Just because you *think* there is some sort of conspiracy preventing you from from getting a raise - does not make it so.
Lots of companies have clauses regarding non-compete or that if I send my tech professionals into your business to do a job that you will not attempt to hire them (generally with some expiration period such as a year). which, as already pointed out, doesn't mean that it cannot or does not happen but rather we two companies have agreed not to engage in a deliberate efforts which could be disruptive to the other as a matter of policy. I would think that finding evidence of intent to commit illegal acts that would be admissible in court would be difficult.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind. \
Did he "recruit them" .... or did they beg SJ .... 'Please ... take me with you .... Apple is doomed' .... or words to that effect ... I wasn't there so I don't know ... were you????
Well, Apple was still very profitable at that point.
My best guess is that Steve offered them a combination of "you'll get to work on inventing the future of computing" and stock options. I'd imagine working at NeXT would have been a heck of a lot more technically interesting than working at Apple in the 1990s. They essentially invented Mac OS X ten years before it's time while Apple was busy making profits off of maintenance releases (ok, to be fair, there were a couple of interesting products that came out, but nothing as revolutionary as the original MacIntosh or Mac OS X).
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind. \
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/
/
With similar experience, pilots of passenger airplanes make about he same as IT professionals. Some regional carriers underpay new first officers, but a lot of companies pay inexperienced it workers poorly as well.
Keep in mind that pilots of passenger aircraft do not actually work that much, particularly when compared to the hours worked by low-level it workers.
IT is not necessarily high-tech, but he pay sales are close enoug.
It would be difficult to prove an anti-competitive cartel/oligopoly as, despite being the major players, the collective software engineering staff of these companies does not constitute the majority or even significant market share. Collectively they still only represent a small percentage of the US software engineering base. This provides more than enough choice for the individual to vote with their feet especially if they are free to approach the other parties themselves.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
How about college professors, research scientists, properly trained musicians? I am making about one half of what I was as a computer professional, having chosen to teach college level. Love teaching? won't trade it, but tired of hearing the "we don't make enough" whining. And you can compare education levels with a reply in four human languages besides English. (No, Pig Latin doesn't count.)
While I see their point, there is merit to companies agreeing to not head-hunt deliberately from each other. This suit seems to lack substance, however, as a company would be free to publicly post for a position with whatever salary it took to attract qualified applicants, meaning the idea of a salary cap doesn't apply. They just won't fax to other companies, advertising the jobs. Now if they agreed to not hire each other's employees...
Most Fortune 500 companies regularly review their compensation packages and make adjustments to keep their pay in line with their industry's averages. You could almost call it an (indirect) conspiracy.
Did he "recruit them" .... or did they beg SJ .... 'Please ... take me with you .... Apple is doomed' .... or words to that effect ... I wasn't there so I don't know ... were you????
He recruited them; Apple sued Steve and NeXT, then backed off when they realized all they were doing was giving NeXT free publicity. Oh that John Sculley!
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind. \
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/
/
I wouldn't hire a bus driver to be a pilot PERIOD.
Just googled this guy, to the original PR of this case. Doesn't sound like this guy needs a job anymore, he is a CEO of a software gaming company called inEarth (inEarth.com)... So maybe this "paki" will be fine.
"The lawsuit was filed by a former software engineer at Lucasfilm, Siddharth Hariharan. He is also the founder and Chief Executive Officer of InEarth."
I think it is perfect timing, because if this guy was still relying on finding a job, he probably wouldn't be fighting for all those employees..
While I see their point, there is merit to companies agreeing to not head-hunt deliberately from each other. This suit seems to lack substance, however, as a company would be free to publicly post for a position with whatever salary it took to attract qualified applicants, meaning the idea of a salary cap doesn't apply. They just won't fax to other companies, advertising the jobs. Now if they agreed to not hire each other's employees...
You think it is ok for those companies to cooperate with each other and be forced to not only share employee salaries, but also not be able to offer a prospect employee a higher salary? Basically ending competition over the employee? And you think this is ok?
Do you not see how this forces the employee to either work at the large firm for the low pay or basically move out of their sector altogether? Do you realize smaller companies can't really afford to pay what big companies can anyway, so this type of collusion basically suppresses the employee's compensation and you think this is ok?
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind. \
/
/
/
I guess you don' know how little the regional pilots make. And the job description isn't anywhere near the same, you can drive a bus for a living after a free after-you-are-hired two week training course. It takes over $30K in paid-by-the-pilot civilian training and flight time and another two to three years of hustling as a flight instructor to get enough flight time for an application to even be accepted. Then 60% of those pilots cannot pass the Airline Transport Pilot check and are let go as high time dead-end copilots.
Flying even a regional is a hairy dangerous undertaking made safe by the pilots training. 155 miles an hour hurling at the ground at about 300 feet per minute when there is only about 45 seconds of crappy visibility between popping out of the clouds and hitting the runway. Miss touchdown alignment by as little as two degrees and rip off your tires, and crash onto the belly.
Miss a turn with a bus by 10 degrees and you probably don't hit anything. Almost every American trains at driving from 15 years old in high school and will never see 100 MPH, let alone 155 on the ground at the controls.
Yeah, I suggest you tell your next regional pilot they are overpaid because they only make about 10K per year more than a starting city bus driver, and less than a high seniority bus driver.
No, I'm not an airline pilot of any sort, never was, didn't want to be and I even can't be due to a medical condition. But I know the business.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
The point ISN'T about pay... In fact I read somewhere that this guy filing the lawsuit is donating any judgement he receives to charity.. 100% of it... It is about big companies cooperating to suppress the employee's pay and career advancement...
Here is an analogy:
You have your house placed on auction: The base auction price of your house is set at $250k, you are looking for a fair price, you're not sure what it is, but you know it is much higher than the minimum.
There are multiple houses up for auction so the people bidding all collude to not outbid each other... so EVERYONE GETS THEIR HOUSES AT THE MINIMUM PRICE!!!
That is the point! So basically your house in this example went at the minimum price of $250k... IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING with your career advancement and salary...
This has absolutely nothing to do with how much these engineers are being paid. Let it be $10/hour, let it be $1000/hour... it doesn't matter... if $10 is fair, then so be it as long as it is reached as part of fair market with no collusion.
The point ISN'T about pay... In fact I read somewhere that this guy filing the lawsuit is donating any judgement he receives to charity.. 100% of it... It is about big companies cooperating to suppress the employee's pay and career advancement...
Here is an analogy:
You have your house placed on auction: The base auction price of your house is set at $250k, you are looking for a fair price, you're not sure what it is, but you know it is much higher than the minimum.
There are multiple houses up for auction so the people bidding all collude to not outbid each other... so EVERYONE GETS THEIR HOUSES AT THE MINIMUM PRICE!!!
That is the point! So basically your house in this example went at the minimum price of $250k... IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING with your career advancement and salary...
This has absolutely nothing to do with how much these engineers are being paid. Let it be $10/hour, let it be $1000/hour... it doesn't matter... if $10 is fair, then so be it as long as it is reached as part of fair market with no collusion.
Except that's not what is being alleged. The allegations are that these companies have an agreement not to poach employees from the other - that is, the company will not go after employees. The employees are free to seek jobs at the other companies - and that has happened a lot.
Not only are the compsci salaries far above what other comparable employees receive (see above), but computer science employees tend to change jobs much more frequently than most employees - so the alleged misbehavior apparently isn't working.
Except that's not what is being alleged. The allegations are that these companies have an agreement not to poach employees from the other - that is, the company will not go after employees. The employees are free to seek jobs at the other companies - and that has happened a lot.
Sorry to disagree with you, but have you read the lawsuit? the DOJ findings?... This isn't about just anti-poaching...
These companies discussed what the salaries were and WERE NOT allowed to outbid each other.. example:
You're working at google and you decide to apply at Apple... If you applied there, Apple would have to contact Google and tell them that you are applying there and they've decided to hire you. Google would then tell them "jragosta is making $80k/year here"... Apple would have to offer you $80k and can NOT offer you more than that due to their arrangement.
I'm sorry but you need to do more research if you're going to make comments like this... please read the official lawsuit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Not only are the compsci salaries far above what other comparable employees receive (see above), but computer science employees tend to change jobs much more frequently than most employees - so the alleged misbehavior apparently isn't working.
Do you realize that a lot of the positions at LucasFilm, Google, Apple that were affected by this weren't for people with compsci backgrounds?... Well obviously you didn't realize this.. but a lot of the people affected by this were Artists and non-engineers... They're far more vulnerable as well and they're already underpaid as it is... Overall, this was a shitty thing for those companies to get together and do... And actually it says it in the lawsuit documents too that majority of the positions affected were artists, designers (creative people).. sorry, no offense to engineers, but they're not considered Creative...
How many engineers vs artists work at Pixar?... that's right.. This guy fighting for us just happens to be an engineer, but doesn't mean he's just got a soft spot for engineers.
Sorry to disagree with you, but have you read the lawsuit? the DOJ findings?... This isn't about just anti-poaching...
These companies discussed what the salaries were and WERE NOT allowed to outbid each other.. example:
You're working at google and you decide to apply at Apple... If you applied there, Apple would have to contact Google and tell them that you are applying there and they've decided to hire you. Google would then tell them "jragosta is making $80k/year here"... Apple would have to offer you $80k and can NOT offer you more than that due to their arrangement.
I'm sorry but you need to do more research if you're going to make comments like this... please read the official lawsuit...
Sorry, but I don't believe in 'guilty until proven innocent'. Unless you expect me to believe that every claim ever made in a lawsuit is true, then those claims are meaningless.
The fact is that the salaries in the computer industry are far higher than people with similar skills in other industries. That suggests strongly that the salaries are not being artificially restrained.
Sorry, but I don't believe in 'guilty until proven innocent'. Unless you expect me to believe that every claim ever made in a lawsuit is true, then those claims are meaningless.
The fact is that the salaries in the computer industry are far higher than people with similar skills in other industries. That suggests strongly that the salaries are not being artificially restrained.
Your point is what again?... The DOJ already slapped these guys for what they did. Plus you are going on and on about the salaries being inflated when clearly majority of the people affected by this were artists and non-engineers who make like 40k - 50k/year... Not to mention the fact that the issue is salary fixing and collusion, and has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
Comments
Lots of companies have clauses regarding non-compete or that if I send my tech professionals into your business to do a job that you will not attempt to hire them (generally with some expiration period such as a year). which, as already pointed out, doesn't mean that it cannot or does not happen but rather we two companies have agreed not to engage in a deliberate efforts which could be disruptive to the other as a matter of policy. I would think that finding evidence of intent to commit illegal acts that would be admissible in court would be difficult.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind.
/
/
/
Did he "recruit them" .... or did they beg SJ .... 'Please ... take me with you .... Apple is doomed' .... or words to that effect ... I wasn't there so I don't know ... were you????
Well, Apple was still very profitable at that point.
My best guess is that Steve offered them a combination of "you'll get to work on inventing the future of computing" and stock options. I'd imagine working at NeXT would have been a heck of a lot more technically interesting than working at Apple in the 1990s. They essentially invented Mac OS X ten years before it's time while Apple was busy making profits off of maintenance releases (ok, to be fair, there were a couple of interesting products that came out, but nothing as revolutionary as the original MacIntosh or Mac OS X).
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind.
/
/
/
With similar experience, pilots of passenger airplanes make about he same as IT professionals. Some regional carriers underpay new first officers, but a lot of companies pay inexperienced it workers poorly as well.
Keep in mind that pilots of passenger aircraft do not actually work that much, particularly when compared to the hours worked by low-level it workers.
IT is not necessarily high-tech, but he pay sales are close enoug.
I hope this guy has a good pension fund already.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
How about college professors, research scientists, properly trained musicians? I am making about one half of what I was as a computer professional, having chosen to teach college level. Love teaching? won't trade it, but tired of hearing the "we don't make enough" whining. And you can compare education levels with a reply in four human languages besides English. (No, Pig Latin doesn't count.)
While I see their point, there is merit to companies agreeing to not head-hunt deliberately from each other. This suit seems to lack substance, however, as a company would be free to publicly post for a position with whatever salary it took to attract qualified applicants, meaning the idea of a salary cap doesn't apply. They just won't fax to other companies, advertising the jobs. Now if they agreed to not hire each other's employees...
While I see their point, there is merit to companies agreeing to not head-hunt deliberately from each other.
The point is not whether there's 'merit', the point is whether it's illegal. There's tons of illegal activities in the society with 'merits'.
Did he "recruit them" .... or did they beg SJ .... 'Please ... take me with you .... Apple is doomed' .... or words to that effect ... I wasn't there so I don't know ... were you????
He recruited them; Apple sued Steve and NeXT, then backed off when they realized all they were doing was giving NeXT free publicity. Oh that John Sculley!
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind.
/
/
/
I wouldn't hire a bus driver to be a pilot PERIOD.
"The lawsuit was filed by a former software engineer at Lucasfilm, Siddharth Hariharan. He is also the founder and Chief Executive Officer of InEarth."
I think it is perfect timing, because if this guy was still relying on finding a job, he probably wouldn't be fighting for all those employees..
While I see their point, there is merit to companies agreeing to not head-hunt deliberately from each other. This suit seems to lack substance, however, as a company would be free to publicly post for a position with whatever salary it took to attract qualified applicants, meaning the idea of a salary cap doesn't apply. They just won't fax to other companies, advertising the jobs. Now if they agreed to not hire each other's employees...
You think it is ok for those companies to cooperate with each other and be forced to not only share employee salaries, but also not be able to offer a prospect employee a higher salary? Basically ending competition over the employee? And you think this is ok?
Do you not see how this forces the employee to either work at the large firm for the low pay or basically move out of their sector altogether? Do you realize smaller companies can't really afford to pay what big companies can anyway, so this type of collusion basically suppresses the employee's compensation and you think this is ok?
ATP licensed regional carrier airline pilots with a few years under their belt versus CDL licensed public transit workers (bus drivers) with a few years under their belt comes to mind.
/
/
/
I guess you don' know how little the regional pilots make. And the job description isn't anywhere near the same, you can drive a bus for a living after a free after-you-are-hired two week training course. It takes over $30K in paid-by-the-pilot civilian training and flight time and another two to three years of hustling as a flight instructor to get enough flight time for an application to even be accepted. Then 60% of those pilots cannot pass the Airline Transport Pilot check and are let go as high time dead-end copilots.
Flying even a regional is a hairy dangerous undertaking made safe by the pilots training. 155 miles an hour hurling at the ground at about 300 feet per minute when there is only about 45 seconds of crappy visibility between popping out of the clouds and hitting the runway. Miss touchdown alignment by as little as two degrees and rip off your tires, and crash onto the belly.
Miss a turn with a bus by 10 degrees and you probably don't hit anything. Almost every American trains at driving from 15 years old in high school and will never see 100 MPH, let alone 155 on the ground at the controls.
Yeah, I suggest you tell your next regional pilot they are overpaid because they only make about 10K per year more than a starting city bus driver, and less than a high seniority bus driver.
No, I'm not an airline pilot of any sort, never was, didn't want to be and I even can't be due to a medical condition. But I know the business.
As a computer professional, I'd like to hear you name some other occupations that require a similar level of training and skill that aren't as well paid please.
Sure:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#15-0000
(All numbers are median hourly wage)
Computer and Mathematical Science: $35.05
Architecture and Engineering: $33.07
Life and Physical Science: $28.03
Education, Training, and Library: $21.04
All of those are careers that typically require a 4 year education (although most Engineering is now 5 years).
Here is an analogy:
You have your house placed on auction: The base auction price of your house is set at $250k, you are looking for a fair price, you're not sure what it is, but you know it is much higher than the minimum.
There are multiple houses up for auction so the people bidding all collude to not outbid each other... so EVERYONE GETS THEIR HOUSES AT THE MINIMUM PRICE!!!
That is the point! So basically your house in this example went at the minimum price of $250k... IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING with your career advancement and salary...
This has absolutely nothing to do with how much these engineers are being paid. Let it be $10/hour, let it be $1000/hour... it doesn't matter... if $10 is fair, then so be it as long as it is reached as part of fair market with no collusion.
The point ISN'T about pay... In fact I read somewhere that this guy filing the lawsuit is donating any judgement he receives to charity.. 100% of it... It is about big companies cooperating to suppress the employee's pay and career advancement...
Here is an analogy:
You have your house placed on auction: The base auction price of your house is set at $250k, you are looking for a fair price, you're not sure what it is, but you know it is much higher than the minimum.
There are multiple houses up for auction so the people bidding all collude to not outbid each other... so EVERYONE GETS THEIR HOUSES AT THE MINIMUM PRICE!!!
That is the point! So basically your house in this example went at the minimum price of $250k... IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING with your career advancement and salary...
This has absolutely nothing to do with how much these engineers are being paid. Let it be $10/hour, let it be $1000/hour... it doesn't matter... if $10 is fair, then so be it as long as it is reached as part of fair market with no collusion.
Except that's not what is being alleged. The allegations are that these companies have an agreement not to poach employees from the other - that is, the company will not go after employees. The employees are free to seek jobs at the other companies - and that has happened a lot.
Not only are the compsci salaries far above what other comparable employees receive (see above), but computer science employees tend to change jobs much more frequently than most employees - so the alleged misbehavior apparently isn't working.
Except that's not what is being alleged. The allegations are that these companies have an agreement not to poach employees from the other - that is, the company will not go after employees. The employees are free to seek jobs at the other companies - and that has happened a lot.
Sorry to disagree with you, but have you read the lawsuit? the DOJ findings?... This isn't about just anti-poaching...
These companies discussed what the salaries were and WERE NOT allowed to outbid each other.. example:
You're working at google and you decide to apply at Apple... If you applied there, Apple would have to contact Google and tell them that you are applying there and they've decided to hire you. Google would then tell them "jragosta is making $80k/year here"... Apple would have to offer you $80k and can NOT offer you more than that due to their arrangement.
I'm sorry but you need to do more research if you're going to make comments like this... please read the official lawsuit...
Not only are the compsci salaries far above what other comparable employees receive (see above), but computer science employees tend to change jobs much more frequently than most employees - so the alleged misbehavior apparently isn't working.
Do you realize that a lot of the positions at LucasFilm, Google, Apple that were affected by this weren't for people with compsci backgrounds?... Well obviously you didn't realize this.. but a lot of the people affected by this were Artists and non-engineers... They're far more vulnerable as well and they're already underpaid as it is... Overall, this was a shitty thing for those companies to get together and do... And actually it says it in the lawsuit documents too that majority of the positions affected were artists, designers (creative people).. sorry, no offense to engineers, but they're not considered Creative...
How many engineers vs artists work at Pixar?... that's right.. This guy fighting for us just happens to be an engineer, but doesn't mean he's just got a soft spot for engineers.
Sorry to disagree with you, but have you read the lawsuit? the DOJ findings?... This isn't about just anti-poaching...
These companies discussed what the salaries were and WERE NOT allowed to outbid each other.. example:
You're working at google and you decide to apply at Apple... If you applied there, Apple would have to contact Google and tell them that you are applying there and they've decided to hire you. Google would then tell them "jragosta is making $80k/year here"... Apple would have to offer you $80k and can NOT offer you more than that due to their arrangement.
I'm sorry but you need to do more research if you're going to make comments like this... please read the official lawsuit...
Sorry, but I don't believe in 'guilty until proven innocent'. Unless you expect me to believe that every claim ever made in a lawsuit is true, then those claims are meaningless.
The fact is that the salaries in the computer industry are far higher than people with similar skills in other industries. That suggests strongly that the salaries are not being artificially restrained.
Sorry, but I don't believe in 'guilty until proven innocent'. Unless you expect me to believe that every claim ever made in a lawsuit is true, then those claims are meaningless.
The fact is that the salaries in the computer industry are far higher than people with similar skills in other industries. That suggests strongly that the salaries are not being artificially restrained.
Your point is what again?... The DOJ already slapped these guys for what they did. Plus you are going on and on about the salaries being inflated when clearly majority of the people affected by this were artists and non-engineers who make like 40k - 50k/year... Not to mention the fact that the issue is salary fixing and collusion, and has nothing to do with what you're talking about.