DoJ probe could cost Google $500M; Apple receives patent for horizontal docking iPad

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 60
    Shh...you insane? This is AppleInsider! Steve Jobs is God and Apple is the kingdom of heaven. They do no wrong. It's the laws that are illegal and should therefore be changed. God forbid punishing Apple!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Since the DoJ also has active Apple investigations in progress, how many years revenue should Apple lose if found in violation of US laws? There's claims that Amazon (and Google?) met resistance on securing record label deals due to heavy and illegal pressure from Apple.



    http://www.tuaw.com/2010/06/03/doj-expands-apple-probe/



    http://www.mobiledia.com/news/71868.html



  • Reply 22 of 60
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,716member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moshe View Post


    Maybe I'm missing something, but why not just design a dock shaped like a sideways "L" with the connector on the vertical member?



    Seriously? First off - just instinctively, that is one bad idea. Giving another 15 seconds thought it becomes apparent that you really have no idea of what drives apple's design ethos if you think they would ever produce an L-shaped iPad stand. Think about the practicality of such a stand - how would it work? Would you have one stand for vertical and one for horizontal? Or would you have two male connectors exposed at all times? If so, would one automatically retract? And how easy would it be to connect your device in the horizontal position? The stand would have to be super heavy and very rigid, and even then I suspect you'd need two hands to place your iPad in the stand. I would think about it for another 15 seconds if it seemed worthwhile but I just don't have the time. \
  • Reply 23 of 60
    imoanimoan Posts: 56member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by peppermonkey View Post


    Shh...you insane? This is AppleInsider! Steve Jobs is God and Apple is the kingdom of heaven. They do no wrong. It's the laws that are illegal and should therefore be changed. God forbid punishing Apple!



    So true.
  • Reply 24 of 60
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlanH View Post


    "Horizontal docking" is a little misleading. Sounds like the iPad is docked while lying down flat in its back. A better description would be landscape docking as opposed to the present portrait.



    Agreed. I thought the same thing.
  • Reply 25 of 60
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As for Google's fine. These companies are all so rich these days, that the fines are just tempory set-backs. If a company wants to do something, they won't allow a fine to prevent them from doing it.



    We still don't know what the infraction was. Technology is moving so quickly, laws have to be reinterpreted in many cases to make them retroactively relevant. Rather than argue a vague point the parties settle instead. The size of the settlement is relative to their ability to pay. Basically a slap on the wrists. "Use of Google ads by certain advertisers". Give me a break. What the hell does that mean?



    The bigger question in my mind is why there are so many stupid people who actually click on ads? Google sends me a nice check every month just because people are so stupid as to click on my ads.



    Will the billions of ad clickers ever wise up? Maybe that is Apple's iAd strategy. Ads for smart people. No wonder it is failing. There just aren't enough smart people or they don't download ad supported apps, duh... because they are smart.
  • Reply 26 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Or, make it a criminal rather than a civil offense and put the CEOs in jail.



    That's not likely to happen, so, yes, the only way to stop this sort of illegal behavior is to make the fines so large that it would put a company out of business to pay them. This is also the problem with so called "tort reform". If for example, you cap damage awards, causing injury becomes just another calculated business expense. If you can save $1 Million dollars by making an unsafe product, and you calculate, based on the expected injury rate and award caps that it will cost you $750K in expenses, you can still count on pocketing an extra $250K, and maybe that only amounts to one extra death per thousand sold, so it's easy on their consciences too.



    To get unethical companies, like Google and Microsoft, to behave, the cost of breaking the law has to be staggering, or at least potentially and unpredictably so, something on the order of 1-5 years total revenues so that it can potentially bankrupt them.



    As they're not breaking criminal laws, they can't be taken to account tht way. now, if they were breaking laws of a criminal nature, that would be different.



    But, it seems to me that all of these fines should be of the type of triple damages. Otherwise, it's just the cost of doing business.
  • Reply 27 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xsu View Post


    It really should have been about particular implementation of an idea. Not just the concept itself, which the process have devolved into.



    In the old days, patents are granted on real product, not concept drawings. Return to that old standard would solve a lot of problems exist in patents these days.



    It hasn't degenerated into that. It's that the patent office is so overworked, that they don't do the detail work they often need to do. Whenever it's proposed to significantly up the budget in order to hire more examiners, certain people in Congress veto it. So they get further behind.
  • Reply 28 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Mel and/or Anonymouse, what is the "thing" that Google did that they need to be prevented from doing again with this rumored 500K fine? I' haven't seen any clear indication that Google themselves did anything.



    There are a number of articles about it.



    http://www.thestreet.com/story/11115...ed&cm_ite=Feed
  • Reply 28 of 60
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As they're not breaking criminal laws, they can't be taken to account tht way. now, if they were breaking laws of a criminal nature, that would be different.



    Most advertising is a form of fraud, defined as misrepresentation, deception for financial gain, so that could be considered criminal, and civil depending on the jurisdiction. But it is shades of gray [grey]. Being evil is not against the law, only getting caught is.
  • Reply 30 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Since the DoJ also has active Apple investigations in progress, how many years revenue should Apple lose if found in violation of US laws? There's claims that Amazon (and Google?) met resistance on securing record label deals due to heavy and illegal pressure from Apple on the record companies that already had deals in place on iTunes.



    http://www.tuaw.com/2010/06/03/doj-expands-apple-probe/



    http://www.mobiledia.com/news/71868.html



    EDIT: I suspect the lack of comments on this will be all that needs to be said



    It doesn't matter what company it is. If Apple is found flouting the laws, then they should be subject to massive fines as well. No favoritism there.
  • Reply 31 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    We still don't know what the infraction was. Technology is moving so quickly, laws have to be reinterpreted in many cases to make them retroactively relevant. Rather than argue a vague point the parties settle instead. The size of the settlement is relative to their ability to pay. Basically a slap on the wrists. "Use of Google ads by certain advertisers". Give me a break. What the hell does that mean?



    The bigger question in my mind is why there are so many stupid people who actually click on ads? Google sends me a nice check every month just because people are so stupid as to click on my ads.



    Will the billions of ad clickers ever wise up? Maybe that is Apple's iAd strategy. Ads for smart people. No wonder it is failing. There just aren't enough smart people or they don't download ad supported apps, duh... because they are smart.



    The Feds rarely give details on cases like this until they're over. Google could say, if they want to, but they likely won't, unless they lose.
  • Reply 32 of 60
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    There are a number of articles about it.



    http://www.thestreet.com/story/11115...ed&cm_ite=Feed



    Your link says nothing about what Google actually did that was so grievous.



    I'll save you the time in looking since no one knows what this is about other than the involved parties. There hasn't been any claim so far by the DoJ that Google themselves did anything specifically wrong. According to press reports this was an investigation into practices by some of Google's advertising partners. Since Google is the one with the deep pockets, they're the ones who will be expected to pony up.
  • Reply 33 of 60
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    It doesn't matter what company it is. If Apple is found flouting the laws, then they should be subject to massive fines as well. No favoritism there.



    That would be a pretty serious violation if true, wouldn't you agree Mel? I mean as long as we're guessing about whether Google or Apple is/are breaking any laws.
  • Reply 34 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Most advertising is a form of fraud, defined as misrepresentation, deception for financial gain, so that could be considered criminal, and civil depending on the jurisdiction. But it is shades of gray [grey]. Being evil is not against the law, only getting caught is.



    That's not really true. Most advertising plays up the good, and plays down the bad. Exaggeration has never been considered to be fraud, unless it's deceiving enough so that the average viewer wouldn't be able to tell. Ads are rarely like that.



    I remember, perhaps 30 years ago, that Campbell's Soup did an Ad that was taken off the year because of what was thought of as deception, but really wasn't. What happened was that they had a "chunky" soup, and tried to photograph it, and film it. It didn't work. For some reason, the photography didn't look as it actually did. So they used some clear marbles at the bottom of the soup plate to make it look as it did in "person".



    I remember that because was in advertising at the time, and knew the copyrighter for the Ad. I don't remember how it was found out, but things like that happen all the time. More often than believed, items don't look "right" in the photo or video, and so need to be "fixed".



    Is that deception? I don't think so, but the laws are fairly specific, and often the conclusion is that it can't be done.



    And much of advertising is opinion. If we decide that all adults think like six year olds, then I guess it's easy to deceive them. But I don't agree.
  • Reply 35 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Your link says nothing about what Google actually did that was so grievous.



    I'll save you the time in looking since no one knows what this is about other than the involved parties. There hasn't been any claim so far by the DoJ that Google themselves did anything specifically wrong. According to press reports this was an investigation into practices by some of Google's advertising partners. Since Google is the one with the deep pockets, they're the ones who will be expected to pony up.



    No. If it was third parties, then they would be cited. It's Google, so they're being cited. Google's press releases seen to infer that they know they did something, but that they're not sure if they will win or lose.



    As I said earlier, The DOJ rarely comments on ongoing investigations of this type, and the company isn't obligated to comment either. We'll find out when it's over.
  • Reply 36 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    That would be a pretty serious violation if true, wouldn't you agree Mel? I mean as long as we're guessing about whether Google or Apple is/are breaking any laws.



    Well, it's all about the "if it's true", and of course, whether any laws have been broken.



    We don't know for sure in either case. But Google's case seems to be coming to a head soon, while we have no idea at what stage the investigation into Apple is.



    So we can talk about Google now, as many other outlets are, and we have to wait until we find out something about Apple.



    This article seems to give a pretty good explanation of what's going on with Google. It's what i heard about this before.



    http://www.foxbusiness.com/technolog...0m-doj-charge/



    This quote about the EU regulators looking into Google's alleged Ad practices is the same issue the DOJ is looking into.



    "European regulators continue to probe Google over its popular search system, questioning whether the Internet behemoth unfairly manipulates search results to drive advertising sales and favor its own services."
  • Reply 37 of 60
    citycity Posts: 522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by paxman View Post


    Seriously? First off - just instinctively, that is one bad idea. Giving another 15 seconds thought it becomes apparent that you really have no idea of what drives apple's design ethos if you think they would ever produce an L-shaped iPad stand. Think about the practicality of such a stand - how would it work? Would you have one stand for vertical and one for horizontal? Or would you have two male connectors exposed at all times? If so, would one automatically retract? And how easy would it be to connect your device in the horizontal position? The stand would have to be super heavy and very rigid, and even then I suspect you'd need two hands to place your iPad in the stand. I would think about it for another 15 seconds if it seemed worthwhile but I just don't have the time. \



    I like the "L" on its side. It seems to me that it would work for both portrait and landscape orientation using inductive coils.
  • Reply 38 of 60
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    No. If it was third parties, then they would be cited. It's Google, so they're being cited. Google's press releases seen to infer that they know they did something, but that they're not sure if they will win or lose..



    The official SEC filing on this seems to imply it wasn't specifically a Google issue.



    Quote: "In May 2011, in connection with a potential resolution of an investigation by the United States Department of Justice into the use of Google advertising by certain advertisers, we accrued $500 million for the three month period ended March 31, 2011."
  • Reply 39 of 60
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,716member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by city View Post


    I like the "L" on its side. It seems to me that it would work for both portrait and landscape orientation using inductive coils.



    But why the L shape? With a dock connector on both the short and long side there is no need for an L. An L just seems an awkward design, to me. As far as inductive coils go, how would these work? I thought inductive coils were mostly used in cars, so maybe I am missing something, here? Can someone explain how inductive coils would facilitate the optional positioning of an iPad?
  • Reply 40 of 60
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    The official SEC filing on this seems to imply it wasn't specifically a Google issue.



    Quote: "In May 2011, in connection with a potential resolution of an investigation by the United States Department of Justice into the use of Google advertising by certain advertisers, we accrued $500 million for the three month period ended March 31, 2011."



    If you read the article I posted, you would understand it, instead of repeating the same old thing.
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