From what they say, it's not to know where their devices are being used, but to map the towers so that when you do need a location, it will be faster to find one. Same thing for the WiFi points. It also helps them let the carriers know where a tower might be needed. But the info itself isn't sent to the carrier.
This data can also be used to map WiFi hotspots to aid in location services for iOS devices with no GPS chip. Since last year I have notices that my iPod touch is much more accurate in determining the current location. It was not possible to locate where the device is because Skyhook didn't have WiFi information related to our town.
Now the press and blogs can turn their attention to Google and demand they explain exactly what they are doing with all the data they are collecting, and exactly what it is they are collecting. and from where. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
Why do so many Americans think they are doing something useful by rushing to court with a class action at the slightest little human error? Like the recent claim that members of the class of iPhone owners would not have bought if they had "known that Apple is tracking them". And asking for damages.
This was before there was even a response from Apple but after many people were already saying it was a bug that would get fixed. If they don't like their iPhone, stop using it! Maybe go and ask for a refund but how can they know how many other iPhone users "would not have bought their iPhone"? Have they done a survey?
How would these plaintiffs like it if they got sued for multiple damages for every tiny error they made in their best work/products? They deserve to be.
When will Americans grow up and start to take personal responsibitility and stop trying to get rich at the expense of the people who provide the most useful services in the world? This litigation society is sick.
It's a good press release. Simple, clear and very direct. I appreciate the language and format and believe this will help alleviate most of the controversy and angst.
Brilliant and top-notch from Apple. I am very pleased with their response.
Mbarriault, you read Engadget comments? And still well enough to post here? Commendable!!
I've warned before not to read the comments in Engadget articles. They have the worst name-calling, immature and angry posters on the web IMHO. No matter what the article was about, some Apple or Android (or rarely Windows) fan will jump in with something totally unrelated and the mud-slinging starts.
Makes some of the angry guys here sound pretty toothless. Save your sanity. Don't read the comments there.
Totally agree, I bailed on Engadget sometime ago, the whole place is sickening. It isnt a psychologically well place to read anything.
Anything of meaning will come up on AI and TUAW offers the rest on apps and other worthy news bites. Just stay clear of Engadget for the sake of your sanity and heart.
I wish I understood better why GPS needs a WiFi hotspot database to be speedy. GPS originally was for military applications right? Missile tracking and such. Surely such a system does not take, as Apple claims, "several minutes" to return a result?
Aren't those satellites constantly broadcasting - surely you just need to listen for a second or two? Or was the system built with the assumption that the thing you are locating is high and fast moving?
It is the initial acquiring of the signals that takes a minute or two. Once you have three satellites locked on it updates in realtime. In the case of the missile it is already locked on before launch.
Also the military version is much more accurate than the public is allowed to receive. To limit the accuracy of the public GPS, the satellites respond much less frequently to public devices than to military devices. There is a code in the GPS unit that limits the frequency of the updates.
It depends on how many satellites the receiver is designed to pick up. More expensive models can pick up three times as many as cheaper devices. The more that are picked up, the faster the device can locate.
That's not correct Mel. It takes four sat's locked to get an initial estimate of your position. What you might be thinking about is the old handheld 12 or 16 channel gps's back in the day. They've been obsolete for awhile now. Nearly all the newer standalone pnd's will have you located and on your way in seconds due to onboard computation of ephemeris data, or in other words where to look in the sky to find those satellites. TomTom devices would be the lone exception, requiring you to connect to their servers to download that data file. But that's only so they can harvest your travel stats at the same time and no other reason.
I don't know if Apple's Infineon gps chip offers "quickfix" or "Instantfix" autonomous sat location software, but I would think it would. What A-GPS does very well is give you a faster estimate of your location, filling in until the GPS has you pegged, or augmenting when signal may not be the best.
I saw dozens of commenters on Engadget being tinfoil-hat-y calling it a bunch of lies and a cover.
I literally facepalmed.
Well, it comes down to does anyone tell the truth about anything. Apple says it is a bug. If they are lying, well, too bad, they are going to fix it anyways and the fix will be scrutinised. So I'm covered either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ombra2105
I don't know really know how to say this, but I really don't give a crap about this location stuff. As far as I'm concerned Apple has taken the appropriate steps to warn users when their location and personal information is being used and the user has or has not consented to this, as the case maybe.
When I put my money down on my iPhone 3G, I expected to pay for smooth experience, which it has been. I connect to old networks seamlessly and have internet access as and when I need it. What more could I ask for?
Actually I like the tracking helping to resolve my location in many instances... Particularly in South East Asia where GPS and Skyhook, etc. coverage is not so tight.
The concerning stuff I pointed out is (A) it's unencrypted, (B) permanently cached (it should be cleared monthly at the longest), and (C) it doesn't turn off when you turn off location services.
Apple bought a mapping company called Pacebase two years ago. It wouldn't surprise me if they did replace Google maps on all iOS devices.
I would say hopefully that will be the case.
Because the bigger problem is what I posted here on the other thread about these 'location services' not being even your remotely biggest worry if your iDevice or MBP/sync device is ever accessed.
To summarize: almost every app's database, including usernames/password, and contacts, addresses, the works... is available to see by anybody with basically a text editor.
So perhaps there is an element of economics in the decision to have a hotspot database.
I can imagine, that the application "Find my iPhone" makes use of this database as well. And that is really a pretty useful App. It helped me already several times to see that my iPhone or iPad is save or just misplaced.
Now the press and blogs can turn their attention to Google and demand they explain exactly what they are doing with all the data they are collecting, and exactly what it is they are collecting. and from where. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
Geez 'mouse... we know the answer to that one already too: they're selling it, and using it to serve more ads. That's what they do as a business. It's not like they're developers or a software house or something... all their stuff is free to: Sell. More. Ads.
I wish I understood better why GPS needs a WiFi hotspot database to be speedy. GPS originally was for military applications right? Missile tracking and such. Surely such a system does not take, as Apple claims, "several minutes" to return a result?
Aren't those satellites constantly broadcasting - surely you just need to listen for a second or two? Or was the system built with the assumption that the thing you are locating is high and fast moving?
GPS units take time to go through and look for which of the 24 satellites orbiting earth are visible. When a GPS unit cold start it take several minutes to determine which ones are visible since the device have no idea about the general location. This is where AGPS saves time (using cell towers or/and WiFi hotspots). Once the device knows roughly where it is (for example which city, country, or general area) it will know what satellites to look for and then all it need to do is fine tune the location and don't need the WiFi or cell tower info anymore. However, on iOS 4+ WiFi and cell tower triangulation is used for background navigation to save power.
Too bad. I got a kick out of seeing where I had been, and like photos, and a journal, helped me remember things I had forgotten.
Sounds like a great app we could install that would maintain a history for us.
Yeah, it was fun, huh? I travelled quite a bit within my country this past few years (about 400 km north, east, etc.) so it brought back memories of my holidays... It's a great idea for an "places, memories" kind of app.
Also reminded me of good times with my DJ friends and going to their gigs, this was before the fame went to their heads, sadly.
But, this location stuff has to be done the right way with the right opt-in with the right encryption by default.
This app should be possible right now, for example Runkeeper tracks your location in the background, so there are apps that just run in the background and keep track of your location. Of course, they have to use CoreLocation(?) so I wonder whether that info is as detailed as what we see in consolidated.db
I personally think that within iTunes, the "Encrypted backup" checkbox should be checked as the default, and that you have to uncheck it (for who knows what reason) to back up otherwise.
iDevices are in the hands of too many "noobs" and normal customers not to do it this way any longer. Secure out of the box until the noobs go deeper... or even want to.
There's no conspiracy theory, it's just obvious that Google is lying because their "inadvertent" excuse isn't credible when you consider they had to be seeing all the private data they collected go into their database for years.
There is absolutely no similarity between these issues.
It may be relevant to note that Google were fined Eu 100,000 for collecting data on wifi hotspots in France as they swept the county gathering their admirable Streetview data.
Has anyone info on whether they also collected cellphone tower location data during this exercise?
Geez 'mouse... we know the answer to that one already too: they're selling it, and using it to serve more ads. That's what they do as a business. It's not like they're developers or a software house or something... all their stuff is free to: Sell. More. Ads.
And ads of the very lowest common denominator, at that. Don Draper would be rolling over in his grave knowing that this is one of the biggest advertising companies of all time and this is what "advertising" has sunk to.
Comments
From what they say, it's not to know where their devices are being used, but to map the towers so that when you do need a location, it will be faster to find one. Same thing for the WiFi points. It also helps them let the carriers know where a tower might be needed. But the info itself isn't sent to the carrier.
This data can also be used to map WiFi hotspots to aid in location services for iOS devices with no GPS chip. Since last year I have notices that my iPod touch is much more accurate in determining the current location. It was not possible to locate where the device is because Skyhook didn't have WiFi information related to our town.
Unfortunate it takes a lawsuit or two and an investigation by the FCC to get Apple to do this.
Unfortunately it took me some time to respond to your statement. Please give us a break!
This was before there was even a response from Apple but after many people were already saying it was a bug that would get fixed. If they don't like their iPhone, stop using it! Maybe go and ask for a refund but how can they know how many other iPhone users "would not have bought their iPhone"? Have they done a survey?
How would these plaintiffs like it if they got sued for multiple damages for every tiny error they made in their best work/products? They deserve to be.
When will Americans grow up and start to take personal responsibitility and stop trying to get rich at the expense of the people who provide the most useful services in the world? This litigation society is sick.
It's a good press release. Simple, clear and very direct. I appreciate the language and format and believe this will help alleviate most of the controversy and angst.
Brilliant and top-notch from Apple. I am very pleased with their response.
http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker/
Mbarriault, you read Engadget comments? And still well enough to post here? Commendable!!
I've warned before not to read the comments in Engadget articles. They have the worst name-calling, immature and angry posters on the web IMHO. No matter what the article was about, some Apple or Android (or rarely Windows) fan will jump in with something totally unrelated and the mud-slinging starts.
Makes some of the angry guys here sound pretty toothless. Save your sanity. Don't read the comments there.
Totally agree, I bailed on Engadget sometime ago, the whole place is sickening. It isnt a psychologically well place to read anything.
Anything of meaning will come up on AI and TUAW offers the rest on apps and other worthy news bites. Just stay clear of Engadget for the sake of your sanity and heart.
I wish I understood better why GPS needs a WiFi hotspot database to be speedy. GPS originally was for military applications right? Missile tracking and such. Surely such a system does not take, as Apple claims, "several minutes" to return a result?
Aren't those satellites constantly broadcasting - surely you just need to listen for a second or two? Or was the system built with the assumption that the thing you are locating is high and fast moving?
It is the initial acquiring of the signals that takes a minute or two. Once you have three satellites locked on it updates in realtime. In the case of the missile it is already locked on before launch.
Also the military version is much more accurate than the public is allowed to receive. To limit the accuracy of the public GPS, the satellites respond much less frequently to public devices than to military devices. There is a code in the GPS unit that limits the frequency of the updates.
Now that we are told the phone keeps the information for over a year, they are going to turn it off?
Too bad. I got a kick out of seeing where I had been, and like photos, and a journal, helped me remember things I had forgotten.
Sounds like a great app we could install that would maintain a history for us.
That would actually be pretty cool. I keep all my old bank statements and sometimes use them for that purpose.
It depends on how many satellites the receiver is designed to pick up. More expensive models can pick up three times as many as cheaper devices. The more that are picked up, the faster the device can locate.
That's not correct Mel. It takes four sat's locked to get an initial estimate of your position. What you might be thinking about is the old handheld 12 or 16 channel gps's back in the day. They've been obsolete for awhile now. Nearly all the newer standalone pnd's will have you located and on your way in seconds due to onboard computation of ephemeris data, or in other words where to look in the sky to find those satellites. TomTom devices would be the lone exception, requiring you to connect to their servers to download that data file. But that's only so they can harvest your travel stats at the same time and no other reason.
I don't know if Apple's Infineon gps chip offers "quickfix" or "Instantfix" autonomous sat location software, but I would think it would. What A-GPS does very well is give you a faster estimate of your location, filling in until the GPS has you pegged, or augmenting when signal may not be the best.
I saw dozens of commenters on Engadget being tinfoil-hat-y calling it a bunch of lies and a cover.
I literally facepalmed.
Well, it comes down to does anyone tell the truth about anything. Apple says it is a bug. If they are lying, well, too bad, they are going to fix it anyways and the fix will be scrutinised. So I'm covered either way.
I don't know really know how to say this, but I really don't give a crap about this location stuff. As far as I'm concerned Apple has taken the appropriate steps to warn users when their location and personal information is being used and the user has or has not consented to this, as the case maybe.
When I put my money down on my iPhone 3G, I expected to pay for smooth experience, which it has been. I connect to old networks seamlessly and have internet access as and when I need it. What more could I ask for?
Actually I like the tracking helping to resolve my location in many instances... Particularly in South East Asia where GPS and Skyhook, etc. coverage is not so tight.
Also, using http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker/ it's pretty cool seeing where I've been.
The concerning stuff I pointed out is (A) it's unencrypted, (B) permanently cached (it should be cleared monthly at the longest), and (C) it doesn't turn off when you turn off location services.
Good response. It can't get clearer than this.
What I find interesting is this as well:
Probably a system wide encryption in iOS 5.
Apple bought a mapping company called Pacebase two years ago. It wouldn't surprise me if they did replace Google maps on all iOS devices.
I would say hopefully that will be the case.
Because the bigger problem is what I posted here on the other thread about these 'location services' not being even your remotely biggest worry if your iDevice or MBP/sync device is ever accessed.
To summarize: almost every app's database, including usernames/password, and contacts, addresses, the works... is available to see by anybody with basically a text editor.
So perhaps there is an element of economics in the decision to have a hotspot database.
I can imagine, that the application "Find my iPhone" makes use of this database as well. And that is really a pretty useful App. It helped me already several times to see that my iPhone or iPad is save or just misplaced.
Now the press and blogs can turn their attention to Google and demand they explain exactly what they are doing with all the data they are collecting, and exactly what it is they are collecting. and from where. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.
Geez 'mouse... we know the answer to that one already too: they're selling it, and using it to serve more ads. That's what they do as a business. It's not like they're developers or a software house or something... all their stuff is free to: Sell. More. Ads.
I wish I understood better why GPS needs a WiFi hotspot database to be speedy. GPS originally was for military applications right? Missile tracking and such. Surely such a system does not take, as Apple claims, "several minutes" to return a result?
Aren't those satellites constantly broadcasting - surely you just need to listen for a second or two? Or was the system built with the assumption that the thing you are locating is high and fast moving?
GPS units take time to go through and look for which of the 24 satellites orbiting earth are visible. When a GPS unit cold start it take several minutes to determine which ones are visible since the device have no idea about the general location. This is where AGPS saves time (using cell towers or/and WiFi hotspots). Once the device knows roughly where it is (for example which city, country, or general area) it will know what satellites to look for and then all it need to do is fine tune the location and don't need the WiFi or cell tower info anymore. However, on iOS 4+ WiFi and cell tower triangulation is used for background navigation to save power.
More information here.
Too bad. I got a kick out of seeing where I had been, and like photos, and a journal, helped me remember things I had forgotten.
Sounds like a great app we could install that would maintain a history for us.
Yeah, it was fun, huh? I travelled quite a bit within my country this past few years (about 400 km north, east, etc.) so it brought back memories of my holidays... It's a great idea for an "places, memories" kind of app.
Also reminded me of good times with my DJ friends and going to their gigs, this was before the fame went to their heads, sadly.
But, this location stuff has to be done the right way with the right opt-in with the right encryption by default.
This app should be possible right now, for example Runkeeper tracks your location in the background, so there are apps that just run in the background and keep track of your location. Of course, they have to use CoreLocation(?) so I wonder whether that info is as detailed as what we see in consolidated.db
iDevices are in the hands of too many "noobs" and normal customers not to do it this way any longer. Secure out of the box until the noobs go deeper... or even want to.
There's no conspiracy theory, it's just obvious that Google is lying because their "inadvertent" excuse isn't credible when you consider they had to be seeing all the private data they collected go into their database for years.
There is absolutely no similarity between these issues.
It may be relevant to note that Google were fined Eu 100,000 for collecting data on wifi hotspots in France as they swept the county gathering their admirable Streetview data.
Has anyone info on whether they also collected cellphone tower location data during this exercise?
You're tracking me wrong.
Geez 'mouse... we know the answer to that one already too: they're selling it, and using it to serve more ads. That's what they do as a business. It's not like they're developers or a software house or something... all their stuff is free to: Sell. More. Ads.
And ads of the very lowest common denominator, at that. Don Draper would be rolling over in his grave knowing that this is one of the biggest advertising companies of all time and this is what "advertising" has sunk to.