Epic game developer calls iPad 2 graphics leap "astonishing," doubts Android can compete

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  • Reply 21 of 68
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,142member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Archos View Post


    Well, given that this is the author of the Unreal Engine, I'd defer to the expert opinion over some anonymous commenter citing wikipedia stats



    *Shrugs*

    Fair enough, but like I said its not like developers have never overhyped a new platform they are developing for before.
  • Reply 22 of 68
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I think Epic has benefitted pretty handsomely from Apple featuring their games, so they're probably not really unbiased. I'm not saying there's any kind of quid pro quo going on - the Epic games are clearly head and shoulders above the mass of games out there, so of course Apple featured them - but just that it would be great for them if iOS devices really did beat out Android across the board. I for one don't think people are really going to see a 9x speed boost (5-7x? Yes. 9x? No.), and I doubt the Epic folks really believe that either.



    Also, I see the Tegras and the Adrenos coming down the line being quite competitive. By the 2011 holidays competing products will be as fast or even faster than the iPad 2, and probably have other buzzwords as well. Sure, it's 9 months after the iPad 2 we're talking about, and the iPad 3 will be around the corner, but I'm just saying that the hardware gulf is unlikely to persist through all release cycles.



    The more important that the details of what the developer is claiming, however, is *that* the developer is claiming it. That iOS is sticky for customers is well-established - see the AI article on "very satisfied" customers in the user polls today - but this shows the tendency for iOS to be sticky for developers as well. Lots of developers have at least dabbled in Android under the idea that someday it'll get better and/or become dominant, but if iOS continues to deliver the goods for developers while Android doesn't, developer experiments with Android may start to wane.



    You also have to consider that the iPad2 was thought unlikely to be able to compete with the fabulous Tegra 2 right before the iPad2 came out. Surprise!



    Most likely any new chips from others will either need the iPad's performance, or at best, slide slightly ahead. But then, shortly afterwards the iPad3 will move comfortably ahead again. I'm not too worried. Apple has a big advantage in being able to customize their chips for their own hardware and OS. No one else can do that. This is a big deal, and we saw a good result for the first generation. We see an even better result with the second. Apple also has an investment in Imagination, and who knows what advantage that may bring.



    In addition, with the problems of Android, it's not likely that developers will flock to it for complex games in the last three months of the iPad2 knowing the new one will be out with better performance shortly.
  • Reply 23 of 68
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipoo View Post


    Its hard to isolate the processor because of the software that runs on top of it, but the A8 in the iPad 1 isn't hugely more powerful than any other A8 at the same speed (snapdragon for instance), looking at the early benchmarks of it. Even if Apple did manage to substantially improve the performance over a stock A8, it would not be close to the 360 core in MIPS and again the instructions per second.



    And then there's memory bandwidth and latency, channel bandwidth between graphics and processor components, the storage limitations of apps, etc, all to factor in.



    These developers are much more sophisticated about this than any if us here are. No offense intended towards anyone, but still, their jobs involve getting every processor cycle to function usefully. The 360 is considered to be difficult to program for, and the PS3 even more so.



    Therefor, we have the matter of usable processor power. If a number of developers have been saying this for months, and they have, I would think that as a group, they know what they're talking about. These are not unknown code monkeys whose statements we can take with some question. These are the top people in their field.
  • Reply 24 of 68
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipoo View Post


    An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second



    The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.



    And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.



    Your numbers are probably right, and still can be foolish to compare last generation of mobile cpu with one of the most powerful current gaming console, but has the article point out, the gap is nearing very fast.



    The SoC way of combining all motherboard mains component inside a single chip enable tremendous power if carefully design. We don't know much on the actual design of the A4 and A5, we don't know how little latency the ram is while siting right on top of the CPU, same thing for the bandwidth between CPU-RAM-GPU. All of this while draining 1 watt at max power



    Power for watts, the A5 is the king of the hill right now.
  • Reply 25 of 68
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    I think Epic has benefitted pretty handsomely from Apple featuring their games, so they're probably not really unbiased. I'm not saying there's any kind of quid pro quo going on - the Epic games are clearly head and shoulders above the mass of games out there, so of course Apple featured them - but just that it would be great for them if iOS devices really did beat out Android across the board. I for one don't think people are really going to see a 9x speed boost (5-7x? Yes. 9x? No.), and I doubt the Epic folks really believe that either.



    Also, I see the Tegras and the Adrenos coming down the line being quite competitive. By the 2011 holidays competing products will be as fast or even faster than the iPad 2, and probably have other buzzwords as well. Sure, it's 9 months after the iPad 2 we're talking about, and the iPad 3 will be around the corner, but I'm just saying that the hardware gulf is unlikely to persist through all release cycles.



    The more important that the details of what the developer is claiming, however, is *that* the developer is claiming it. That iOS is sticky for customers is well-established - see the AI article on "very satisfied" customers in the user polls today - but this shows the tendency for iOS to be sticky for developers as well. Lots of developers have at least dabbled in Android under the idea that someday it'll get better and/or become dominant, but if iOS continues to deliver the goods for developers while Android doesn't, developer experiments with Android may start to wane.



    I have great doubt about Tegra cpu. Why they never been any device open for developer with the first Tegra? For sure there is a lot of "believer" for Tegra, but never they never proof them self with real product. While I never seen any direct benchmark for the Tegra 2 and A5 GPU, and if you will find there is very very little info on how much power the Tegra 2 can drain, but I'm betting on the PowerVR tiles technology being 4x-10x more power efficient than Nvidia, this would explain why we never seen any successful phone with Tegra cpu within.
  • Reply 26 of 68
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


    I have great doubt about Tegra cpu. Why they never been any device open for developer with the first Tegra? For sure there is a lot of "believer" for Tegra, but never they never proof them self with real product. While I never seen any direct benchmark for the Tegra 2 and A5 GPU, and if you will find there is very very little info on how much power the Tegra 2 can drain, but I'm betting on the PowerVR tiles technology being 4x-10x more power efficient than Nvidia, this would explain why we never seen any successful phone with Tegra cpu within.



    What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.



    For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.



    There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.
  • Reply 27 of 68
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipoo View Post


    An ARM Cortex A8 at 1GHz equivalent to a single 360 processor core? I'm giving that a [citation needed]





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruc...ons_per_second



    The whole tri-core processor outputs 19,200 MIPS. An A8 like the iPad 1 outputs 2,000 MIPS at peak. And its 6 instructions per cycle vs 2. Even if you divide the former score by three, your nowhere close.



    And yes, I do know MIPS aren't a perfect indicator of performance, but they should give you a general sense of where things are.





    All I can say is, in my field, so many times I saw people interpreted raw data obtained from internet wrongly. (they usually don't understand the term discussed or they just failed to count lots of variables in the real world)
  • Reply 28 of 68
    recrec Posts: 217member
    Speaking as someone who is a X360, PS3 and iOS developer, I can say that Sweeney is right. The amount of actual horsepower you can get out of a mobile chip now like the A5 is pretty staggering.
  • Reply 29 of 68
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,404member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    I agree with the guy. I've only owned my iPad2 for less than a week and I'm not really a gamer, but I've been playing more games than I thought with it. Everything is pretty smooth on the iPad2.



    Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.



    Wish I could get my $4.99 back.
  • Reply 30 of 68
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.



    For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.



    There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.



    Beside the sparse Xoom, as is today there is a lot announcement but nothing on the market... There is a lot of talk but very little fact and real product that proving Tegra's power. Right now it's as good as the Samsung hummingbird.



    The battery killer on the iPad is it IPS screen that need a lot more backlighting because of being less translucent than el cheapo TN screen you will find on the Xoom and any other lesser tablets. This is where the Xoom is gaining back is battery life, beside I have'nt seen number on worst case scenario (hard online gaming) battery life for the Xoom, I can tell for the iPad you've always got a least 6 h.
  • Reply 31 of 68
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.



    Wish I could get my $4.99 back.



    I have Garageband also. I haven't gotten a chance to play with it a whole lot, but I haven't had any crashes yet, though I don't doubt that you are. If there are some bugs in it, then surely Apple will be releasing a new update eventually.



    As a quick musical sketchpad, I find it to be alright. And I like the fact that you can begin an idea on the iPad and then move the file over to a real Mac for more serious business.
  • Reply 32 of 68
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post


    Beside the sparse Xoom, as is today there is a lot announcement but nothing on the market... There is a lot of talk but very little fact and real product that proving Tegra's power. Right now it's as good as the Samsung hummingbird.



    The battery killer on the iPad is it IPS screen that need a lot more backlighting because of being less translucent than el cheapo TN screen you will find on the Xoom and any other lesser tablets. This is where the Xoom is gaining back is battery life, beside I have'nt seen number on worst case scenario (hard online gaming) battery life for the Xoom, I can tell for the iPad you've always got a least 6 h.



    THe LG optimus has released devices with Tegra2. The Atrix is a tegra2 device (battery issues here related to BLUR, not processor). The Bionic should be out within a month, as will other devices.



    There is a LOT of stuff out there demonstrating the capabilities of Tegra devices, both in battery life and in graphics processing. Again, I don't know where you've been reading otherwise.



    If you're looking for a closer comparison to the Ipad, you'll have to wait until the Asus Transformer, because that is also a IPS display device (though higher pixel density)



    But again, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say here. On one hand you're saying that there's next to no information out there on what a Tegra device can do, and on the other you're dismissing Tegra as being inferior. You cannot hold both positions.
  • Reply 33 of 68
    archosarchos Posts: 152member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipoo View Post


    *Shrugs*

    Fair enough, but like I said its not like developers have never overhyped a new platform they are developing for before.



    Epic is not some small iOS developer. The company has games on every major platform, from PC to the big consoles. If something has the potential to make money, they'll be doing it. As the guy points out, iOS is where the money is. They're not going to embarrass themselves talking crap about another platform just to get in Apple's good graces. The suggestion that you make is simply embarrassing for you.



    Do you also think everyone is prejudiced against Linux, or that nobody ports games for it because there's simply no business model backing it up?



    This interview really indicates that the whole "Android won the smartphone and will take over tablets real soon now" meme is completely delusional. Android has been selling more handsets for a while now, and the software market hasn't made any parallel progress. It's still stuck in Linux-land.



    This isn't a situation that's likely to change among smartphones, where there is already an Android lead. It's sure not going to happen in Tablets, where the iPad has crushed any hope that there will be some mass defection to alternative platforms with no apps, no standards, no support for web standards, no cost advantages, and no support for iTunes.
  • Reply 34 of 68
    bigmac2bigmac2 Posts: 639member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    THe LG optimus has released devices with Tegra2. The Atrix is a tegra2 device (battery issues here related to BLUR, not processor). The Bionic should be out within a month, as will other devices.



    There is a LOT of stuff out there demonstrating the capabilities of Tegra devices, both in battery life and in graphics processing. Again, I don't know where you've been reading otherwise.



    If you're looking for a closer comparison to the Ipad, you'll have to wait until the Asus Transformer, because that is also a IPS display device (though higher pixel density)



    But again, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say here. On one hand you're saying that there's next to no information out there on what a Tegra device can do, and on the other you're dismissing Tegra as being inferior. You cannot hold both positions.



    What I was saying is, base on the fact that all bench on Tegra 2 power efficiency is base on the whole device and no real TDW numbers, the Tegra 2 could be a fat hog (remember the Pentium 4) of the mobile space.



    I'm open to argue, but I think Apple with his A5 got the best mobile CPU out there.



    P.S. I will not hold my breath for seeing with my own eyes the Transformer (lame name).
  • Reply 35 of 68
    nkalunkalu Posts: 315member
    I knew it.
  • Reply 36 of 68
    Menno, I'd be interested in reading the sites where you're seeing the Xoom get 'approximately' the same battery life as the iPad - the tests I've seen have indicated the iPad 2 gets 30-50% more life out of a battery (cnet, Mossberg, Consumer Reports). I'm also not aware of any real caveats regarding the Anandtech speed tests that showed the iPad 2 being much faster on most graphics tasks.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    What? Practically all new Android tablets (and most handets) are using the tegra2 chipset. The reason you haven't seen benchmarks for it yet (at least decent ones) is because the benchmarking apps weren't updated to take advantage of Tegra2 OR Honeycomb/Gingerbread.



    For battery life, the Xoom gets approximately the same battery life as an iPAD (1 or 2) does if you're comparing similar content so power drain doesn't seem to be an issue.



    There are dozens of articles out there about Tegra2, about battery information, rendering, etc.. Not sure how you're saying there is very little information out there for it.



  • Reply 37 of 68
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Not everything. Garageband (I know, I know, it's not a game, but had to vent) crashes regularly. Useless piece of eye-candy.



    Wish I could get my $4.99 back.



    Take 2 minutes to report it. You'll get your money back within a couple days.
  • Reply 38 of 68
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by artificialintel View Post


    Menno, I'd be interested in reading the sites where you're seeing the Xoom get 'approximately' the same battery life as the iPad - the tests I've seen have indicated the iPad 2 gets 30-50% more life out of a battery (cnet, Mossberg, Consumer Reports). I'm also not aware of any real caveats regarding the Anandtech speed tests that showed the iPad 2 being much faster on most graphics tasks.







    Forbes says both xoom and ipad get 10 hours or so, depending on usage.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/marcwebertob...business-tool/



    Scobleizer:

    http://scobleizer.com/2011/02/23/an-...motorola-xoom/



    Engadget Review"

    http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/23/m...a-xoom-review/

    (within an hour of ipad)



    anandtech:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4191/m...let-arrives/14



    There are others, but those are the 4 I remembered off the top of my head.



    I refuse to pay Consumer Reports Paywall, so I don't know what methodology they used. I do know with Cnet for their tests they used a 720p version of a movie with a third party movie player for the Xoom, and they used a iPad Optimized version of the movie for the ipad.. pretty sure that will have significant weight when it comes to battery life. It's been awhile since I read mossbergs review, but I'm sure I saw that other reviewers commented on his review saying his battery results were not what they were seeing.
  • Reply 39 of 68
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member


  • Reply 40 of 68
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post





    The first test had the xoom within an hour of the ipad (less than 10%). The second was a lot lower (4 hours). I'm not sure why they didn't have a video test in the xoom review. Other links I gave still gave similar results between the two platforms (they lasted similar times) when comparing video playback, so it would be interesting to see what the difference was. Were they using a third party player on the xoom? And I've read of people getting bframes to to work fine on the xoom (some using third party players there)



    While others have the xoom pegged at 10 hour battery life: http://news.consumerreports.org/elec...tery-life.html (the ipad2 is at 12, still higher, but not as big a gap)





    And you're right, display tech is different. But so is screen resolution, web load times, Contrast ratio, backgrounding capabilities, etc. You can't have totally "equal" comparisons because they're operating different hardware AND software.
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