Whether anyone switches will depend on whether the OS actually works as advertised on real hardware. The Mango OS looks pretty sweet, but so did Vista when it was announced. Microsoft has such a spotty past, I wouldn't dare predict how good this OS will be until we have the chance to use it in the real world. The question is, will Mango be a "Vista" or a "Windows 7"?
As for the "cool new features" I doubt they will be a compelling reason to buy a Mango powered phone. Take for instance the app that identifies a book from a camera. I'm sure some techno geek thought this was the coolest feature ever, but in the real world, this is not likely to work very well, if at all. The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
Microsoft has never had a shortage of "good ideas". What they lack is the ability to make products that people want to use. I have no idea whether Mango will be a good product. However, if it is a good product, I'm pretty sure it it won't be because of an app that identifies products in a photo.
I'm not saying that an app that identifies products in a photo wouldn't be cool. It would. I just don't think it will work right out of the box. Therefore, the correct business approach would be to make it available as a separate app. That way people that are into that kind of thing would use it and help develop the database. After the database is built then deploy it to the masses.
Just because the masses think they would want something doesn't mean you should give it to them. If it doesn't work, they won't like it. I think Motorola with its Xoom proved that cool stuff that doesn't work doesn't sell.
I don't see why you think the content needs to be user generated. Maybe older books won't work but they would have been able to obtain images of every book from the past 15 years even if they just scraped amazon.
All these features sound great but for me the killer for me is background tasks combined with live tiles. And being able to have multiple tiles per app, that really integrates apps with the os.
As for the "cool new features" I doubt they will be a compelling reason to buy a Mango powered phone. Take for instance the app that identifies a book from a camera. I'm sure some techno geek thought this was the coolest feature ever, but in the real world, this is not likely to work very well, if at all. The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
BTW, the Google app for iOS already has this feature (not only for books but for all kind of things) and Android naturally has this feature as well (whether as part of the OS or as a free bundled app, I don't know).
I never considered the reason to release the Bing app on iPhone was to gather information for Bing features baked into WPx. It makes sense though.
And the Bing app is still US-only. Why is that? Did they not get around to translating it yet? Limiting it to one country is not exactly the best way to get the broadest possible 'training' exposure.
The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
It's not exactly a Google Googles in that Bing Vision wasn't meant to be all encompassing. In this version it's only concerned with QR codes, Microsoft Tags, Bar codes and publication covers. I think it's clear where they are moving with this.
In one of the videos from yesterday's reveal, they showed the same recognition software on bar codes - which makes me think whether Microsoft actually compile these databases. If QR/MS TAGS/ Bar codes are generated at the source, why wouldn't front covers be?
In effect, the database has already been generated and works out of the box.
Quote:
I'm not saying that an app that identifies products in a photo wouldn't be cool. It would. I just don't think it will work right out of the box. Therefore, the correct business approach would be to make it available as a separate app. That way people that are into that kind of thing would use it and help develop the database. After the database is built then deploy it to the masses.
As explained above, I think it does work out of the box - but your argument in my opinioned was more to do with App versus Integration. These are two approaches that in the context of your argument, could be further reduced to iPhone versus Windows Phone. Obviously Apple is App-centric; everything revolves around the App. In Microsoft's case, they are positing for what they call a User-centric approach where functions are integrated into the OS and Apps are utilised (or relegated) as extensions. In some cases Apps are not required.
In some ways, I think MS were fortunate that they decided to re-enter the smartphone arena relatively late. They obviously observed the pros and cons of iOS and Android and have come up with an OS that at it's core, is differentiating, but not for the sake of it.
Facebook chat is in there too. I've got to assume they'll bring in Skype as well. I'm not sure if it will make Mango though.
If they sync this back to the cloud and hook Messenger into it then it will be a blueprint for how a phone should handle messaging.
In my opinion, the integrated Peoples Hub whereby you can chat to all your contacts regardless of whether they are using Messenger, Facebook Chat or SMS/MMS - all from a single point, is one of Windows Phones best features.
I think you're right about Skype. They will almost certainly integrate it aswell. For the time being they are producing a standalone app, the same way they did with Twitter [In Mango, Twitter is now integrated into the Peoples Hub].
You alluded to this approach as a blueprint for how phones handle messaging, but I would go one further as this being an approach for how phones and other devices communicate with each other:- Texting, IM, VOIP, Video chat etc.
With MS having the largest number of IM users worldwide via Messenger, MS' favoured partnership with Facebook and by acquiring Skype (and Skype users) - It's hard not to see MS covering all grounds with this approach.
Sure Apple has Facetime and RIM has BBS, but it's all one-way traffic. Most platforms have Messenger (Android doesn't) but everyone has Skype!
It would be interesting to see how Skype is integrated into Messenger (Windows Live) and from that it's clear that MS will be the first to have a true cross platform standard. essentially MS will have a foothold in all territories.
Windows Phone requires a Live ID, by extension your Skype account is a Live account, which in turn allows you access to Microsoft's Windows Live ecosystem: Hotmail, Office, Messenger, Xbox and Zune.
Of course not. Microsoft has to study what Apple releases first.
The who copied who game is fun to play sometimes, but the unfortunate truth is that the development cycles at Microsoft have all the speed and finesse of a 400 pound man navigating a pool of treacle with a ball and chain on each foot. The feature list for Windows 8 would be very much locked in place already.
I'm really interested to see what Apple do though. Their cloud platform must be a part of iOS 5 and Lion, but they are giving very little away.
It will be exciting to see Apple's spin on the cloud. Most people have a pretty good idea of how the cloud should work, but Apple tend to put in a little something that no-one really thought of before.
You alluded to this approach as a blueprint for how phones handle messaging, but I would go one further as this being an approach for how phones and other devices communicate with each other:- Texting, IM, VOIP, Video chat etc.
VOIP is just one huge question mark at the moment. If Microsoft bake Skype directly into WPx, and create something like Google Voice at the back end... it would be a game changer... but I can't shake the feeling of the carriers collectively tearing Microsoft a new one.
BTW, the Google app for iOS already has this feature (not only for books but for all kind of things) and Android naturally has this feature as well (whether as part of the OS or as a free bundled app, I don't know).
Windows Phone is still playing catch-up.
Two words... "user experience".
A bunch of WPx can be replicated on other platforms... but that's not the point.
You want Bing Vision? Just download the Google app, sign up for a Google account and sign in to use it.
MS Office hub? Sure, just download the OneNote app (sign up for a Windows Live account and log in) and Quickoffice Pro. You want that sync'd? Sign up for Dropbox, download the Dropbox app and log in.
Your work uses SharePoint? That's fine. Download SharePlus, log in and you're on your way (just make sure to remember where you store your documents so you can use the correct app to open them later on)
Facebook? Yup. Just download the Facebook app, launch it and sign in.
You have contacts on LinkedIn as well? That's ok, just download the app, log in and launch it when you want to see one of those contacts.
You use SMS, Facebook chat, MSN? Same deal. Download the apps and log in and lauch them as well. Just remember which service each of your friends use and lauch the right app to chat.
The who copied who game is fun to play sometimes, but the unfortunate truth is that the development cycles at Microsoft have all the speed and finesse of a 400 pound man navigating a pool of treacle with a ball and chain on each foot. The feature list for Windows 8 would be very much locked in place already.
I'm really interested to see what Apple do though. Their cloud platform must be a part of iOS 5 and Lion, but they are giving very little away.
It will be exciting to see Apple's spin on the cloud. Most people have a pretty good idea of how the cloud should work, but Apple tend to put in a little something that no-one really thought of before.
Strawman. No one actually said that Windows was the one that was copying (well, except maybe Windows 7 ). They were referring to Windows Phone (is Mango 8 too?) where Microsoft said nothing about cloud integration, while Android technically has all the pieces in place, but doesnt utilize it, and iOS 5 is rumored to have some form of it. And actually, didn't a previous AppleInsider article reference a fact that Windows 8 builds were still early and things could change? (not that I'm suspecting they would change much anyway). Well, assuming Ballmer was wrong and the PR person said basically that he lied.
EDIT: Guess it's not a previous article, it's the article 2 articles newer than this one. But my point still stands :P
Strawman. No one actually said that Windows was the one that was copying (well, except maybe Windows 7 ). They were referring to Windows Phone (is Mango 8 too?) where Microsoft said nothing about cloud integration, while Android technically has all the pieces in place, but doesnt utilize it, and iOS 5 is rumored to have some form of it.
Mango is end of this year and version 7.5. My guess is version 8 will be around the same time 2012 (coincidently - or not - the same time as Windows 8 releases).
In any case you must have skipped my rambling... I'm talking about a complete cloud platform, not simply cloud integration for a phone.
I've got no idea what you mean by "Microsoft said nothing about cloud integration". WP7 already has deep cloud integration, and "Mango" will build on that.
Apple VPs could say something like "we start with a 100% pure slab of aluminum (or aloo-MIN-yum, as Jony Ive would say)....
He'd say that because he'd spell it aluminium, which apparently is how Americans preferred to spell it until about 1900, when aluminum finally began to win out.
I'm impressed with the update as well. It seems that with Mango Microsoft will be playing feature leapfrog instead of feature catch-up.
Of particular note:
Integrated & group messaging. I assume Skype will eventually find its way into this as well.
IE9 with hardware acceleration. I think hardware acceleration is a basic requirement of any HTML5 browser.
Bing/Local Scout. The search features highlighted one of the very few holes in Apple's armour. I'll be interested to see how Apple approaches this.
Zune Pass/Smart DJ. With the addition of private/public cloud integration it would be the perfect next-gen music solution.
{...}
EDIT: OK... so I rambled
Hey Firefly: I'll take your kind of rambling any day over the one- or two-liners fired off by fanboys on either side (myself included).
I thought your post, as well as those by several others above, points out some reasonable points regarding Mango. This does not seem like the usual Redmond Copy Machine in action and some of these features appear to be thought out and compelling.
He'd say that because he'd spell it aluminium, which apparently is how Americans preferred to spell it until about 1900, when aluminum finally began to win out.
That was during the US' great "word simplification" program, eliminating unnecessary and (for the most part) silent letters in words such as "programme," "favour," "ageing," "signalling," "pointe," "shoppes," and "whilst."
(Off topic: How does one turn off the author-correct "feature" in Safari? It took me forever to type and retype those words above because of constant auto-correction. I've won spelling bees in grade school, fercrissakes, and I know how to spell so I don't need any "clippy"-type of helper. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!)
A bunch of WPx can be replicated on other platforms... but that's not the point.
You want Bing Vision? Just download the Google app, sign up for a Google account and sign in to use it.
MS Office hub? Sure, just download the OneNote app (sign up for a Windows Live account and log in) and Quickoffice Pro. You want that sync'd? Sign up for Dropbox, download the Dropbox app and log in.
Your work uses SharePoint? That's fine. Download SharePlus, log in and you're on your way (just make sure to remember where you store your documents so you can use the correct app to open them later on)
Facebook? Yup. Just download the Facebook app, launch it and sign in.
You have contacts on LinkedIn as well? That's ok, just download the app, log in and launch it when you want to see one of those contacts.
You use SMS, Facebook chat, MSN? Same deal. Download the apps and log in and lauch them as well. Just remember which service each of your friends use and lauch the right app to chat.
LOL
From where i'm sitting, someone else should be playing catch-up...
Comments
Whether anyone switches will depend on whether the OS actually works as advertised on real hardware. The Mango OS looks pretty sweet, but so did Vista when it was announced. Microsoft has such a spotty past, I wouldn't dare predict how good this OS will be until we have the chance to use it in the real world. The question is, will Mango be a "Vista" or a "Windows 7"?
As for the "cool new features" I doubt they will be a compelling reason to buy a Mango powered phone. Take for instance the app that identifies a book from a camera. I'm sure some techno geek thought this was the coolest feature ever, but in the real world, this is not likely to work very well, if at all. The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
Microsoft has never had a shortage of "good ideas". What they lack is the ability to make products that people want to use. I have no idea whether Mango will be a good product. However, if it is a good product, I'm pretty sure it it won't be because of an app that identifies products in a photo.
I'm not saying that an app that identifies products in a photo wouldn't be cool. It would. I just don't think it will work right out of the box. Therefore, the correct business approach would be to make it available as a separate app. That way people that are into that kind of thing would use it and help develop the database. After the database is built then deploy it to the masses.
Just because the masses think they would want something doesn't mean you should give it to them. If it doesn't work, they won't like it. I think Motorola with its Xoom proved that cool stuff that doesn't work doesn't sell.
I don't see why you think the content needs to be user generated. Maybe older books won't work but they would have been able to obtain images of every book from the past 15 years even if they just scraped amazon.
All these features sound great but for me the killer for me is background tasks combined with live tiles. And being able to have multiple tiles per app, that really integrates apps with the os.
As for the "cool new features" I doubt they will be a compelling reason to buy a Mango powered phone. Take for instance the app that identifies a book from a camera. I'm sure some techno geek thought this was the coolest feature ever, but in the real world, this is not likely to work very well, if at all. The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
BTW, the Google app for iOS already has this feature (not only for books but for all kind of things) and Android naturally has this feature as well (whether as part of the OS or as a free bundled app, I don't know).
Windows Phone is still playing catch-up.
They did. It's in the iPhone Bing app.
I never considered the reason to release the Bing app on iPhone was to gather information for Bing features baked into WPx. It makes sense though.
And the Bing app is still US-only. Why is that? Did they not get around to translating it yet? Limiting it to one country is not exactly the best way to get the broadest possible 'training' exposure.
The problem is it requires a database of known objects to match to the object being photographed. Realistically this database will have to be generated from user requests. However, before MS will have time to generate a usable database, the general public will have figured out that it works properly 1 in 20 times. It will be a bad experience for most and no one will use it.
It's not exactly a Google Googles in that Bing Vision wasn't meant to be all encompassing. In this version it's only concerned with QR codes, Microsoft Tags, Bar codes and publication covers. I think it's clear where they are moving with this.
In one of the videos from yesterday's reveal, they showed the same recognition software on bar codes - which makes me think whether Microsoft actually compile these databases. If QR/MS TAGS/ Bar codes are generated at the source, why wouldn't front covers be?
In effect, the database has already been generated and works out of the box.
I'm not saying that an app that identifies products in a photo wouldn't be cool. It would. I just don't think it will work right out of the box. Therefore, the correct business approach would be to make it available as a separate app. That way people that are into that kind of thing would use it and help develop the database. After the database is built then deploy it to the masses.
As explained above, I think it does work out of the box - but your argument in my opinioned was more to do with App versus Integration. These are two approaches that in the context of your argument, could be further reduced to iPhone versus Windows Phone. Obviously Apple is App-centric; everything revolves around the App. In Microsoft's case, they are positing for what they call a User-centric approach where functions are integrated into the OS and Apps are utilised (or relegated) as extensions. In some cases Apps are not required.
In some ways, I think MS were fortunate that they decided to re-enter the smartphone arena relatively late. They obviously observed the pros and cons of iOS and Android and have come up with an OS that at it's core, is differentiating, but not for the sake of it.
Facebook chat is in there too. I've got to assume they'll bring in Skype as well. I'm not sure if it will make Mango though.
If they sync this back to the cloud and hook Messenger into it then it will be a blueprint for how a phone should handle messaging.
In my opinion, the integrated Peoples Hub whereby you can chat to all your contacts regardless of whether they are using Messenger, Facebook Chat or SMS/MMS - all from a single point, is one of Windows Phones best features.
I think you're right about Skype. They will almost certainly integrate it aswell. For the time being they are producing a standalone app, the same way they did with Twitter [In Mango, Twitter is now integrated into the Peoples Hub].
You alluded to this approach as a blueprint for how phones handle messaging, but I would go one further as this being an approach for how phones and other devices communicate with each other:- Texting, IM, VOIP, Video chat etc.
With MS having the largest number of IM users worldwide via Messenger, MS' favoured partnership with Facebook and by acquiring Skype (and Skype users) - It's hard not to see MS covering all grounds with this approach.
Sure Apple has Facetime and RIM has BBS, but it's all one-way traffic. Most platforms have Messenger (Android doesn't) but everyone has Skype!
It would be interesting to see how Skype is integrated into Messenger (Windows Live) and from that it's clear that MS will be the first to have a true cross platform standard. essentially MS will have a foothold in all territories.
Windows Phone requires a Live ID, by extension your Skype account is a Live account, which in turn allows you access to Microsoft's Windows Live ecosystem: Hotmail, Office, Messenger, Xbox and Zune.
The problem I have is that Microsoft still hasn?t revealed their full cloud platform. WPx doesn't go anywhere near far enough.
Of course not. Microsoft has to study what Apple releases first.
Of course not. Microsoft has to study what Apple releases first.
The who copied who game is fun to play sometimes, but the unfortunate truth is that the development cycles at Microsoft have all the speed and finesse of a 400 pound man navigating a pool of treacle with a ball and chain on each foot. The feature list for Windows 8 would be very much locked in place already.
I'm really interested to see what Apple do though. Their cloud platform must be a part of iOS 5 and Lion, but they are giving very little away.
It will be exciting to see Apple's spin on the cloud. Most people have a pretty good idea of how the cloud should work, but Apple tend to put in a little something that no-one really thought of before.
You alluded to this approach as a blueprint for how phones handle messaging, but I would go one further as this being an approach for how phones and other devices communicate with each other:- Texting, IM, VOIP, Video chat etc.
VOIP is just one huge question mark at the moment. If Microsoft bake Skype directly into WPx, and create something like Google Voice at the back end... it would be a game changer... but I can't shake the feeling of the carriers collectively tearing Microsoft a new one.
BTW, the Google app for iOS already has this feature (not only for books but for all kind of things) and Android naturally has this feature as well (whether as part of the OS or as a free bundled app, I don't know).
Windows Phone is still playing catch-up.
Two words... "user experience".
A bunch of WPx can be replicated on other platforms... but that's not the point.
You want Bing Vision? Just download the Google app, sign up for a Google account and sign in to use it.
MS Office hub? Sure, just download the OneNote app (sign up for a Windows Live account and log in) and Quickoffice Pro. You want that sync'd? Sign up for Dropbox, download the Dropbox app and log in.
Your work uses SharePoint? That's fine. Download SharePlus, log in and you're on your way (just make sure to remember where you store your documents so you can use the correct app to open them later on)
Facebook? Yup. Just download the Facebook app, launch it and sign in.
You have contacts on LinkedIn as well? That's ok, just download the app, log in and launch it when you want to see one of those contacts.
You use SMS, Facebook chat, MSN? Same deal. Download the apps and log in and lauch them as well. Just remember which service each of your friends use and lauch the right app to chat.
The who copied who game is fun to play sometimes, but the unfortunate truth is that the development cycles at Microsoft have all the speed and finesse of a 400 pound man navigating a pool of treacle with a ball and chain on each foot. The feature list for Windows 8 would be very much locked in place already.
I'm really interested to see what Apple do though. Their cloud platform must be a part of iOS 5 and Lion, but they are giving very little away.
It will be exciting to see Apple's spin on the cloud. Most people have a pretty good idea of how the cloud should work, but Apple tend to put in a little something that no-one really thought of before.
Strawman. No one actually said that Windows was the one that was copying (well, except maybe Windows 7
EDIT: Guess it's not a previous article, it's the article 2 articles newer than this one. But my point still stands :P
Strawman. No one actually said that Windows was the one that was copying (well, except maybe Windows 7
Mango is end of this year and version 7.5. My guess is version 8 will be around the same time 2012 (coincidently - or not - the same time as Windows 8 releases).
In any case you must have skipped my rambling... I'm talking about a complete cloud platform, not simply cloud integration for a phone.
I've got no idea what you mean by "Microsoft said nothing about cloud integration". WP7 already has deep cloud integration, and "Mango" will build on that.
Apple VPs could say something like "we start with a 100% pure slab of aluminum (or aloo-MIN-yum, as Jony Ive would say)....
He'd say that because he'd spell it aluminium, which apparently is how Americans preferred to spell it until about 1900, when aluminum finally began to win out.
I'll try not to ramble too much!
I'm impressed with the update as well. It seems that with Mango Microsoft will be playing feature leapfrog instead of feature catch-up.
Of particular note:
- Integrated & group messaging. I assume Skype will eventually find its way into this as well.
- IE9 with hardware acceleration. I think hardware acceleration is a basic requirement of any HTML5 browser.
- Bing/Local Scout. The search features highlighted one of the very few holes in Apple's armour. I'll be interested to see how Apple approaches this.
- Zune Pass/Smart DJ. With the addition of private/public cloud integration it would be the perfect next-gen music solution.
{...}EDIT: OK... so I rambled
Hey Firefly: I'll take your kind of rambling any day over the one- or two-liners fired off by fanboys on either side (myself included).
I thought your post, as well as those by several others above, points out some reasonable points regarding Mango. This does not seem like the usual Redmond Copy Machine in action and some of these features appear to be thought out and compelling.
He'd say that because he'd spell it aluminium, which apparently is how Americans preferred to spell it until about 1900, when aluminum finally began to win out.
That was during the US' great "word simplification" program, eliminating unnecessary and (for the most part) silent letters in words such as "programme," "favour," "ageing," "signalling," "pointe," "shoppes," and "whilst."
(Off topic: How does one turn off the author-correct "feature" in Safari? It took me forever to type and retype those words above because of constant auto-correction. I've won spelling bees in grade school, fercrissakes, and I know how to spell so I don't need any "clippy"-type of helper. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!)
Originally Posted by noirdesir
...Windows Phone is still playing catch-up.
Two words... "user experience".
A bunch of WPx can be replicated on other platforms... but that's not the point.
You want Bing Vision? Just download the Google app, sign up for a Google account and sign in to use it.
MS Office hub? Sure, just download the OneNote app (sign up for a Windows Live account and log in) and Quickoffice Pro. You want that sync'd? Sign up for Dropbox, download the Dropbox app and log in.
Your work uses SharePoint? That's fine. Download SharePlus, log in and you're on your way (just make sure to remember where you store your documents so you can use the correct app to open them later on)
Facebook? Yup. Just download the Facebook app, launch it and sign in.
You have contacts on LinkedIn as well? That's ok, just download the app, log in and launch it when you want to see one of those contacts.
You use SMS, Facebook chat, MSN? Same deal. Download the apps and log in and lauch them as well. Just remember which service each of your friends use and lauch the right app to chat.
LOL
From where i'm sitting, someone else should be playing catch-up...