To be fair to Samsung (& all the other phone manufacturers out there) there's not really anything they can do about having a similar look to the iPhone.
But that's the point. Before iPhone, "smartphones" looked like a Blackberry or a Trio - they had a half size screen, and of course you needed a keyboard, right? And perhaps a stylus. So how could any smartphone look (or function) different? Well along came Apple and by innovation, made a smartphone that did look different and did function differently. Apple wants Samsung et al. to innovate their own differences, not copy Apple.
I just hope Apple has alternate suppliers lined up. It can be dangerous when you sleep with the enemy.
Samsung didn't even bother to deny Apple's copycat allegation! i guess they couldn't quickly think of anything to say that wasn't ridiculous on its face.
game over.
this lawsuit is not about winning in court, guys. that will take years. forget who is "right" technically. this suit is about winning in consumer/market perceptions - now. Apple is chopping at Samsung's reputation right now, branding them as a second-rate knockoff product. not the "real thing." it's an attempt to define their opponent before they can define themselves - classic political tactics.
so if this charge "sticks," it will hurt Samsung. they will probably tweak their UI later this year to make the copying less obvious, but the damage is done.
I don't know why you say that. First, Apple won an injunction against Future Power for manufacturing iMac knock offs. Second, Apple got Meizu to stop manufacturing its M8 iPhone knock off (using the Chinese legal process to boot). Third, and this is the most important one, Apple was successful in proving Microsoft stole the copyrighted look and feel of its Mac OS. Ultimately, Apple lost the case because the Court found Apple gave Microsoft a license to use elements of Apple's Mac OS. The judge did however find Apple had a valid copyright in the look and feel of the OS.
Trade dress is also an actionable lawsuit, where one company creates a look or environment and another copies it. Do an internet search, there are tons of restaurants suing other restaurants for emulating the others environment.
I hear what you're saying. Here's Apple's problem: They won that Future Power suit because they could easily demonstrate that computers came in all kinds of shapes and sizes, and Future Power DID NOT have to make a computer that looked like an iMac. That was a clearly-defined issue.
But when it comes to smartphones - just read some of the other comments on this board. They do more or less look alike. They're black BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE! (Look at the trouble Apple's had with a white iPhone.) Their front facing is mostly a touchscreen - because it (more or less) has to be. And so on. There's at least nowhere near the variation in smartphone design that there is in computers - or even among cell phones before smartphones came along!
Re Apple vs MS - You said it yourself: Apple lost its case. We'll never know what might have happened, despite the finding you cite. The court may have been willing to grant Apple's points because it knew it would throw the whole thing out in the end based on Apple's licensing. We will never know what, absent that licensing issue, might really have happened.
Re Meizu - you have a point. In fact, your reasoning is quite sound. I'd grant that, at best, Apple gets the court to give Samsung a slap on the wrist, telling them to differentiate their product more clearly. But given the circumstances I cited above, I think that is the best Apple can hope for. (The phone DOES clearly say 'Samsung' already. The court will say 'make the logo bigger' or some such thing.) But Samsung will continue to sell their products, and they will continue to look a lot like Apple's products.
What can I tell ya. Except for the branding, McDonald's looks and operates a lot like Burger King.
And even the original iPhone has some design elements similar to Samsung's FC700 shown months before Apple released any images of their smartphone. IMHO, this isn't as clear-cut an issue as might be imagined.
Didn't realize Samsung has a "dock connector" on their devices too. What a blatant ripoff. No other company uses a dock connector for their devices, let alone one that looks practically identical to Apple's. Look and feel aside, Samsung copies Apple on hardware/internal components too. Hope Apple wins this. It's one thing to copy the style of the iPhone, its another to try and mirror it. Even HP's new webOS devices look more unique than Samsung's offerings.
And that's exactly Apple's point. There was a large variety of different devices before the iPhone came out and no one unifying theme. Then Apple introduced the iPhone and suddenly dozens of near clones appear.
Too bad none of the major phone manufacturers was able to innovate on their own.
bingo.
Interesting that Samsung has this belief about Apple but it doesn't come out in all the years since the iphone was introduced and Samsung was making parts for that product and related.
And then AFTER Apple sues over the blatantly copied look and feel of this new phone, Samsung suddenly feels they must act to protect their patents.
My guess is that Apple will win getting Samsung's counter dropped, will allow Samsung to settle out and suddenly Samsung will start getting less and less contracts for parts as Apple continues to find new suppliers due to the high demand that Samsung can't seem to keep up with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek
The OS is also very similar & Apple should sue google accordingly.
Apple is suing over the OS. Or rather the UI. It's called a "look and feel" patent. ANd similar to trademarks you have to defend patents to a point. If you ignore someone blatantly using your patented material for too long the courts are less likely to judge in your favor. They might perhaps and then say that you can't prove actual damages so you get none and since you let it go for X months you don't get any statutory damages either. Look and Feel Patents in particular are at risk for this kind of treatment. Thus Apple needs to sue to show that they are going to protect their patent.
Now they are not suing Google because they understand the game. Google is responsible for the core of the OS, and left the UI up to the other boys. So it was Samsung, not Google that picked the offending style. Thus Samsung that gets sued.
To some point it is a game. Samsung likely believes that Apple needs them as a component supplier too much to balk at anything they do, Apple believes they don't (as the ipad stories are showing us there are other games in town and Apple left themselves contractually able to go play with them) so they won't be bullied into allowing anything.
Personally I think that Apple will win in the end. Any common person would say that Samsung copied iOS (a test in court) and Apple likely has more than enough proof that they did all the proper licensing to the proper folks of any patents or they are based on prior Apple work, or pass the 'improved to the point of being something new' test built into patent law. And as I said before, Samsung may find their orders for parts dropping until they aren't getting anymore from Apple. And when they do get orders, Apple will be strict to dictate terms that favor them as much as possible.
To some point it is a game. Samsung likely believes that Apple needs them as a component supplier too much to balk at anything they do, Apple believes they don't (as the ipad stories are showing us there are other games in town and Apple left themselves contractually able to go play with them) so they won't be bullied into allowing anything.
If Samsung thinks they have enough clout over Apple in this fight, they are sorely mistaken. The company who brings in the final customer always has an outsized advantage because he can take those customers elsewhere. There are other component manufacturers out there who would jump at the chance to be a major supplier to Apple's final customeers. And with an Apple purchase order in hand, banks will be running over each other offering this firm the financing needed to ramp up production.
Nah, this is not a good situation for Samsung but it's not really that big a deal. Nobody's going for a kill shot here. Lawsuits between mega-corporations is just negotiation by other means.
this lawsuit is not about winning in court, guys. that will take years. forget who is "right" technically. this suit is about winning in consumer/market perceptions - now. Apple is chopping at Samsung's reputation right now, branding them as a second-rate knockoff product. not the "real thing." it's an attempt to define their opponent before they can define themselves - classic political tactics.
so if this charge "sticks," it will hurt Samsung. they will probably tweak their UI later this year to make the copying less obvious, but the damage is done.
You should realize that only Apple fans care about those lawsuits.
Everyone else either doesn't know/care about those lawsuits or they are part of the "Anti iOS - GOGO Android".
In the end the outcome will depend on why exactly Apple choose Samsung as a supplier, and if Samsung can easily be replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy
There are other component manufacturers out there who would jump at the chance to be a major supplier to Apple's final customeers.
There is a reason as to why Apple did pick Samsung.
Quote:
And with an Apple purchase order in hand, banks will be running over each other offering this firm the financing needed to ramp up production.
Yeah, but Apples market share my have a big hit by then, because they couldn't meet the initial demand. (ramp up takes it's time, quite a lot that is :>)
Quote:
Nah, this is not a good situation for Samsung but it's not really that big a deal. Nobody's going for a kill shot here. Lawsuits between mega-corporations is just negotiation by other means.
That's probably what they're aiming for. Others are closing up to Apple in Quality, while maintaining a lower price.
I tend to be skeptical of those who are rabid in suggesting that anything with a touchscreen on it, is a copy of an Apple product. But that said, Samsung does go out of its way to imitate Apple products.
Android affords them plenty of opportunity to differentiate themselves. Yet, they choose to stick to a look and feel that's reminiscent of Apple. The Nexus One has the scroll list of apps. Samsung uses pages of apps on a grid (like Apple). TouchWiz just seems to me like an iOS skin on Android. And Bada (for non-Android phones) is similar too. The look of the hardware is also way too close to Apple's products too. Indeed, as any Android user, I actually find their attempts to copy Apple rather annoying and undesirable. And they copy the worst features of Apple's products. I'm using Android because I want a different look and feel. If I wanted something like the iPhone...I would've bought the iPhone.
I hope this lawsuit smartens them up. At least make something that improves the experience for pete's sake. HTC Sense, for example, is decent. TouchWiz is just annoying.
if people illegally share music, CDs, Files, the musicians, or companies, who pay for making of that product, either would have to stop making it, or make up for the losses with Live Performances. Then it's Catch 22 from there on, a Vicious Cycle - the Big Name Stars pack stadiums, the No Name Talents are lucky to be playing in some bar etc... Thus the Starts can make up their losses from the illegal music sharing, while the No Names are lucky to be paying rent...
Lets to try to translate that Samsung and Others Clone/Clown Approach to Music and vs with some analogies.... Let's say....
Stevie Wonder just released "I Just Called To Say I Love You"... http://bit.ly/gvdhqA
The next day, or so, a bunch other Big Names released their songs under different Titles/Names, packaged slightly differently, like in different poster, or font color etc! ( a hardware analogy). The melody and lyrics are almost identical, plus a slight accents, cause of the International Factor ( ( not just a a hardware analogy)... Those Other Titles cost either the same as Stevie Wonder's song, or slightly less!!! They are sold in many more stores worldwide!!!!
As people by those other songs, they clearly see that it's a "rip off", a copy of Stevie Wonder just released "I Just Called To Say I Love You"... In some cases an a copy is pretty good, and sometimes not... Some people would like to explore more "works" from those Clone Artists, but they quickly realize that those Clone Artists don't compose their own music, No "Echo System", like is the case with Stevie Wonder, who not only composed a lot of great music, but also performs it!!! I'll stop that analogy without the heroism of Stevie Wonder being blind, where the heroism speaks for itself!!!
Apple can't be accused of the lack of Echo System! Steve Jobs is heroic in his Battle against Cancer!
If people buy those other Rip Off Songs, cause they are a good enough reminder of what they would rather have, in some cases, but don't want to pay for, Stevie Wonder's ORIGINAL MUSIC, that doesn't help Stevie...
The problem with that Analogy is...
Stevie and many other musicians will always be musicians, making music, even if the pay is not the greatest!
In Technology the Costs of Research and Development are very high! If the companies can't make enough $$ to recoup the costs, they die and or are taken over, bought out...
It's a Tough Balance for Apple and the rest of the Tech World ... The Patents Universe is full of abuses... I hope Apple wins this case!!! Ideally, I'd love them to win against Android, which looks like a rip off in some cases too...
With such HEART STABBING (Google, Eric Schmidt, Samsung and on and on)!!!!
Steve Jobs is still getting up every morning, and does his magic, plus his best against CANCER!!!!
Whose Team do people want to be on?
If at least some JUSTICE is not done, unlike(?) in music, there will be New Technology, but further in the future... The Innovation will be more rare... Fewer of us will see it, because will ALL be dead before then... But, if HONESTY wins, we might see more GENIUS STUFF while we are still alive...
And I'll bite my tongue before I go into comparing mannequins, or Blow Up Dolls, to The Real Thing!!!! But quickly... Even if one is to be kept at Human Temperature, it's still NOT HUMAN, No Soul, No "ECHO SYSTEM" etc...!!!
Who would YOU rather "sleep" with?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Apple knows that Samsung is currently crucial to its ability to get product in stores, but because of the way patent law works, Apple basically had to sue Samsung to protect its intellectual property since Galaxy devices blatantly copy Apple’s designs. My colleague Kevin Tofel has noted that Samsung is clearly trying to mimic Apple’s successful branding strategy with Galaxy devices, and the similarities surely aren’t lost on customers. Basically, because of the way patent law is set up, Apple had to sue first and then can negotiate later in order to work out potential licensing deals with Samsung. Continuing to let things slide would have weakened its claims regarding held patents. Behind the scenes, the two companies are doubtless negotiating furiously over who will get paid what for various licenses — a fight occurring all over the smartphone word at this moment."
Comments
To be fair to Samsung (& all the other phone manufacturers out there) there's not really anything they can do about having a similar look to the iPhone.
But that's the point. Before iPhone, "smartphones" looked like a Blackberry or a Trio - they had a half size screen, and of course you needed a keyboard, right? And perhaps a stylus. So how could any smartphone look (or function) different? Well along came Apple and by innovation, made a smartphone that did look different and did function differently. Apple wants Samsung et al. to innovate their own differences, not copy Apple.
I just hope Apple has alternate suppliers lined up. It can be dangerous when you sleep with the enemy.
So what radical form are manufacturers supposed to take to not look similar to each other?
What do you want to bet that is the same question Steve Jobs posed, more or less, to his design team?
game over.
this lawsuit is not about winning in court, guys. that will take years. forget who is "right" technically. this suit is about winning in consumer/market perceptions - now. Apple is chopping at Samsung's reputation right now, branding them as a second-rate knockoff product. not the "real thing." it's an attempt to define their opponent before they can define themselves - classic political tactics.
so if this charge "sticks," it will hurt Samsung. they will probably tweak their UI later this year to make the copying less obvious, but the damage is done.
I don't know why you say that. First, Apple won an injunction against Future Power for manufacturing iMac knock offs. Second, Apple got Meizu to stop manufacturing its M8 iPhone knock off (using the Chinese legal process to boot). Third, and this is the most important one, Apple was successful in proving Microsoft stole the copyrighted look and feel of its Mac OS. Ultimately, Apple lost the case because the Court found Apple gave Microsoft a license to use elements of Apple's Mac OS. The judge did however find Apple had a valid copyright in the look and feel of the OS.
Trade dress is also an actionable lawsuit, where one company creates a look or environment and another copies it. Do an internet search, there are tons of restaurants suing other restaurants for emulating the others environment.
I hear what you're saying. Here's Apple's problem: They won that Future Power suit because they could easily demonstrate that computers came in all kinds of shapes and sizes, and Future Power DID NOT have to make a computer that looked like an iMac. That was a clearly-defined issue.
But when it comes to smartphones - just read some of the other comments on this board. They do more or less look alike. They're black BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE! (Look at the trouble Apple's had with a white iPhone.) Their front facing is mostly a touchscreen - because it (more or less) has to be. And so on. There's at least nowhere near the variation in smartphone design that there is in computers - or even among cell phones before smartphones came along!
Re Apple vs MS - You said it yourself: Apple lost its case. We'll never know what might have happened, despite the finding you cite. The court may have been willing to grant Apple's points because it knew it would throw the whole thing out in the end based on Apple's licensing. We will never know what, absent that licensing issue, might really have happened.
Re Meizu - you have a point. In fact, your reasoning is quite sound. I'd grant that, at best, Apple gets the court to give Samsung a slap on the wrist, telling them to differentiate their product more clearly. But given the circumstances I cited above, I think that is the best Apple can hope for. (The phone DOES clearly say 'Samsung' already. The court will say 'make the logo bigger' or some such thing.) But Samsung will continue to sell their products, and they will continue to look a lot like Apple's products.
What can I tell ya. Except for the branding, McDonald's looks and operates a lot like Burger King.
And even the original iPhone has some design elements similar to Samsung's FC700 shown months before Apple released any images of their smartphone. IMHO, this isn't as clear-cut an issue as might be imagined.
And that's exactly Apple's point. There was a large variety of different devices before the iPhone came out and no one unifying theme. Then Apple introduced the iPhone and suddenly dozens of near clones appear.
Too bad none of the major phone manufacturers was able to innovate on their own.
bingo.
Interesting that Samsung has this belief about Apple but it doesn't come out in all the years since the iphone was introduced and Samsung was making parts for that product and related.
And then AFTER Apple sues over the blatantly copied look and feel of this new phone, Samsung suddenly feels they must act to protect their patents.
My guess is that Apple will win getting Samsung's counter dropped, will allow Samsung to settle out and suddenly Samsung will start getting less and less contracts for parts as Apple continues to find new suppliers due to the high demand that Samsung can't seem to keep up with.
The OS is also very similar & Apple should sue google accordingly.
Apple is suing over the OS. Or rather the UI. It's called a "look and feel" patent. ANd similar to trademarks you have to defend patents to a point. If you ignore someone blatantly using your patented material for too long the courts are less likely to judge in your favor. They might perhaps and then say that you can't prove actual damages so you get none and since you let it go for X months you don't get any statutory damages either. Look and Feel Patents in particular are at risk for this kind of treatment. Thus Apple needs to sue to show that they are going to protect their patent.
Now they are not suing Google because they understand the game. Google is responsible for the core of the OS, and left the UI up to the other boys. So it was Samsung, not Google that picked the offending style. Thus Samsung that gets sued.
To some point it is a game. Samsung likely believes that Apple needs them as a component supplier too much to balk at anything they do, Apple believes they don't (as the ipad stories are showing us there are other games in town and Apple left themselves contractually able to go play with them) so they won't be bullied into allowing anything.
Personally I think that Apple will win in the end. Any common person would say that Samsung copied iOS (a test in court) and Apple likely has more than enough proof that they did all the proper licensing to the proper folks of any patents or they are based on prior Apple work, or pass the 'improved to the point of being something new' test built into patent law. And as I said before, Samsung may find their orders for parts dropping until they aren't getting anymore from Apple. And when they do get orders, Apple will be strict to dictate terms that favor them as much as possible.
Nothing as good for business as cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Are you talking about Samsung or Apple or both?
To some point it is a game. Samsung likely believes that Apple needs them as a component supplier too much to balk at anything they do, Apple believes they don't (as the ipad stories are showing us there are other games in town and Apple left themselves contractually able to go play with them) so they won't be bullied into allowing anything.
If Samsung thinks they have enough clout over Apple in this fight, they are sorely mistaken. The company who brings in the final customer always has an outsized advantage because he can take those customers elsewhere. There are other component manufacturers out there who would jump at the chance to be a major supplier to Apple's final customeers. And with an Apple purchase order in hand, banks will be running over each other offering this firm the financing needed to ramp up production.
Nah, this is not a good situation for Samsung but it's not really that big a deal. Nobody's going for a kill shot here. Lawsuits between mega-corporations is just negotiation by other means.
this lawsuit is not about winning in court, guys. that will take years. forget who is "right" technically. this suit is about winning in consumer/market perceptions - now. Apple is chopping at Samsung's reputation right now, branding them as a second-rate knockoff product. not the "real thing." it's an attempt to define their opponent before they can define themselves - classic political tactics.
so if this charge "sticks," it will hurt Samsung. they will probably tweak their UI later this year to make the copying less obvious, but the damage is done.
You should realize that only Apple fans care about those lawsuits.
Everyone else either doesn't know/care about those lawsuits or they are part of the "Anti iOS - GOGO Android".
In the end the outcome will depend on why exactly Apple choose Samsung as a supplier, and if Samsung can easily be replaced.
There are other component manufacturers out there who would jump at the chance to be a major supplier to Apple's final customeers.
There is a reason as to why Apple did pick Samsung.
And with an Apple purchase order in hand, banks will be running over each other offering this firm the financing needed to ramp up production.
Yeah, but Apples market share my have a big hit by then, because they couldn't meet the initial demand. (ramp up takes it's time, quite a lot that is :>)
Nah, this is not a good situation for Samsung but it's not really that big a deal. Nobody's going for a kill shot here. Lawsuits between mega-corporations is just negotiation by other means.
That's probably what they're aiming for. Others are closing up to Apple in Quality, while maintaining a lower price.
Android affords them plenty of opportunity to differentiate themselves. Yet, they choose to stick to a look and feel that's reminiscent of Apple. The Nexus One has the scroll list of apps. Samsung uses pages of apps on a grid (like Apple). TouchWiz just seems to me like an iOS skin on Android. And Bada (for non-Android phones) is similar too. The look of the hardware is also way too close to Apple's products too. Indeed, as any Android user, I actually find their attempts to copy Apple rather annoying and undesirable. And they copy the worst features of Apple's products. I'm using Android because I want a different look and feel. If I wanted something like the iPhone...I would've bought the iPhone.
I hope this lawsuit smartens them up. At least make something that improves the experience for pete's sake. HTC Sense, for example, is decent. TouchWiz is just annoying.
if people illegally share music, CDs, Files, the musicians, or companies, who pay for making of that product, either would have to stop making it, or make up for the losses with Live Performances. Then it's Catch 22 from there on, a Vicious Cycle - the Big Name Stars pack stadiums, the No Name Talents are lucky to be playing in some bar etc... Thus the Starts can make up their losses from the illegal music sharing, while the No Names are lucky to be paying rent...
Lets to try to translate that Samsung and Others Clone/Clown Approach to Music and vs with some analogies.... Let's say....
Stevie Wonder just released "I Just Called To Say I Love You"... http://bit.ly/gvdhqA
The next day, or so, a bunch other Big Names released their songs under different Titles/Names, packaged slightly differently, like in different poster, or font color etc! ( a hardware analogy). The melody and lyrics are almost identical, plus a slight accents, cause of the International Factor ( ( not just a a hardware analogy)... Those Other Titles cost either the same as Stevie Wonder's song, or slightly less!!! They are sold in many more stores worldwide!!!!
As people by those other songs, they clearly see that it's a "rip off", a copy of Stevie Wonder just released "I Just Called To Say I Love You"... In some cases an a copy is pretty good, and sometimes not... Some people would like to explore more "works" from those Clone Artists, but they quickly realize that those Clone Artists don't compose their own music, No "Echo System", like is the case with Stevie Wonder, who not only composed a lot of great music, but also performs it!!! I'll stop that analogy without the heroism of Stevie Wonder being blind, where the heroism speaks for itself!!!
Apple can't be accused of the lack of Echo System! Steve Jobs is heroic in his Battle against Cancer!
If people buy those other Rip Off Songs, cause they are a good enough reminder of what they would rather have, in some cases, but don't want to pay for, Stevie Wonder's ORIGINAL MUSIC, that doesn't help Stevie...
The problem with that Analogy is...
Stevie and many other musicians will always be musicians, making music, even if the pay is not the greatest!
In Technology the Costs of Research and Development are very high! If the companies can't make enough $$ to recoup the costs, they die and or are taken over, bought out...
It's a Tough Balance for Apple and the rest of the Tech World ... The Patents Universe is full of abuses... I hope Apple wins this case!!! Ideally, I'd love them to win against Android, which looks like a rip off in some cases too...
With such HEART STABBING (Google, Eric Schmidt, Samsung and on and on)!!!!
Steve Jobs is still getting up every morning, and does his magic, plus his best against CANCER!!!!
Whose Team do people want to be on?
If at least some JUSTICE is not done, unlike(?) in music, there will be New Technology, but further in the future... The Innovation will be more rare... Fewer of us will see it, because will ALL be dead before then... But, if HONESTY wins, we might see more GENIUS STUFF while we are still alive...
And I'll bite my tongue before I go into comparing mannequins, or Blow Up Dolls, to The Real Thing
Who would YOU rather "sleep" with
GIGAOM