and white MacBooks.



    Yeah they might do that instead.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Apple has never updated their professional desktops without a CPU change, so I'd say no update until Q4 2011 when the chips exist.



    It won't really be an upgrade though - they just switch the GPU bundled with it and offer the GPU as upgrades for existing owners.
  • Reply 4 of 42
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It won't really be an upgrade though - they just switch the GPU bundled with it and offer the GPU as upgrades for existing owners.



    Oh! You mean put the Thunderbolt chip on the graphics card itself and call the Mini DisplayPort port on the card Thunderbolt? Great for users of older models (me), terrible for all models (me, too) for the rest of the lifespan of the Mac Pro.



    Thunderbolt-chipped graphics cards would mean custom cards exclusive to Apple... not the road we want to go down again.
  • Reply 5 of 42
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,223moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Thunderbolt-chipped graphics cards would mean custom cards exclusive to Apple... not the road we want to go down again.



    It wouldn't have any implications for custom cards, Thunderbolt is hardware independent so PC manufacturers can do the same thing. But Apple still use Mac-specific cards anyway.



    It doesn't have to be a GPU though, they can make a TB PCI card. They have to update the Mac Pro line to ship with Thunderbolt support soon. There's no point in shipping Macbook Pros with 12x faster ports than your highest end machine.



    Once people see the Thunderbolt stuff at NAB, there will be a lot of interest.
  • Reply 6 of 42
    mjteixmjteix Posts: 563member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It wouldn't have any implications for custom cards, Thunderbolt is hardware independent so PC manufacturers can do the same thing. But Apple still use Mac-specific cards anyway.



    It doesn't have to be a GPU though, they can make a TB PCI card. They have to update the Mac Pro line to ship with Thunderbolt support soon. There's no point in shipping Macbook Pros with 12x faster ports than your highest end machine.



    Once people see the Thunderbolt stuff at NAB, there will be a lot of interest.



    I agree with Apple using Mac-specific cards anyway.



    2 problems however.

    - Intel said that there would be no TB (data-only) PCIe cards. Which is understandable since TB specs include 1 or 2 channels of video.

    - Most of what TB offers externally, a MP (or other high-end computer) can offer internally: either fast storage with RAID cards, or most of the audio/video TB devices that will be offered "soon" as those are based on PCIe connected devices anyway.



    Sure, in the future, we may see TB devices that are very different from what is offered in PCIe format. But that's another story.



    In any case, for the current MPs, Apple could offer a GPU/TB combo card, it doesn't have to be a very fast gpu, since it will probably connect thru 8x lanes (as with the MBPs dedicated gpus), while up to 8x lanes could be used for a couple of independant TB controllers/ports, everything on a 16x card. With up to 12 TB devices and 2 displays, that should be enough for all TB needs.



    For the future MP models, Apple could offer on-board, but dedicated graphics, standard, with a couple of independant TB controllers/ports, that would be enough for applications like server and plenty more, without taking a physical PCIe slot (the MP only has 4 of them). If the user wants/needs a better gpu or a CUDA-capable gpu, they add one in the double-wide slot.



    ----



    As far as the MBA is concerned, a TB port would be a nice addition, at least for the 13" model if space is an issue, but the TB chip is small (15x15mm) and should be inexpensive. Docking solutions (SATA, USB, FW, Enet, audio i/o, display) would probably be very popular. Core i5/i7 ULV/LV cpus are a given.
  • Reply 7 of 42
    mr.gmr.g Posts: 12member
    Wow thank you Marvin and tallest skill and also the last post forgot your name. Great posts and really helpful. I was doing my owning research on thunderbolt and I came to a realization that I would like you guys to confirm. Unlike FireWire I won't be able to create a network with TB will I?



    The idea I had in my head was I would eventually get around to replacing my preunibody MBP with a new TB one. And then upgrade my other things like external hard drives with time. So the final set up would be a MBP linked to a external hard drive acting as a desktop. And then when I needed to sync up the MBA I could simply plug up into my thunderbolt setup and then view files on my external hard drive and MBP just like I was plugged into a network.



    However after reading some articles I got the impression that multiply computers couldn't connect up like that. Which would mean I would just go for the MBA now as the file sizes I work with are easily transferable over wifi.



    Last question I have is, when the MBA is updated to a ulv/lv core i5 or similar processor, as someone pointed out apple would probably have to ditch the nvidia graphics set. Does intel make a graphics chipset that is comparable to the nvidia one now? The real use the MBA will be getting is emails, letters, slideshows for work and maybe aperture for when I travel I have a place to back up my photos. Or I may just stick with iPhoto and then transfer them to my MBP. But I would be interested to know peoples views on if the current generation of MBA is a good set up for that kind of work requirement. (I was thinking 11 inch with 4th ram and 1.6 ghz rather than 13 inch)
  • Reply 8 of 42
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    Last question I have is, when the MBA is updated to a ulv/lv core i5 or similar processor, as someone pointed out apple would probably have to ditch the nvidia graphics set. Does intel make a graphics chipset that is comparable to the nvidia one now?



    They are roughly comparable. The NVIDIA 320m is probably a little better especially if you intend to do a little light gaming on your machine.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    The real use the MBA will be getting is emails, letters, slideshows for work



    This is the perfect use case for the MBA. It is designed to excel at this type of work.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    and maybe aperture for when I travel I have a place to back up my photos. Or I may just stick with iPhoto and then transfer them to my MBP.



    I don't own a current MBA but I think you're pushing its limits with Aperture. iPhoto probably will be no problem.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    But I would be interested to know peoples views on if the current generation of MBA is a good set up for that kind of work requirement. (I was thinking 11 inch with 4th ram and 1.6 ghz rather than 13 inch)



    I like the current MBAs a lot and have seriously considered getting one to replace my aging MBP. I decided to wait for the SB MBAs, which I hope will arrive sooner than Marvin is predicting. I suspect that the SB MBAs will perform as well if not slightly better but will have improved battery life. That's my only gripe. The current MBAs don't have as much battery life as I would like. That's not to say that the current MBAs are poor, far from it IMO. But I would like a little longer battery life. With it being this close to new MBAs, I'm going to wait it out and see what the SB MBAs can offer from a battery life standpoint. If it is not an improvement over the current models, or not substantially better, I'll pick up one of the current models at the refurb store at a discount.



    That's my take on the matter FWIW.
  • Reply 9 of 42
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    Seriously, no facts can be presented to deal with questions like these. So everything in this thread is pure speculation.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    Hello,



    I apologize for the repeat topic of what/when and why new apple stuff will be updated. I have read previous threads but can't gain a clear enough idea of what's to come.



    You never will get a clear picture because there are no facts to be had. Zero zip nada! Even if a big rumor gets released you won't know until release time if any of the rumored info is indeed fact. It just boggles the mind that you would post questions like this and then act on any responses as fact.

    Quote:

    Anyways I would like to know peoples views on the next MBA refresh; will it jump to Sandy Bridge (again I don't know if intel may a low power processor low enough for the MBA in sandy bridge), and the other one is thunderbolt port(is the chipset small enough to get integrated into a MBA yet).



    Again this is speculation. The AIR could jump to Sandy Bridge, AMDs Fusion Zacatecas platform or AMDs Fusion Llano. It would be most interesting if AMD could bump the cloak rate of Zacate up to around 2.4 to 2.6 GHz as that would likely increase performance while lowering power usage.



    The big problem with Sandy Bridge is that such a machine would have to rely on the built in GPU unless Intel has a viable low power GPU less model coming. The problem is the integrated GPU is another Intel dog. I do believe the lack of OpenCL support would kill it in most Apple products.

    Quote:



    I am looking to replace my current set up of a MBP acting like my desktop and my iPad(and keyboard) for my mobile work and travels. This setup has worked great for me last year while I was at university, but now I really need a full OS with me at work. So my thinking was if the MBA doesn't look like it will get one of the two main things I said above in the next revision, then I will go ahead and buy one now to replace my iPad with.



    Are you serious about using an AIR as your main computer in an office environment. I'd think long and hard about that. It certainly can work for some but if you use it constantly all day long it will be too small. Only you know your use cases here but I'd think long and hard about AIR as a primary office machine.

    Quote:



    Thank you in advance for any pointers or insight you can give me.



    No problem I just don't think most of your questions are something that can be addressed in a reasonable manner. Mostly because of the limited ability to see into the future.
  • Reply 10 of 42
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    Wow thank you Marvin and tallest skill and also the last post forgot your name. Great posts and really helpful. I was doing my owning research on thunderbolt and I came to a realization that I would like you guys to confirm. Unlike FireWire I won't be able to create a network with TB will I?



    That is a good question but I will leave you with this thought, I don't think the entire TB strategy has been played out yet. For one I'm expecting either a docking hub or monitor for the laptops. These would likely support Ethernet.

    Quote:

    The idea I had in my head was I would eventually get around to replacing my preunibody MBP with a new TB one. And then upgrade my other things like external hard drives with time. So the final set up would be a MBP linked to a external hard drive acting as a desktop.



    Speaking as somebody with a early 2008 MBP this is really stupid. Using a laptop as a desktop machine is foolish. You may not like to gear that but think about this, if you buy a desktop iMac right now you have your portable needs covered!!! You already have an iPad and a MBP to hold you over until a more suitable portable arrives.



    This should be pretty obvious, fill out your desktop now and get by with your current portable for awhile.

    Quote:

    And then when I needed to sync up the MBA I could simply plug up into my thunderbolt setup and then view files on my external hard drive and MBP just like I was plugged into a network.



    Or you could simply buy a hub.

    Quote:



    However after reading some articles I got the impression that multiply computers couldn't connect up like that. Which would mean I would just go for the MBA now as the file sizes I work with are easily transferable over wifi.



    So why ask the question? In any event I think it will be awhile before we have a sound idea as to what Thunderbolt is capable of. I doubt that we will see the ability to connect straight from one machine to another but a hub emulating Ethernet or some other protocol might be possible.

    Quote:

    Last question I have is, when the MBA is updated to a ulv/lv core i5 or similar processor, as someone pointed out apple would probably have to ditch the nvidia graphics set. Does intel make a graphics chipset that is comparable to the nvidia one now?



    No it doesn't, not even close. The hardware doesn't even support OpenCL.

    Quote:

    The real use the MBA will be getting is emails, letters, slideshows for work and maybe aperture for when I travel I have a place to back up my photos. Or I may just stick with iPhoto and then transfer them to my MBP.



    You do realize your current MBP can do this now?



    Beyond that you have to be very careful about performance of the new AIRs. Any app that is CPU bound will absolutely suck on the current AIRs. With future AIRs you need to be worried about a Sandy Bridge only solution due to the lackluster GPU.



    Also realize that future software will likely be GPU accelerated. Webkit nightlies are and sooner or later the advance features of web kit will make it into Safari. The point here is that it is easy to buy to little GPU these days. The current AIR GPU isn't that bad but the one in Sandy Bridge would be a step in reverse.



    In other words the next gen AIR might be a big step forward for the CPU and a step backward for the GPU. No one really knows until the new AIRs debut.

    Quote:

    But I would be interested to know peoples views on if the current generation of MBA is a good set up for that kind of work requirement. (I was thinking 11 inch with 4th ram and 1.6 ghz rather than 13 inch)



    Well I can't say about Aperture but it is pretty obvious they handle E-Mail well. I would have a big concern about on board storage though, one photo shoot could plug the drive easy.



    In any event there is to much missing in this conversation for any reasonable recommendation to be made.
  • Reply 11 of 42
    mr.gmr.g Posts: 12member
    Thank you wizard_69 and backtomac. Again great posts thank you.*



    But wizard_69 I know that I might as well gaze into a smokey crystal ball and guess what might happen for all I know Steve jobs has made the next iPhone in all the colours of the rainbow, but I find some reassurance in asking other people who maybe just as lost as I am about what they think, it is the sheep herd mentality of mine I guess. Whereas you seem to be more of a wolf who takes things for what they are, and in this cause pure guess work.*



    But you are right as you didn't have enough info from me, so you couldn't make a clear recommendation. I have a couple of hours to kill so I will give a quick run down, I have just finished university and now work with a property firm in London. I have an old MBP 17" and an iPad both of which are great. But with my new job I am traveling a lot, like right now I am in Laos and soon to be going to Thailand and then china. And my iPad works great doing emails and small presentations and keeping my notes together, HOWEVER when I meet people and they say the plans are on my USB I go o can you email them to me, which then involves tracking down an Internet cafe to email maybe two documents to myself. So I thought I would use a MBA as this would replace my iPad and solve the USB/zipped files issues. Also the reason I would stay with a MBP instead of a iMac is simply because I sometimes do take my laptop to work if I need to work on cad drawings or use the wacom tablet in the office so an iMac isn't practical for me.*



    But thank you for all the help and information. I don't want to be a bore or burden, as I said I get a sense of comfort from hearing from other people even if they are just guessing, stupid I know. But I think today and these posts have settled it for me, I think I will get a MBA now as I just spent over two hours trying to find a Internet store so I could downsize a PDF so I could eventually upload it onto my server without it taking several decades from Laos.*



    Once again thank you everyone that posted and if you have more views or guessed I would still love to hear them as I dont think I will be buying a MBA in Laos any time soon.*
  • Reply 12 of 42
    mjteixmjteix Posts: 563member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Beyond that you have to be very careful about performance of the new AIRs. Any app that is CPU bound will absolutely suck on the current AIRs. With future AIRs you need to be worried about a Sandy Bridge only solution due to the lackluster GPU.



    Still, that's what Apple offers in the brand new 13" MBPs (Sandy Bridge no dedicated graphics). If Apple thinks that's an upgrade over 2.40/2.66 C2D + 320M, the same will probably be true for the MBA.



    With ULV versions at 1.40-1.60Ghz, LV versions at 2.10-2.30GHz, and integrated graphics of the same series (HD3000, at a lower clock of course, but that's probably also the case with the current 320M in the MBAs), the 11.6" model may not get a huge boost (still with hyperthreading and turbo-boost, you should be able to tell the difference), but the 13" (up to 2.30GHz + SSD) could be a real threat to the 13" MBP with HDD, in terms of "pure" snappiness!



    FWIW, I think that the MBA is the perfect design for Thunderbolt provided appropriate "docking" devices are available. A TB display that could be an iMac without cpu/gpu/ram, would be perfect to compensate for the MBA "shortcomings": more USB ports, FW, Enet, additional storage?, and display/charging from a couple of wires...
  • Reply 13 of 42
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,223moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post


    So I thought I would use a MBA as this would replace my iPad and solve the USB/zipped files issues. Also the reason I would stay with a MBP instead of a iMac is simply because I sometimes do take my laptop to work if I need to work on cad drawings or use the wacom tablet in the office so an iMac isn't practical for me.



    The MBA 1.6GHz, 320M, 4GB RAM seems like it would be fine for what you want. The CPUs are a bit sluggish but the SSD will help loading files in.



    It's actually quite interesting to see such a painful workflow just because Apple didn't put USB storage support on the iPad. All they need to do is make it work as a master device and have a filesystem. I'm sure it will come eventually after it's tested enough but it kinda seems like they don't want to do it.



    The question would be whether to get the C2D with the better GPU or an i-series with Intel's IGP. If you do renders, the i-series chips will be significantly faster (at this stage usually i-series = 2x Core 2 Duo) but the NVidia card will have much better compatibility. Intel's chips are well-known for graphics glitches in software that uses the GPU and have been noted with the latest chips.



    In your situation, I'd do exactly what you intended and get the 11", 1.6GHz MBA.
  • Reply 14 of 42
    mr.gmr.g Posts: 12member
    Ok, final thank you as I am leaving this city and who knows when internet will be available next. Thanks everyone for the info and guidance it has been really helpful
  • Reply 15 of 42
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    The MBA 1.6GHz, 320M, 4GB RAM seems like it would be fine for what you want. The CPUs are a bit sluggish but the SSD will help loading files in.



    It's actually quite interesting to see such a painful workflow just because Apple didn't put USB storage support on the iPad. All they need to do is make it work as a master device and have a filesystem. I'm sure it will come eventually after it's tested enough but it kinda seems like they don't want to do it.



    The question would be whether to get the C2D with the better GPU or an i-series with Intel's IGP. If you do renders, the i-series chips will be significantly faster (at this stage usually i-series = 2x Core 2 Duo) but the NVidia card will have much better compatibility. Intel's chips are well-known for graphics glitches in software that uses the GPU and have been noted with the latest chips.



    In your situation, I'd do exactly what you intended and get the 11", 1.6GHz MBA.



    Mr. G take a look at the Motorola XOOM. It is an Android tablet that can store files. It does a lot of "computer things" iOS on iPad does not. QuickOffice edits MS Office files. I'm loving Android as a Mac user so far. And Android will get tons of updating this summer. If you play with a XOOM let us know what you think. I haven't gotten to play with one yet.
  • Reply 16 of 42
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    Mr. G take a look at the Motorola XOOM. It is an Android tablet that can store files. It does a lot of "computer things" iOS on iPad does not. QuickOffice edits MS Office files. I'm loving Android as a Mac user so far. And Android will get tons of updating this summer. If you play with a XOOM let us know what you think. I haven't gotten to play with one yet.



    That may be, but he wasn't talking about getting an iPad.
  • Reply 17 of 42
    akhosrofakhosrof Posts: 11member
    Any chance we see the new MBAs with an AMD Fusion? Or is that rumor pretty much out the door after Apple decided to use Intel's Thunderbolt ports?
  • Reply 18 of 42
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhosrof View Post


    Any chance we see the new MBAs with an AMD Fusion?



    Zero. There was never any chance of this ever. It was people manipulating stock.



    Quote:

    Or is that rumor pretty much out the door after Apple decided to use Intel's Thunderbolt ports?



    It's not "Intel's", and there's nothing stopping it from being on AMD boards. Thunderbolt is the new USB. USB is dead.
  • Reply 19 of 42
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mjteix View Post


    Still, that's what Apple offers in the brand new 13" MBPs (Sandy Bridge no dedicated graphics). If Apple thinks that's an upgrade over 2.40/2.66 C2D + 320M, the same will probably be true for the MBA.



    Which is the whole point of my statement!! If Apple goes with a Sandy Bridge only implementation you have to consider carefully the performance considerations. Obviously for some no big deal as the better CPU performance would be a blessing. However if you need ompf of a good GPU or OpenCL support the move to SB only would be a step backwards.

    Quote:

    With ULV versions at 1.40-1.60Ghz, LV versions at 2.10-2.30GHz, and integrated graphics of the same series (HD3000, at a lower clock of course, but that's probably also the case with the current 320M in the MBAs), the 11.6" model may not get a huge boost (still with hyperthreading and turbo-boost, you should be able to tell the difference), but the 13" (up to 2.30GHz + SSD) could be a real threat to the 13" MBP with HDD, in terms of "pure" snappiness!



    There is a lot more to usability than snappiness. I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of a responsive machine just that the GPU isn't all it is cracked up to be on Sandy Bridge. In some cases it would be a significant step backwards. People need to shop with intelligence and make sure the machine fits their needs.

    Quote:

    FWIW, I think that the MBA is the perfect design for Thunderbolt provided appropriate "docking" devices are available.



    Oh yes I agree 100% here. I have to believe that smart docking was one of Apples goals when they came up with TB.

    Quote:

    A TB display that could be an iMac without cpu/gpu/ram, would be perfect to compensate for the MBA "shortcomings": more USB ports, FW, Enet, additional storage?, and display/charging from a couple of wires...



    Well I'm not too sure how much of that will get wrapped into a display but you have the right idea! However this is not just a Mac Book AIR feature, all Apple laptops could benefit from such a dock. It would be great for Laptop users of all interests.



    The only problem I see is that the laptop market could dry up as more and more people become adept at replacing their Laptop needs with iPads. I still see a resurgence in true desktop machines. This leads me to the conclusion that iPad and similar devices need the Thunderbolt ports as much as they need other features.
  • Reply 20 of 42
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,826member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Zero. There was never any chance of this ever. It was people manipulating stock.



    Never is a very long time! The biggest problem with Zacate Fusion is the slightly lower core performance and low clock rate. AMD could easily boost the clock rate with a process shrink and have a processor that is an interesting solution for the AIR.





    Quote:

    It's not "Intel's", and there's nothing stopping it from being on AMD boards. Thunderbolt is the new USB. USB is dead.



    This USB is dead matra is non-sense. The two interfaces are so different that you will likely never see USB replaced by Thunderbolt. The two interfaces don't even play on the same field.
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