Apple tops Nokia to become world's largest handset maker by revenue

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  • Reply 61 of 101
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Yeah I do. If you are willing to pay the price, then fine I don't care about that. Personally I look at a number of factors before purchasing things, obviously you don't share the same thoughts when it comes to purchasing items.



    I do pay attention to what I purchase. You are absolutely right I do not share the same thoughts as you.



    Quote:

    But getting back to where I was going, from a consumers view, if one company is selling x units, and making y, and another is selling less than x, and making more than y, then it is pretty obvious is making a lot more money per unit than the first one, so charging more.



    This is not true at all. There can be big difference between products that are well thought out and crafted to be great products. Versus products that are mass produced cheaply using commodity materials.



    Simply because one company charges more does not necessarily mean they are making a lot more money. Often it can mean they are providing a higher quality product or service that warrants higher prices. These companies are targeting customer satisfaction and loyalty in such a way that in the long run they will make make more money than their cheaper commodity competitors.
  • Reply 62 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thenewperson View Post


    I actually don't think they care about that. In fact, I think the consumers are smart enough to see that low priced Nokia phones aren't in the same league as an iPhone - that's another viewpoint.



    oh course not, why would you even mention them as they are two very different devices, that would be like comparing a Ford Focus to a BMW M5. You would need to compare their similar models.
  • Reply 63 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muppetry View Post


    So just to be clear on this - you are arguing that all smartphones should be the same price? If so, how far would you extend that principle? Should all cars be the same price? All TVs? I think I'm missing something in your reasoning.



    No I am not arguing that, in fact you couldn't be further from the truth in regard to what I am saying.
  • Reply 64 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Sounds like he?s saying he judges the value of a product to his needs based on a company?s efficiency at doing business.



    You wouldn't have a clue with I am saying, and I thought you had promisef to ignore me, or was this just something else you have made up?
  • Reply 65 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Simply because one company charges more does not necessarily mean they are making a lot more money. Often it can mean they are providing a higher quality product or service that warrants higher prices. These companies are targeting customer satisfaction and loyalty in such a way that in the long run they will make make more money than their cheaper commodity competitors.



    So if the BOM etc of two products are the same, then the one selling their one for more isn't making more money?
  • Reply 66 of 101
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    No - not necessarily. If people don't buy the more expensive product then that company does not make more money.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    So if the BOM etc of two products are the same, then the one selling their one for more isn't making more money?



  • Reply 67 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


    I can agree with everything you stated... that's why my outlook is for WP8 and 2013. Although yes, I have my doubts about Nokia being in the mix... MS will be there.



    Once MS has their own enterprise-based eco-system re: Office apps coupled with Live services, working smoothly between all Win-based platforms... it will be a juggernaut again.



    And once again... I am NOT an MS fan... just a realist.



    MS had all that with Win Mobile and look where it got them. No, people just don't care about it any more. the iPhone even integrates into MS's Exchange better than WP7 does. MS wont have the time to do what it needs to. the security is poor, the apps are poor. There's really nothing special about it. its different, that's all. And that's not enough any more.



    Marketshare is continuing to go down. it's pretty much dead here. Nokia is their only chance, and I don't see that as doing more than making it a fourth, at best. I don't believe that Symbian fans are going to leap into the arms of MS. And we're now seeing Symbian phones from Nokia beginning a slide. The quarter before, Symbian phones sales rose 38% YOY. This past quarter it was about even.



    With Elop announcing that Symbian is burning, and they're going to jump into the cold waters of WP7, he told people to not buy any more Symbian phones. He's been telling developers to leave Symbian, and move to WP7.



    By the time, in early 2012, when Nokia has a couple of WP7 phones out, their smartphone sales will be diminished. WP7 will be trying to take from that smaller base, while others will have moved on to iOS, Android, and to a smaller extent, the BB. Why should they stay?



    I really don't understand how they came to the conclusion that such an unpopular OS would sell so well in Europe under the Nokia brand. Elop himself said that it was a big risk that may not work out.



    And without Nokia, WP7 is toast.
  • Reply 68 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Because the iPhone that took off in Europe isn't the one that was commented on. It has evolved since then, different hardware, different OS, it isn't the same phone.



    Just like every other phone. There's nothing new in that. And the iPhone wasn't released in Europe the same time it was here. That's another reason why it took off later, because it came out there later.
  • Reply 69 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Are you being serious with this comment?



    If someone sells less units, but makes more money, then from a consumers point of view you are being overcharged for the item. From the shareholders point of view they are doing a great job. Two different perspectives of the same result.



    You're not making any sense. The iPhone is an expensive phone, but no more so than the top of the line Nokia models, which haven't sold nearly as well.



    Don't say we're being overcharged, that silly, and you know it. it's not Apple's fault that these other companies are so inefficient.



    Nokia has 200 phone models. The amount of money they must spend on R&D for all those models is horrendous, and it's been one of the big questions that's been asked the past year; why doesn't Nokia get its moneys worth out of its R&D. Simple. It's spread out so thin, that no one model is getting enough R&D to be what it has to. Hence, all the cheap phones, and all the features that don't work well, even though the hardware for their better phones is well made.



    Nokia also has to spread marketing and support amongst all those models. That costs a lot of money. That's why they're not doing well financially.



    Apple is doing what it should be doing. It's margins are high, but no more than any other well managed manufacturing company in high tech. Unfortunately, computers and phones are a commodity item in most cases, and manufacturers can't charge what they should, because of all the other drab phones all their competitors are selling.



    Again, not Apple's fault.



    Nokia ignored the iPhone for years, despite many people in the industry saying they should respond. Even in mid 2010, Ollie was saying that the iPhone was a boutique phone, and that Nokia wasn't concerned about it. Where is he now?



    And its not just the iPhone, its Android as well, on both the high end, where the iPhone competes, and the low end as well. By that, I mean smartphones, of course. Nokia didn't pay attention to that either.
  • Reply 70 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Yeah I do. If you are willing to pay the price, then fine I don't care about that. Personally I look at a number of factors before purchasing things, obviously you don't share the same thoughts when it comes to purchasing items.



    But getting back to where I was going, from a consumers view, if one company is selling x units, and making y, and another is selling less than x, and making more than y, then it is pretty obvious is making a lot more money per unit than the first one, so charging more.



    It's not obvious. You don't understand economics. The N8 cost the same as the iPhone when it first came out. I already explained Nokia's poor management with too many models. It's their fault that it costs too much to R&D, support, manufacture and market.



    Nokia pulled out of Japan entirely a year ago. their sales are almost non-existant in N America. They're being killed in China by cheap Chinese manufacturers. This all hurts, and raises their costs. They're probably selling phones in China at break even or less in order to attempt to keep marketshare, but it's not working.



    Dell did the same thing for years in order to raise their marketshare, and their margins suffered. Acer did the same on their quest to become the largest PC maker, and they failed too. their profits plummeted.



    You have to look closer to home when you talk about margins of Nokia and Apple. Nokia USED to be much more profitable. Not any more.
  • Reply 71 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muppetry View Post


    So just to be clear on this - you are arguing that all smartphones should be the same price? If so, how far would you extend that principle? Should all cars be the same price? All TVs? I think I'm missing something in your reasoning.



    He's not reasoning. He's desperate to come up with an argument, and thats the only one he can think of. it's a false argument, as he knows very well, but it's the only one he's got, so he's going with it.



    His previous arguments over the years were that Nokia would continue to be number one, and the iPhone would never get to large numbers. He's lost that, so he's fighting a hasty retreat while he hopes Nokia will regroup. They won't, of course.
  • Reply 72 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    He's not reasoning. He's desperate to come up with an argument, and thats the only one he can think of. it's a false argument, as he knows very well, but it's the only one he's got, so he's going with it.



    His previous arguments over the years were that Nokia would continue to be number one, and the iPhone would never get to large numbers. He's lost that, so he's fighting a hasty retreat while he hopes Nokia will regroup. They won't, of course.



    Excuse me? What is your problem? You are the one going on about Nokia, no one mentioned them in this thread before you did.



    But as for your claim, as far I know Nokia is still the number one phone manufacturer. I don't own shares in any company so how much money they make doesn't interest me at all.



    And I'm not fighting any retreat, but as a non-Nokia phone owner, I still can't justify spending the amount of money Apple asks for an iPhone, NZ$1300 is still too much
  • Reply 73 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    No - not necessarily. If people don't buy the more expensive product then that company does not make more money.



    Who said anything about swapping for a cheaper one, I was talking about perception of prices from a consumer point of view, I said that in my original post, two view points, do I need to explain that again, or will you just ignore it because you don't want to accept anything I post?
  • Reply 74 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Just like every other phone. There's nothing new in that. And the iPhone wasn't released in Europe the same time it was here. That's another reason why it took off later, because it came out there later.



    The iPhone released in Europe was the original model, still running a 1.x OS, the same as the US, it didn't take off in Europe until the 3G model came out
  • Reply 75 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You have to look closer to home when you talk about margins of Nokia and Apple. Nokia USED to be much more profitable. Not any more.



    Who said anything about Nokia? I was talking about perception of prices from a consumer viewpoint, apart from Apple, I didn't mention a brand. You were the one that just came in with a predetermined agenda.
  • Reply 76 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You're not making any sense. The iPhone is an expensive phone, but no more so than the top of the line Nokia models, which haven't sold nearly as well.



    Again, who mentioned Nokia? Wasn't me.



    EDIT: Well, apart from the title of the thread that is, that'll learn me to post a thread again after a couple of days
  • Reply 77 of 101
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    oh course not, why would you even mention them as they are two very different devices, that would be like comparing a Ford Focus to a BMW M5. You would need to compare their similar models.



    So why would these consumers think they are being ripped off? If Apple sells only a high end phone while Nokia sells a mix of high end and low end phones, isn't it obvious that Apple'd make more money from the sales of their phones, especially when the number sold is close to what Nokia sold?



    This "viewpoint" that you bring forth is very myopic and it seems like it isn't the typical consumer, but the viewpoint of someone that is trying his best to make it look like Apple's ripping consumers off.
  • Reply 78 of 101
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thenewperson View Post


    So why would these consumers think they are being ripped off? If Apple sells only a high end phone while Nokia sells a mix of high end and low end phones, isn't it obvious that Apple'd make more money from the sales of their phones, especially when the number sold is close to what Nokia sold?



    I wasn't referring to a range of phones.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thenewperson View Post


    This "viewpoint" that you bring forth is very myopic and it seems like it isn't the typical consumer, but the viewpoint of someone that is trying his best to make it look like Apple's ripping consumers off.



    Is it? Why is it that consumers don't only purchase one item, by one manufacturer?



    There is no reason why a consumer should be concerned about how much money a manufacturer makes off an item unless they think they are being ripped off. Only some that benefits from this profit would be concern.



    I own a number of Apple devices (no iPhones or iPads though), and when I purchased them I didn't think, wow, Apple is going to make a tonne of money off of me, yay.
  • Reply 79 of 101
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    I own a number of Apple devices (no iPhones or iPads though), and when I purchased them I didn't think, wow, Apple is going to make a tonne of money off of me, yay.



    This thread is about the smartphone business not about consumer perceptions.



    "Apple crossed another major milestone in its second quarter of fiscal 2011, surpassing Nokia for the first time ever to become the world's largest phone vendor in terms of revenue."
  • Reply 80 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Excuse me? What is your problem? You are the one going on about Nokia, no one mentioned them in this thread before you did.



    But as for your claim, as far I know Nokia is still the number one phone manufacturer. I don't own shares in any company so how much money they make doesn't interest me at all.



    And I'm not fighting any retreat, but as a non-Nokia phone owner, I still can't justify spending the amount of money Apple asks for an iPhone, NZ$1300 is still too much



    You're discussing Nokia in this entire thread, and defending them, as usual.



    Nokia is shrinking quickly, it's beginning to shrink even more quickly now.



    There are import duties that countries charge. That's not Apple's fault. Higher taxes makes a difference as well, especially since much of it is hidden in many countries.
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