<strong>I shold have known that the examples I used would be taken as what sparked the thought for the thread . . .
I am aware that these examples are small, almost silly . . in fact they are silly . . .as far as television is concerned . . . and also what I am talking about is not the 'demise' of American power in one administrations time but a continual decline in the perception of the US from 'relatively happy about us' to downrightt boycotting anything American in a matter of a number of years.
Many of you conservatives yell out about anti-Americanism . . . well, I'm saying the same thing now and you can't see past your knee-jerk reactions to me as a poster.
I'm talking about that perception of us having a real and lasting impact on our might economically.
This perception may be being fostered by specific elements but nonetheless its growing radically and quickly since 911.
much more than just buildings and victims came down when the towers fell: a perception of America as a stable and benign (or relatively not-benign) super-power collapsed into a new picture of a vulnerable spoiled child. (something about the Victim effect that BRussell talked about in another thread is at play . . . and maybe that's what I'm really talking about!)
Unilateralism may seem like a buzzword to those that could not see any reason to even think half-twice about the push for war with Iraq . . . but nonetheless it has come about as a useful word because it describes a real phenomena.
This perception is real, South Koreans were, until recently, almost fanatically pro-American. A shift in global perspective has made us, the victim of a deadly terrorist attack, into the causus primus (mock Latin) of all that's bad in the world but especially our own victimhood: and the way we are handling things is not helping any at all.
Something tells me that if North Korea gets the bomb, they will definately be very pro-American again soon.
Actually in my opinion it is the world itself that has been freeloading in many ways, and like all good freeloaders, they seem haughty and rude when you tell them to stop eating your food and get off your couch.
America has been the police officer and economic savior of the world many times over. There have been times recently where we have simply decided not to save a currency, or demand that the E.U. for example help keep the peace in Kosovo.
The real souring is likely occuring as the costs associated with these things is taken out of already debt-ridden and slumping E.U and asian economies. The U.S. economy is stagnant but growth both in true jobs and economic output hasn't increased in Europe and Japan for almost a decade.
Likewise there could be a residial cost associated with "yankee imperialism." You wander the world now and for better or worse a lot of it looks like America Jr. There are American fast food restaurants, products, and culture practically everywhere.
When you have been on the losing side for so long, even little hits feel good. So there isn't a true weakness in America, just a slowing of the incredible march of progress as there has been so long.
This renewing in America does happen quickly and cyclically. America has a bit of dot bomb illness, a bit of a stock market hangover, a few problems here and there.
The second anyone shows a little weakness all the doubters and the wolves come wandering out of the shadows. Why should this time be any different?
[quote]The economy is not in good shape in any way, shape, or form. Just look around. I've never heard of all the major airlines contemplating going bankrupt! Jobs can't be found out there. Look at the figures from retailers from Christmas! Geez, you'd have to blind ( or delusional ) not to see it. <hr></blockquote>
The overall picture is simply NOT bad. The airlines are bankrupt because the industry has been screwed up for years and years....then 9/11 came along. They are finalyl starting to figure out that you can't have 16 flights to Orlando from Philadelphia every day. It's not just the economy. The Christmas season was not good for brick and mortar retailers. Online sales went up...dramatically. Wal-Mart did $1 billion on Black Friday alone. The trend is away from botiques in the malls and towards places like Target, Sam's Club and Wal-Mart.
I do recognize the economy is not in great shape. 3% growth isn't bad. Unemployment is right around 6%....not bad either. We were at like 8% in 1992. Production numbers increased dramatically in stats released just today. The real problem spots are Tourism, Tech and Transportation.
pfflam:
[quote]Unilateralism may seem like a buzzword to those that could not see any reason to even think half-twice about the push for war with Iraq . . . but nonetheless it has come about as a useful word because it describes a real phenomena. <hr></blockquote>
But it isn't being done unilaterally. Not at all. Yes, we put the topic on the table. That doesn't make it unilateral.
[quote]This perception is real, South Koreans were, until recently, almost fanatically pro-American. A shift in global perspective has made us, the victim of a deadly terrorist attack, into the causus primus (mock Latin) of all that's bad in the world but especially our own victimhood: and the way we are handling things is not helping any at all. <hr></blockquote>
First, I realize there is some significant opposition to the US in South Korea. I don't know how widespread it is....I think you may be overstating it. In any case, I find it amazing that South Koreans protest the US. Absolutely amazing. There is perhaps no other nation in the world that depends as much on the US for its very right to exist. We lost almost 30,000 men defending her, and have 37,000 there now. North Korea would run S. Korea into the sea without us.
Now on to "how we are handling things", as pfflam puts it. I assume he means foreign policy and the war on terror. As usual though, he offers criticism in broad strokes and no specific solutions. What are your problems specifically?
1) Israel have to pay for all its hardware and all the money that comes from US.
2) US have to pay for their responsibility of global waming.
3) US (and EU for that matter) have to pay compentation for the life ruined in sweatshop in third world countries producing products for our market. Ruined by unhealthy working conditions and compensated as if it were workers from our own country (=$$$)
4) The agricultural industry have to compensate for the life lost by their propaganda for monocultural farming in third world countries.
I mean the rhetoric on N. Korea, the pulling out of the crimes against humanity court, and especially the insistence that we have a war with Iraq.
Particularly the last one . . . I reaize that Bush is truly hoping that we don't go to war (at least that would be my benificent take on it rather than my more cynical version) and that he wants to have a resolution that would come bloodlessly but because of his application of pressure . . .*ehem*
. . .no really truly
anyway
[quote] Actually in my opinion it is the world itself that has been freeloading in many ways, and like all good freeloaders, they seem haughty and rude when you tell them to stop eating your food and get off your couch.<hr></blockquote>I try to be non-partisan and to be open to even conservative thinking but thisgets the cake: does the fact that we consume 60% of the globes resources mean anything to you and that out of all of us, 1% of us consumes 40% of that!?!?!?!?!?
What about the stipulations attached to ANY of the World Bank and IMF loans given to third world and developing countries since the 60s that have demanded removal of any trade tarrifs whatsoever WHILE our EXPORTS TO THOSE COUNTRIES ARE SUBSIDIZED HEAVILY by the US government!!!!!!
thus effectively killing local industry, competition and production . . . over and over and over in all the third world countries that took emergency loans . . . then a heavy interest on the loans and stipulations against taxtion and failing local economies due to the destruction of local production because of the inundation from US subsidized goods . .
. . um . .. is that being the "savior" of the world's economy?!?!
and as for the phantom of US "Imperialism" it might not be imperialism and I think that globalization is inevitable and will need to run its course before we can have real global equity . . . however, I also understand that people can feel that they are being overrun by American Imperialism when: [quote] You wander the world now and for better or worse a lot of it looks like America Jr. There are American fast food restaurants, products, and culture practically everywhere. <hr></blockquote>and when you see that your local culture is being taken by these Franchulates . . . anyway
rant over.
As far as the other posts . . . if you could read critically (instead of like knee-jerks) you would see that what I was innitially lamenting amounts to my whine at the fear of the loss of American Hegemony . . . I was proposing that to remain the Empire we should be more diplomatic . . diplomacy now would maintain power later . . .
. but now I see what I was thinking and never mind . . . .
The overall picture is simply NOT bad. The airlines are bankrupt because the industry has been screwed up for years and years....then 9/11 came along. They are finalyl starting to figure out that you can't have 16 flights to Orlando from Philadelphia every day. It's not just the economy. The Christmas season was not good for brick and mortar retailers. Online sales went up...dramatically. Wal-Mart did $1 billion on Black Friday alone. The trend is away from botiques in the malls and towards places like Target, Sam's Club and Wal-Mart.
I do recognize the economy is not in great shape. 3% growth isn't bad. Unemployment is right around 6%....not bad either. We were at like 8% in 1992. Production numbers increased dramatically in stats released just today. The real problem spots are Tourism, Tech and Transportation.
Perhaps the problem is this " not recognizing " business. You have a way of ignoring the truth by supplying your own interpretation.
It was the same way with you insisting that Iraq had WOM as you put it. What's been 5 weeks now? And guess what...........NOTHING!
Just go ask any poor slob on the street looking for a job. They will tell you the truth. By the way while going over the headlines at CNN after Christmas I think " Grim picture " was used in the description. That doesn't sound strong to me.
Quite frankly I own 2 houses and I just refinanced my equity loan on one since interest rates are the lowest they've been since the 60's.
1) Israel have to pay for all its hardware and all the money that comes from US.
2) US have to pay for their responsibility of global waming.
3) US (and EU for that matter) have to pay compentation for the life ruined in sweatshop in third world countries producing products for our market. Ruined by unhealthy working conditions and compensated as if it were workers from our own country (=$$$)
4) The agricultural industry have to compensate for the life lost by their propaganda for monocultural farming in third world countries.
5) etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israelis are very grateful for the help they receive from America. So I don?t see how the S. Korean example applies, if it even applies to the S. Koreans. Like I said before, I really don?t know enough to say whether it does. But it?s so nice to see that love for Israel (and the US) is first and foremost in your heart and mind. Your parents must be really proud of you.
I try to be non-partisan and to be open to even conservative thinking but thisgets the cake: does the fact that we consume 60% of the globes resources mean anything to you and that out of all of us, 1% of us consumes 40% of that!?!?!?!?!?
What about the stipulations attached to ANY of the World Bank and IMF loans given to third world and developing countries since the 60s that have demanded removal of any trade tarrifs whatsoever WHILE our EXPORTS TO THOSE COUNTRIES ARE SUBSIDIZED HEAVILY by the US government!!!!!!
thus effectively killing local industry, competition and production . . . over and over and over in all the third world countries that took emergency loans . . . then a heavy interest on the loans and stipulations against taxtion and failing local economies due to the destruction of local production because of the inundation from US subsidized goods . .
. . um . .. is that being the "savior" of the world's economy?!?!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
pfflam, really!! You?re talking like a naive 10 year old. They don?t like these terms they can go elsewhere. No one is forcing anyone to accept the World Bank/IMF loans. America doesn?t owe a thing to these countries. If they don?t like it, they can go back to mooching off the Soviets. Oh, I forgot, the Soviets went bankrupt. Well, there?s always the Chinese. Yeah, right.
It is insulting for you to suggest that some of these poor countries that are locked into poverty are too lazy to find their way out. That kind of thinking is what's wrong here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No one is locked into anything. America is not forcing anyone into anything. It?s a free choice. If you want to trade with us, these are the rules. If you don?t like it, get lost. Find someone else to trade with, or mooch of. It?s that simple.
<strong>And to add . . .yes we should pull out of S Korea and charge them for our services
good idea</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not a good idea. So the South Koreans are mad at us. You want us to really come across as a spoiled child? Then we should take your advice and go home.
The better choice is diplomacy. Seems to me that South Korea should be an easier diplomatic problem to solve than most. As regards the North, we are already pursuing a multilateral strategy. Japan, China and Russia all have even more to gain by keeping North Korea nuke-free than do we. Perhaps as much from necessity (we already have our hands full with the Iraqi situation) as from conviction, but so far we've dealt with North Korea by deferring to Japan, South Korea and China. So what is it? You've changed your mind about multilateralism?
One more thing: our troops don't defend South Korea so much as they act as a tripwire. It has to give the North Koreans pause to know that any invasion of the South would immediately draw us in. Remove our troops and you make an invasion from the North a lot more likely. These days there's a lot not to like about the way things are in Korea. That said, we could easily make matters a lot worse if we act impetuously.
If it is pounded over and over and over it must be true.
Forget the real problems of this world just bring up America and Bush and all the problems are within view??? right? I remember how not that many years ago it was the Jews behind all the problems of the world... Anyone else remember?
If only the world were mature and civil. If only people could hold their composure and articulate with civility and detail the problems of the world and not just point this finger.
No other country has stood for freedom and human rights as America does. No other country has done as much to keep the world stable. While people in some European countries sit in their chair and attack all things American with no value added to solve problems, the world goes on and dangers do continue to gather against the freedom loving world. I have no problem with Europe as a whole but I wish more Europeans would join the leadership gap the world has. Instead of sit back and relax and Blame Bush... Why not help voice some leadership skills outside the boarders of your native european country.
The world needs leadership and I would hope Europe would join in.
I don´t see me targeting US in this. My point was that it is silly to take one aspect out of the international relations and say "oh yeah. But we used so-and-so much money for you. Now pay up." You have to consider the whole (and Mika: Yes I put the Israel example in just for you. Aren´t you proud? )
Lets try another one. Consider every loan paid to non-elected leaders of countries to be illegitime and should not be paid back.
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>We cause all problems... The US that is...
America is Bad! Don't we all know this by now?
If it is pounded over and over and over it must be true.
Forget the real problems of this world just bring up America and Bush and all the problems are within view??? right? I remember how not that many years ago it was the Jews behind all the problems of the world... Anyone else remember?
If only the world were mature and civil. If only people could hold their composure and articulate with civility and detail the problems of the world and not just point this finger.
No other country has stood for freedom and human rights as America does. No other country has done as much to keep the world stable. While people in some European countries sit in their chair and attack all things American with no value added to solve problems, the world goes on and dangers do continue to gather against the freedom loving world. I have no problem with Europe as a whole but I wish more Europeans would join the leadership gap the world has. Instead of sit back and relax and Blame Bush... Why not help voice some leadership skills outside the boarders of your native european country.
The world needs leadership and I would hope Europe would join in.
Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>
We do a lot of good but you simply can't ignore what we are not doing. The Kyoto Protocol is important. We pulled out while most of Europe agreed to it. That looks like taking leadership to me.
Also, please explain to me how the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was any different than the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda or Sierra Leone? Oh wait, why should we help countries that we don't have a vested monetary interest in? Political stability in Eastern Europe is important to us because it's profitable. We could care less about political stability in Africa because it simply isn't profitable.
Look, the Europeans that only bitch and complain about what America doesn't do are no different than the people like you that can only blindly support what America does do. You are opposite ends of the spectrum but both extreme, radical, and blind.
" No one is locked into anything. America is not forcing anyone into anything. It?s a free choice. If you want to trade with us, these are the rules. If you don?t like it, get lost. Find someone else to trade with, or mooch of. It?s that simple. "
You still don't get it do you?
The old ways of thinking about things won't work anymore.
One planet, one race, one chance ( considering our depleating resources ) to get it right.
Now you may say well I'll never have to deal with conseqences of still thinking like I live in an isolated tribe in the middle of a rain forest. But your children will.
Don't you care? Or are you truly blind to the changes that are happening?
This is all anti-American leftist stupidity. Just because the US doesn't agree on the shabby poorly done anti-US Kyoto protocol means we don't care and are out to ruin the world for our benefit?
<strong>This is all anti-American leftist stupidity. Just because the US doesn't agree on the shabby poorly done anti-US Kyoto protocol means we don't care and are out to ruin the world for our benefit?</strong><hr></blockquote>
And this isn't anti-American right-wing stupidity? Just because you don't like the messenger or the extent of the message doesn't mean you should outright dismiss it.
Seeking to change one's country for the better is NOT anti-American. Seeking to suppress change without the slightest consideration for said change IS.
The old ways of thinking about things won't work anymore.
One planet, one race, one chance ( considering our depleating resources ) to get it right.
Now you may say well I'll never have to deal with conseqences of still thinking like I live in an isolated tribe in the middle of a rain forest. But your children will.
Don't you care? Or are you truly blind to the changes that are happening?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
<strong>This is all anti-American leftist stupidity[...]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey. I didn´t know the presidential campaign had started yet.
Let me try: "you three are nothing but a Jewish-religious-conservative conspiracy to undermine the freedom of all freethinking individual. And you are RATS"
Consider every loan paid to non-elected leaders of countries to be illegitime and should not be paid back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I like where you're going with this. But why make the loan in the first place? Why do business with them at all?
Europe, Canada, are fond of posturing, but they?ll gladly do business with Iran, Hezbollah, and all the two bit gangster dictators in Africa and Latin America calling themselves head of state. Why should the US fall for this kind of rhetoric when the Europeans will just come in and fill in the vacuum?
Comments
<strong>I shold have known that the examples I used would be taken as what sparked the thought for the thread . . .
I am aware that these examples are small, almost silly . . in fact they are silly . . .as far as television is concerned . . . and also what I am talking about is not the 'demise' of American power in one administrations time but a continual decline in the perception of the US from 'relatively happy about us' to downrightt boycotting anything American in a matter of a number of years.
Many of you conservatives yell out about anti-Americanism . . . well, I'm saying the same thing now and you can't see past your knee-jerk reactions to me as a poster.
I'm talking about that perception of us having a real and lasting impact on our might economically.
This perception may be being fostered by specific elements but nonetheless its growing radically and quickly since 911.
much more than just buildings and victims came down when the towers fell: a perception of America as a stable and benign (or relatively not-benign) super-power collapsed into a new picture of a vulnerable spoiled child. (something about the Victim effect that BRussell talked about in another thread is at play . . . and maybe that's what I'm really talking about!)
Unilateralism may seem like a buzzword to those that could not see any reason to even think half-twice about the push for war with Iraq . . . but nonetheless it has come about as a useful word because it describes a real phenomena.
This perception is real, South Koreans were, until recently, almost fanatically pro-American. A shift in global perspective has made us, the victim of a deadly terrorist attack, into the causus primus (mock Latin) of all that's bad in the world but especially our own victimhood: and the way we are handling things is not helping any at all.
[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: pfflam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Something tells me that if North Korea gets the bomb, they will definately be very pro-American again soon.
Actually in my opinion it is the world itself that has been freeloading in many ways, and like all good freeloaders, they seem haughty and rude when you tell them to stop eating your food and get off your couch.
America has been the police officer and economic savior of the world many times over. There have been times recently where we have simply decided not to save a currency, or demand that the E.U. for example help keep the peace in Kosovo.
The real souring is likely occuring as the costs associated with these things is taken out of already debt-ridden and slumping E.U and asian economies. The U.S. economy is stagnant but growth both in true jobs and economic output hasn't increased in Europe and Japan for almost a decade.
Likewise there could be a residial cost associated with "yankee imperialism." You wander the world now and for better or worse a lot of it looks like America Jr. There are American fast food restaurants, products, and culture practically everywhere.
When you have been on the losing side for so long, even little hits feel good. So there isn't a true weakness in America, just a slowing of the incredible march of progress as there has been so long.
This renewing in America does happen quickly and cyclically. America has a bit of dot bomb illness, a bit of a stock market hangover, a few problems here and there.
The second anyone shows a little weakness all the doubters and the wolves come wandering out of the shadows. Why should this time be any different?
Nick
[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
The overall picture is simply NOT bad. The airlines are bankrupt because the industry has been screwed up for years and years....then 9/11 came along. They are finalyl starting to figure out that you can't have 16 flights to Orlando from Philadelphia every day. It's not just the economy. The Christmas season was not good for brick and mortar retailers. Online sales went up...dramatically. Wal-Mart did $1 billion on Black Friday alone. The trend is away from botiques in the malls and towards places like Target, Sam's Club and Wal-Mart.
I do recognize the economy is not in great shape. 3% growth isn't bad. Unemployment is right around 6%....not bad either. We were at like 8% in 1992. Production numbers increased dramatically in stats released just today. The real problem spots are Tourism, Tech and Transportation.
pfflam:
[quote]Unilateralism may seem like a buzzword to those that could not see any reason to even think half-twice about the push for war with Iraq . . . but nonetheless it has come about as a useful word because it describes a real phenomena. <hr></blockquote>
But it isn't being done unilaterally. Not at all. Yes, we put the topic on the table. That doesn't make it unilateral.
[quote]This perception is real, South Koreans were, until recently, almost fanatically pro-American. A shift in global perspective has made us, the victim of a deadly terrorist attack, into the causus primus (mock Latin) of all that's bad in the world but especially our own victimhood: and the way we are handling things is not helping any at all. <hr></blockquote>
First, I realize there is some significant opposition to the US in South Korea. I don't know how widespread it is....I think you may be overstating it. In any case, I find it amazing that South Koreans protest the US. Absolutely amazing. There is perhaps no other nation in the world that depends as much on the US for its very right to exist. We lost almost 30,000 men defending her, and have 37,000 there now. North Korea would run S. Korea into the sea without us.
Now on to "how we are handling things", as pfflam puts it. I assume he means foreign policy and the war on terror. As usual though, he offers criticism in broad strokes and no specific solutions. What are your problems specifically?
[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
<strong>Okay then. Let fair be fair.
1) Israel have to pay for all its hardware and all the money that comes from US.
2) US have to pay for their responsibility of global waming.
3) US (and EU for that matter) have to pay compentation for the life ruined in sweatshop in third world countries producing products for our market. Ruined by unhealthy working conditions and compensated as if it were workers from our own country (=$$$)
4) The agricultural industry have to compensate for the life lost by their propaganda for monocultural farming in third world countries.
5) etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Always blame the US!
I mean the rhetoric on N. Korea, the pulling out of the crimes against humanity court, and especially the insistence that we have a war with Iraq.
Particularly the last one . . . I reaize that Bush is truly hoping that we don't go to war (at least that would be my benificent take on it rather than my more cynical version) and that he wants to have a resolution that would come bloodlessly but because of his application of pressure . . .*ehem*
. . .no really truly
anyway
[quote] Actually in my opinion it is the world itself that has been freeloading in many ways, and like all good freeloaders, they seem haughty and rude when you tell them to stop eating your food and get off your couch.<hr></blockquote>I try to be non-partisan and to be open to even conservative thinking but thisgets the cake: does the fact that we consume 60% of the globes resources mean anything to you and that out of all of us, 1% of us consumes 40% of that!?!?!?!?!?
What about the stipulations attached to ANY of the World Bank and IMF loans given to third world and developing countries since the 60s that have demanded removal of any trade tarrifs whatsoever WHILE our EXPORTS TO THOSE COUNTRIES ARE SUBSIDIZED HEAVILY by the US government!!!!!!
thus effectively killing local industry, competition and production . . . over and over and over in all the third world countries that took emergency loans . . . then a heavy interest on the loans and stipulations against taxtion and failing local economies due to the destruction of local production because of the inundation from US subsidized goods . .
. . um . .. is that being the "savior" of the world's economy?!?!
and as for the phantom of US "Imperialism" it might not be imperialism and I think that globalization is inevitable and will need to run its course before we can have real global equity . . . however, I also understand that people can feel that they are being overrun by American Imperialism when: [quote] You wander the world now and for better or worse a lot of it looks like America Jr. There are American fast food restaurants, products, and culture practically everywhere. <hr></blockquote>and when you see that your local culture is being taken by these Franchulates . . . anyway
rant over.
As far as the other posts . . . if you could read critically (instead of like knee-jerks) you would see that what I was innitially lamenting amounts to my whine at the fear of the loss of American Hegemony . . . I was proposing that to remain the Empire we should be more diplomatic . . diplomacy now would maintain power later . . .
. but now I see what I was thinking and never mind . . . .
good idea
By SDW,
The overall picture is simply NOT bad. The airlines are bankrupt because the industry has been screwed up for years and years....then 9/11 came along. They are finalyl starting to figure out that you can't have 16 flights to Orlando from Philadelphia every day. It's not just the economy. The Christmas season was not good for brick and mortar retailers. Online sales went up...dramatically. Wal-Mart did $1 billion on Black Friday alone. The trend is away from botiques in the malls and towards places like Target, Sam's Club and Wal-Mart.
I do recognize the economy is not in great shape. 3% growth isn't bad. Unemployment is right around 6%....not bad either. We were at like 8% in 1992. Production numbers increased dramatically in stats released just today. The real problem spots are Tourism, Tech and Transportation.
Perhaps the problem is this " not recognizing " business. You have a way of ignoring the truth by supplying your own interpretation.
It was the same way with you insisting that Iraq had WOM as you put it. What's been 5 weeks now? And guess what...........NOTHING!
Just go ask any poor slob on the street looking for a job. They will tell you the truth. By the way while going over the headlines at CNN after Christmas I think " Grim picture " was used in the description. That doesn't sound strong to me.
Quite frankly I own 2 houses and I just refinanced my equity loan on one since interest rates are the lowest they've been since the 60's.
All in all I wish you were right about this one.
[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>Okay then. Let fair be fair.
1) Israel have to pay for all its hardware and all the money that comes from US.
2) US have to pay for their responsibility of global waming.
3) US (and EU for that matter) have to pay compentation for the life ruined in sweatshop in third world countries producing products for our market. Ruined by unhealthy working conditions and compensated as if it were workers from our own country (=$$$)
4) The agricultural industry have to compensate for the life lost by their propaganda for monocultural farming in third world countries.
5) etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israelis are very grateful for the help they receive from America. So I don?t see how the S. Korean example applies, if it even applies to the S. Koreans. Like I said before, I really don?t know enough to say whether it does. But it?s so nice to see that love for Israel (and the US) is first and foremost in your heart and mind. Your parents must be really proud of you.
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: zMench ]</p>
<strong>
I try to be non-partisan and to be open to even conservative thinking but thisgets the cake: does the fact that we consume 60% of the globes resources mean anything to you and that out of all of us, 1% of us consumes 40% of that!?!?!?!?!?
What about the stipulations attached to ANY of the World Bank and IMF loans given to third world and developing countries since the 60s that have demanded removal of any trade tarrifs whatsoever WHILE our EXPORTS TO THOSE COUNTRIES ARE SUBSIDIZED HEAVILY by the US government!!!!!!
thus effectively killing local industry, competition and production . . . over and over and over in all the third world countries that took emergency loans . . . then a heavy interest on the loans and stipulations against taxtion and failing local economies due to the destruction of local production because of the inundation from US subsidized goods . .
. . um . .. is that being the "savior" of the world's economy?!?!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
pfflam, really!! You?re talking like a naive 10 year old. They don?t like these terms they can go elsewhere. No one is forcing anyone to accept the World Bank/IMF loans. America doesn?t owe a thing to these countries. If they don?t like it, they can go back to mooching off the Soviets. Oh, I forgot, the Soviets went bankrupt. Well, there?s always the Chinese. Yeah, right.
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: zMench ]</p>
<strong>
It is insulting for you to suggest that some of these poor countries that are locked into poverty are too lazy to find their way out. That kind of thinking is what's wrong here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No one is locked into anything. America is not forcing anyone into anything. It?s a free choice. If you want to trade with us, these are the rules. If you don?t like it, get lost. Find someone else to trade with, or mooch of. It?s that simple.
<strong>And to add . . .yes we should pull out of S Korea and charge them for our services
good idea</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not a good idea. So the South Koreans are mad at us. You want us to really come across as a spoiled child? Then we should take your advice and go home.
The better choice is diplomacy. Seems to me that South Korea should be an easier diplomatic problem to solve than most. As regards the North, we are already pursuing a multilateral strategy. Japan, China and Russia all have even more to gain by keeping North Korea nuke-free than do we. Perhaps as much from necessity (we already have our hands full with the Iraqi situation) as from conviction, but so far we've dealt with North Korea by deferring to Japan, South Korea and China. So what is it? You've changed your mind about multilateralism?
One more thing: our troops don't defend South Korea so much as they act as a tripwire. It has to give the North Koreans pause to know that any invasion of the South would immediately draw us in. Remove our troops and you make an invasion from the North a lot more likely. These days there's a lot not to like about the way things are in Korea. That said, we could easily make matters a lot worse if we act impetuously.
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
America is Bad! Don't we all know this by now?
If it is pounded over and over and over it must be true.
Forget the real problems of this world just bring up America and Bush and all the problems are within view??? right? I remember how not that many years ago it was the Jews behind all the problems of the world... Anyone else remember?
If only the world were mature and civil. If only people could hold their composure and articulate with civility and detail the problems of the world and not just point this finger.
No other country has stood for freedom and human rights as America does. No other country has done as much to keep the world stable. While people in some European countries sit in their chair and attack all things American with no value added to solve problems, the world goes on and dangers do continue to gather against the freedom loving world. I have no problem with Europe as a whole but I wish more Europeans would join the leadership gap the world has. Instead of sit back and relax and Blame Bush... Why not help voice some leadership skills outside the boarders of your native european country.
The world needs leadership and I would hope Europe would join in.
Fellowship
<strong>
Always blame the US!</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) Israel owe US
2) US owe the world
3) US and Europe owe people in the third world
4) An Industry owe people in the third world.
I don´t see me targeting US in this. My point was that it is silly to take one aspect out of the international relations and say "oh yeah. But we used so-and-so much money for you. Now pay up." You have to consider the whole (and Mika: Yes I put the Israel example in just for you. Aren´t you proud?
Lets try another one. Consider every loan paid to non-elected leaders of countries to be illegitime and should not be paid back.
<strong>We cause all problems... The US that is...
America is Bad! Don't we all know this by now?
If it is pounded over and over and over it must be true.
Forget the real problems of this world just bring up America and Bush and all the problems are within view??? right? I remember how not that many years ago it was the Jews behind all the problems of the world... Anyone else remember?
If only the world were mature and civil. If only people could hold their composure and articulate with civility and detail the problems of the world and not just point this finger.
No other country has stood for freedom and human rights as America does. No other country has done as much to keep the world stable. While people in some European countries sit in their chair and attack all things American with no value added to solve problems, the world goes on and dangers do continue to gather against the freedom loving world. I have no problem with Europe as a whole but I wish more Europeans would join the leadership gap the world has. Instead of sit back and relax and Blame Bush... Why not help voice some leadership skills outside the boarders of your native european country.
The world needs leadership and I would hope Europe would join in.
Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>
We do a lot of good but you simply can't ignore what we are not doing. The Kyoto Protocol is important. We pulled out while most of Europe agreed to it. That looks like taking leadership to me.
Also, please explain to me how the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was any different than the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda or Sierra Leone? Oh wait, why should we help countries that we don't have a vested monetary interest in? Political stability in Eastern Europe is important to us because it's profitable. We could care less about political stability in Africa because it simply isn't profitable.
Look, the Europeans that only bitch and complain about what America doesn't do are no different than the people like you that can only blindly support what America does do. You are opposite ends of the spectrum but both extreme, radical, and blind.
" No one is locked into anything. America is not forcing anyone into anything. It?s a free choice. If you want to trade with us, these are the rules. If you don?t like it, get lost. Find someone else to trade with, or mooch of. It?s that simple. "
You still don't get it do you?
The old ways of thinking about things won't work anymore.
One planet, one race, one chance ( considering our depleating resources ) to get it right.
Now you may say well I'll never have to deal with conseqences of still thinking like I live in an isolated tribe in the middle of a rain forest. But your children will.
Don't you care? Or are you truly blind to the changes that are happening?
<strong>This is all anti-American leftist stupidity. Just because the US doesn't agree on the shabby poorly done anti-US Kyoto protocol means we don't care and are out to ruin the world for our benefit?</strong><hr></blockquote>
And this isn't anti-American right-wing stupidity? Just because you don't like the messenger or the extent of the message doesn't mean you should outright dismiss it.
Seeking to change one's country for the better is NOT anti-American. Seeking to suppress change without the slightest consideration for said change IS.
[QB
You still don't get it do you?
The old ways of thinking about things won't work anymore.
One planet, one race, one chance ( considering our depleating resources ) to get it right.
Now you may say well I'll never have to deal with conseqences of still thinking like I live in an isolated tribe in the middle of a rain forest. But your children will.
Don't you care? Or are you truly blind to the changes that are happening?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
:eek:
You're a communist!
<strong>This is all anti-American leftist stupidity[...]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey. I didn´t know the presidential campaign had started yet.
Let me try: "you three are nothing but a Jewish-religious-conservative conspiracy to undermine the freedom of all freethinking individual. And you are RATS"
Anyone else wants a shot?
<strong>
*confused*
1)
2)
3)
4)
.
.
Consider every loan paid to non-elected leaders of countries to be illegitime and should not be paid back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I like where you're going with this. But why make the loan in the first place? Why do business with them at all?
Europe, Canada, are fond of posturing, but they?ll gladly do business with Iran, Hezbollah, and all the two bit gangster dictators in Africa and Latin America calling themselves head of state. Why should the US fall for this kind of rhetoric when the Europeans will just come in and fill in the vacuum?
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: zMench ]</p>