But university officials, reporting the figures this week, mainly attribute the minority gains to several new programs: investment of hundreds of millions of dollars to improve public schools in poor neighborhoods; outreach to high schools that do not traditionally send many students to the University of California; the automatic admission
of students who rank in the top 4 percent of every state high school; and a scholarship for high school students who graduate with at least a
B average. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This has been discussed very recently, and no anti-AA person here cares to tackle the subject. AA needs to be in combination with funding for schools and other similar programs. If you have one and not the other, the situation is flawed.
If we only have quotas, the flawed system will continue to produce underachieving students and quotas will remain necessary.
If you only fix the flawed system, you'll have several decades of screwed students & employees.
If you use both fixes, both problems are covered.
So, for those that want to kill AA, how to you serve the people that have been constitutionally raped? We're all willing to fund schools (hypothetically speaking), but the current generation of fsck-ed students need a solution. What to you propose? Still nothing?
This has been discussed very recently, and no anti-AA person here cares to tackle the subject. AA needs to be in combination with funding for schools and other similar programs. If you have one and not the other, the situation is flawed.
If we only have quotas, the flawed system will continue to produce underachieving students and quotas will remain necessary.
If you only fix the flawed system, you'll have several decades of screwed students & employees.
If you use both fixes, both problems are covered.
So, for those that want to kill AA, how to you serve the people that have been constitutionally raped? We're all willing to fund schools (hypothetically speaking), but the current generation of fsck-ed students need a solution. What to you propose? Still nothing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Little strong on the rhetoric there don't ya think? Constitutionally raped? What are they after the 14th and 15th amendment then? Constitutionally counseled?
First of all, even as a teacher I would remind you that college education is not the end all be all of the universe. Even 4 out of 5 white people don't have college degrees and most of them certainly aren't "f*cked."
What I believe these outreach services are really doing would be considered by some cultural imperialism. They are literally changing the culture and attitudes about education within these communities.
The point is that race was eliminated and solutions were sought for students who underachieve regardless of race. With these programs in place the percentages for under-represented minorities were back to the previous levels within 5 years. That certainly is less than a generation and it certainly isn't several decades as you asserted.
And again we aren't talking about all colleges, we are only talking about the top two UC schools and the UC system in general where enrollment fell. For the overall UC system, enrollment remained the same and plenty of campuses saw gains.
If you want a degree you will find a way. There are extension courses, community college, night school, online courses.
It is probably easier to get access to a college than ever before. If you want to fret about an Ivy League school or the top 1% schools that is another matter. However not getting a degree from that particular school doesnt mean you are screwed for life. I have NEVER been asked all the silly things people worry about on here in real life. I have never been asked my SAT scores, GPA or even where my degree was from. I had the requirements and the skills so it was never a problem.
What no AA person here addresses is what happens after you are admitted to a school. The top level schools that admit students under these AA programs typically have dropout rates of over 50%. The graduation rate goes up dramatically when these students are better matched to schools where the competition isn't so fierce that the only option is to sink or swim.
Life isn't a sprint, it is a marathon and getting someone into the starting blocks doesn't tell me how they will finish in the race.
Well judging by your racist diatribe you really DON'T know! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
You're wrong. I really DO know. Why don't you read and learn (so you won't make hasty, idiotic judgements about me in the future):
ShawnPatrick asked (perhaps rhetorically) "how would minorities advance without affirmative action?"
They would do what everyone else does, I suppose. And since Shawn specifically asked about "minorities" (which, last I checked, are affected by AA, otherwise we wouldn't be TALKING ABOUT IT, WOULD WE?), even though everything I spoke about can apply to anyone.
Hey, I included MYSELF in there, didn't I? Speaking about how I didn't want to be punished or disappoint my family by not towing the line and doing my best in school? That's pretty universal (I think I even said THAT also).
But since the thread is about AA and since Shawn said "minorities", my "diatribe" (yeah...) kinda talks about some of the roads that maybe face minorities in less-than-ideal neighborhoods and situations.
If you think it doesn't or that I was just pulling stuff out of thin air to offend people, then you're an idiot. And a naive one at that.
Show me how that is racist, exactly? Did I say anywhere in the "diatribe" that "this is what all minorities do anyway, so..." or in any way pull something out of thin air and not refer to things that actually DO happen, HAVE happened and that I KNOW FOR A FACT have happened to people I know?
Stuff that I've seen and know about firsthand, and have heard STRAIGHT from the mouths of people I actually know.
So, until you KNOW me and know those around me, who I have as friends, who I work with, who I've spent hours just hanging out and talking about this very thing, you slapping "racist" on it is a bit over-the-top and jumping the gun. Not to mention that it PISSES ME OFF.
That's why I say it so stridently because I already know and I've already heard it. And it's been told to ME.
When a friend tells me one night in my kitchen "I don't want to be another nigger on the street...fück all that!", what am I supposed to say? Ding him for using the "n" word? He's BLACK! He can use it all day if he wants. Get on to him for not really "knowing how it is"? It's HIS damn life and story! If he's SEEN some of his friends and relatives go down that road, then WTF? If he feels like sharing that with me, then I can sure as hell repeat it here and not be saddled with one of your bullshit labels just because it might sound a bit coarse to you.
Tough. Don't read it. But I'm doing nothing wrong because it's stuff I've already been told and am aware of. By better, more honest people than you.
All the things I say above that you idiotically classify as a "racist diatribe" are all the things he - and others - have sat and TOLD me over the years. They've seen brothers, sisters, cousins, step-siblings, friends, neighbors, etc. exhibit one or more of those things (drugs, guns, fathering kids out of wedlock, dismissing education, getting involved with crime, etc.).
Brace yourself: IT GOES ON. It's actually been known to happen!
:eek:
They didn't want that kind of life. They chose to do the things I say above (stay in school, take it seriously, put up with the mockery and name-calling, resist the temptations of drugs, guns, crime, etc.). They knew it would be a dead-end life and they didn't want it.
I attended a funeral at 13 years of age of some guy who was a cousin of a kid I was in scouts with because - you guessed it - this guy got himself hooked up into this stuff and got shot and killed in East Chattanooga at 22 years of age.
I was one of four white people there, adult or child. If I'm such a flaming racist, what in the hell was I doing at a funeral for some guy I didn't even know...other than just because my friend from Scouts was sad and invited a couple of his scout buddies there? My first time in a black church, black funeral, etc. Second time ever seeing a dead body. But I went because he was my friend and he was burying his cousin. It never occurred to me NOT to go.
Yeah, real "racist" sentiments I'm harboring.
When it gets right down to it, you really don't know a goddamn thing about it because you see a list of possible pitfalls rattled off that could very well affect the lives of a minority, and the best you can think to do is IMMEDIATELY assume the worst and go "ooo...RACISM!"
You don't know me. You don't know anything about it.
Learn the facts before you start throwing that word around.
you know, it's funny, i've seen this time and again.
people who hang out with friends who aren't white get labeled as racists all the time by people who don't.
why? because you learn to relax the paranoia about racism when you're around people on a daily basis and live through it. you learn to joke about it or it will drive you nuts.
you also find out that a lot of stereotypes exist for a reason.
i don't know...i'm an old white guy but i love AA....i grew up poor from a "broken" family, rasised by my mom when my alcoholic dad moved on....lived in poor neighborhoods, which means that when i lived in southern california i was living in a mostly hispanic neighborhood...and when i was living in berkeley i was living in a mostly black neighborhood...went to malcolm x elementry in berkeley....had many best friends growing up who were "of color"...and many did great and are smart and strong and doing well...but i have seen the differences first hand of how they and i are treated...i have never had a door closed in my face, never had car doors lock because i was standing by a curb, never had people cross the street because i was walking toward them....so i was poor and white and still had every opportunity opened to me...sure it was harder sometimes than the rich kids i knew, but always easier than the black and hispanic kids i knew...i hope it is better now, but AA helped get us to the place we are now and we still have a ways to go...would it hurt me if my kid didn't get into the school she wanted? sure, because it would be hard on her. but would it make me mad? no, because she would go to her second school or third...doors will open easily for my kids....i hope the same can truthfully and honestly be said for all kids one day....g
<strong>you know, it's funny, i've seen this time and again.
people who hang out with friends who aren't white get labeled as racists all the time by people who don't.
why? because you learn to relax the paranoia about racism when you're around people on a daily basis and live through it. you learn to joke about it or it will drive you nuts.
you also find out that a lot of stereotypes exist for a reason.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that's totally it, alcimedes. Good call. That's EXACTLY what happens here. It's happened to me on a number of occasions and I feel like I'm put into this stupid position of having to prove I'm not something.
REALLY irritating, especially since the people insinuating these things have no clue or idea about who I am, who I spend time with and talk to, who's over at my place, I'm over at their's, etc.
It's funny: I can talk like a normal person, back and forth, joke, make little comments (and RECEIVE them as well) from friends of mine who aren't white and there's NEVER a cross word or any friction. NEVER...not once. No stupid, baseless charges of "racism" or any of that. It's just buddies hanging out, talking about things and not being afraid to just talk. No dodging around, pussyfooting over PC terminology, trying to figure out exactly how to word something so you won't offend someone who probably wouldn't be offended anyway, etc.
The ONLY time I get accused of crap like above from bunge is when I'm HERE...and it's usually some WHITE guy with his panties in a nervous knot telling ME what's "racist" or whatever. Some overzealous, never-hung-around-anyone-else-but-other-white-people dimwit who, in the interest of appearing "tolerant" and embracing diversity, sees potential racism everywhere he looks and likes to call it out to earn points I suppose (in case anyone is keeping score?).
Bug off.
If I can talk about this stuff and say the EXACT same thing I said in my earlier "racist" post and not one of my non-white friends bats an eye or says I'm out of line (and we can sit and talk about this type of stuff for hours with NO ONE getting their back up or getting defensive) then I certainly shouldn't care about what some hand-wringing, hyper PC white guy(s) on a computer message forum had to say about it, huh?
Hmm...words to live by.
It's actually sometimes very easy to tell sometimes who DOESN'T hang around other races and ethnicities. Overly sensitive to what THEY feel is racist or in questionable taste or whatever. 9 out of 10 times, they don't have the first idea about what constitutes what because they're so caught up in knowing the latest PC phrasing or terminology and not "stepping on toes".
Well guess what? It's not about you. You don't get to make that call. If it doesn't bother my friends then it really shouldn't bother you, bunge (and others).
Well guess what? It's not about you. You don't get to make that call. If it doesn't bother my friends then it really shouldn't bother you, bunge (and others).
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Interesting definition of racism you've got there.
Ever seen Chris Rock do his act about black people versus niggers? All the stuff you talk about applies to his definition of nigger, but AA applies to black people. If you're claiming all black people are niggers then I think you're being racist.
Whether your friends think so is another matter, because being racist or not is a shades of gray thing that changes over time and across people.
When nice liberal people a hundred odd years ago thought that blacks weren't capable of being scientists or whatever, they didn't think they were racists. The racists in those days were saying that black people were animals and a quick vox pop of the black population would probably find most incredulous at the thought of black scientists.
The same is true for women not being allowed in fast cars (going over 20mph) in case of hysteria (which comes from a root word meaning womb). Many women would have agreed with this nonsense.
The point is that it is not a question of racists on one side and non-racists on the other. Making it into a black and white issue (no pun intended) doesn't really help communication.
It is more appropriate to think of people being racist in the same way that people are angry. Only if you do it a lot of the time, or to some great degree do you become classed as a racist/angry person.
What no AA person here addresses is what happens after you are admitted to a school. The top level schools that admit students under these AA programs typically have dropout rates of over 50%. The graduation rate goes up dramatically when these students are better matched to schools where the competition isn't so fierce that the only option is to sink or swim.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the pro AA people are more aware of the problems of AA than they are being given credit for. The reason they don't want to get drawn into such a conversation is that the public pronouncements of many people seeking to abolish AA are obviously designed to appeal to racists and those who hate the thought of black people getting one over on them.
Many of these people are smart enough to use reasonable sounding complaints against AA while being unreasonable about its aims and benefits.
Furthermore the bile is plainly visible in many attacks on AA and so it is obvious that no replacement measures or schemes will be put in place.
You yourself quoted an article that claimed that even with millions spent on alternatives the uptake was set back four years, and even more at the top end.
Life isn't a sprint, it is a marathon and getting someone into the starting blocks doesn't tell me how they will finish in the race. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Getting them into decent elementary schools would be the starting blocks. It's not enough. More help is needed along the way until our society is better able to integrate.
I think the pro AA people are more aware of the problems of AA than they are being given credit for. The reason they don't want to get drawn into such a conversation is that the public pronouncements of many people seeking to abolish AA are obviously designed to appeal to racists and those who hate the thought of black people getting one over on them.
Many of these people are smart enough to use reasonable sounding complaints against AA while being unreasonable about its aims and benefits.
Furthermore the bile is plainly visible in many attacks on AA and so it is obvious that no replacement measures or schemes will be put in place.
You yourself quoted an article that claimed that even with millions spent on alternatives the uptake was set back four years, and even more at the top end.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It wasn't setback. It was matched to its all time previous high level within 4 years, and at all but the top two most elite campuses the levels of students admitted were at all time highs. All of this happened without affirmative action.
If you will look into this also any declines weren't caused by schools not admitting the students. It was typically caused by fewer applicants or fewer students of color electing to attend the school.
Again in California we personally saw this. You had "community leaders" telling kids not to attend schools that didn't have affirmative action so that they could show a drop in enrollment and declare that they were racist. If you look at the statistics there isn't just a drop in enrollment, there is a drop in actual applications.
Now understand that when the levels returned to what they had previously been that it wasn't just numbers it was percents. That really says something because it means they accounted not only for the surpassing the number of students previously attended, but matched all the population and student growth as well to get it to the same level it was with affirmative action.
And for the final time people not supporting AA doesn't equal racism. In my view people supporting AA are racist because it seems the last thing they want to do is judge by content of character. The reason they don't want to discuss it is it shows the same kind of checkbook compassion they always display. Otherwise they would focus on graduation rates instead of enrollment rates.
I mean you want to discuss something that would appeal to racists, how about 50+% of of AA accepted students dropping out without a degree? If anything that would allow the wannabe compassionate me to say I did my best and still leave them in a hole.
Meanwhile students admitted under the same criteria as everyone else and routed to campuses where they can be competitive, graduate, don't feel inferior and lastly and most importantly actually improve their lives instead of just being a statistic someone reels off.
So, until you KNOW me and know those around me, who I have as friends, who I work with, who I've spent hours just hanging out and talking about this very thing, you slapping "racist" on it is a bit over-the-top and jumping the gun. Not to mention that it PISSES ME OFF. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad it pisses you off since that was basically the point of your racist diatribe in the first place.
Exactly. Getting them into decent elementary schools would be the starting blocks. It's not enough. More help is needed along the way until our society is better able to integrate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey I know about those elementary schools. I work at one of them.
I assure you that the factors keeping those kids down are largely created within that community. Others such as language are very hard to address and aren't helped by any sort of reluctance to learn English.
Regardless of where you are born, you choose your own values. This is true of all communities.
You make a good case for a state being able to grow out of the need for AA, and that's everybody's wish. But how do you handle the states, and areas of even your state, that haven't laid the necessary groundwork to be able to remove AA?
You make a good case for a state being able to grow out of the need for AA, and that's everybody's wish. But how do you handle the states, and areas of even your state, that haven't laid the necessary groundwork to be able to remove AA?
We didn't grow out of it. It was effectively done with two votes, one by the UC system and one by Proposition 209.
Prop 209 was pushed by Ward Connerly who was the head of the board of regents for the UC system so effectively he lead both votes. (Talk about one man being able to make a difference huh?)
Prop 209 quoted the exact text of the 1964 Civil Rights act and wrote it into the state constitution.
It was called racist by just about every community leader of color. The actual text of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was called racist.
Here is the core of it.
SEC. 31. (a) The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
Aside from this we moved to assistance by economic need. We passed a proposal guaranteeing acceptance to the top n% of each high school (though I don't know that percent) though they weren't guaranteed which UC campus they would attend. The complaints were that while they wouldn't get into UCLA or Berkley they would still get into UC Riverside and Irvine.(Where again the graduation rates for those same students were much better)
However even with all that the complaints were focused on the top two schools of the top tier university system in the state. If you were to look at the CSU system and community college system they are already profoundly diverse. I would wager that CSU Dominguez Hills where I received my teaching credential is the most diverse campus in the state.
Diversity as a whole is advancing. Most of the time the critics have to find an obscure example to try to effect change across an entire system and try to establish quotas, points, etc. A popular tactic is to hit a law or medical school on a university campus because the university as a whole is already very diverse.
If anything George W (which is why we started this thread) is proof of the path these students themselves might take. They might not get into their first choice school but they will get into a university. Not getting the first option didn't kill them and perhaps put them someplace where the result was still better for them.
They will get their degrees go onto life and have their successes and failures just like everyone else. They will learn to play to their strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else. Those who persist and continue to plug away will undoubtly find a way to be successful.
Comments
<strong>
Well, I don't know. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well judging by your racist diatribe you really DON'T know! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>
But university officials, reporting the figures this week, mainly attribute the minority gains to several new programs: investment of hundreds of millions of dollars to improve public schools in poor neighborhoods; outreach to high schools that do not traditionally send many students to the University of California; the automatic admission
of students who rank in the top 4 percent of every state high school; and a scholarship for high school students who graduate with at least a
B average. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This has been discussed very recently, and no anti-AA person here cares to tackle the subject. AA needs to be in combination with funding for schools and other similar programs. If you have one and not the other, the situation is flawed.
If we only have quotas, the flawed system will continue to produce underachieving students and quotas will remain necessary.
If you only fix the flawed system, you'll have several decades of screwed students & employees.
If you use both fixes, both problems are covered.
So, for those that want to kill AA, how to you serve the people that have been constitutionally raped? We're all willing to fund schools (hypothetically speaking), but the current generation of fsck-ed students need a solution. What to you propose? Still nothing?
<strong>
This has been discussed very recently, and no anti-AA person here cares to tackle the subject. AA needs to be in combination with funding for schools and other similar programs. If you have one and not the other, the situation is flawed.
If we only have quotas, the flawed system will continue to produce underachieving students and quotas will remain necessary.
If you only fix the flawed system, you'll have several decades of screwed students & employees.
If you use both fixes, both problems are covered.
So, for those that want to kill AA, how to you serve the people that have been constitutionally raped? We're all willing to fund schools (hypothetically speaking), but the current generation of fsck-ed students need a solution. What to you propose? Still nothing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Little strong on the rhetoric there don't ya think? Constitutionally raped? What are they after the 14th and 15th amendment then? Constitutionally counseled?
First of all, even as a teacher I would remind you that college education is not the end all be all of the universe. Even 4 out of 5 white people don't have college degrees and most of them certainly aren't "f*cked."
What I believe these outreach services are really doing would be considered by some cultural imperialism. They are literally changing the culture and attitudes about education within these communities.
The point is that race was eliminated and solutions were sought for students who underachieve regardless of race. With these programs in place the percentages for under-represented minorities were back to the previous levels within 5 years. That certainly is less than a generation and it certainly isn't several decades as you asserted.
And again we aren't talking about all colleges, we are only talking about the top two UC schools and the UC system in general where enrollment fell. For the overall UC system, enrollment remained the same and plenty of campuses saw gains.
If you want a degree you will find a way. There are extension courses, community college, night school, online courses.
It is probably easier to get access to a college than ever before. If you want to fret about an Ivy League school or the top 1% schools that is another matter. However not getting a degree from that particular school doesnt mean you are screwed for life. I have NEVER been asked all the silly things people worry about on here in real life. I have never been asked my SAT scores, GPA or even where my degree was from. I had the requirements and the skills so it was never a problem.
What no AA person here addresses is what happens after you are admitted to a school. The top level schools that admit students under these AA programs typically have dropout rates of over 50%. The graduation rate goes up dramatically when these students are better matched to schools where the competition isn't so fierce that the only option is to sink or swim.
Life isn't a sprint, it is a marathon and getting someone into the starting blocks doesn't tell me how they will finish in the race.
Nick
[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
<strong>
Well judging by your racist diatribe you really DON'T know! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
You're wrong. I really DO know. Why don't you read and learn (so you won't make hasty, idiotic judgements about me in the future):
ShawnPatrick asked (perhaps rhetorically) "how would minorities advance without affirmative action?"
They would do what everyone else does, I suppose. And since Shawn specifically asked about "minorities" (which, last I checked, are affected by AA, otherwise we wouldn't be TALKING ABOUT IT, WOULD WE?), even though everything I spoke about can apply to anyone.
Hey, I included MYSELF in there, didn't I? Speaking about how I didn't want to be punished or disappoint my family by not towing the line and doing my best in school? That's pretty universal (I think I even said THAT also).
But since the thread is about AA and since Shawn said "minorities", my "diatribe" (yeah...) kinda talks about some of the roads that maybe face minorities in less-than-ideal neighborhoods and situations.
If you think it doesn't or that I was just pulling stuff out of thin air to offend people, then you're an idiot. And a naive one at that.
Show me how that is racist, exactly? Did I say anywhere in the "diatribe" that "this is what all minorities do anyway, so..." or in any way pull something out of thin air and not refer to things that actually DO happen, HAVE happened and that I KNOW FOR A FACT have happened to people I know?
Stuff that I've seen and know about firsthand, and have heard STRAIGHT from the mouths of people I actually know.
So, until you KNOW me and know those around me, who I have as friends, who I work with, who I've spent hours just hanging out and talking about this very thing, you slapping "racist" on it is a bit over-the-top and jumping the gun. Not to mention that it PISSES ME OFF.
That's why I say it so stridently because I already know and I've already heard it. And it's been told to ME.
When a friend tells me one night in my kitchen "I don't want to be another nigger on the street...fück all that!", what am I supposed to say? Ding him for using the "n" word? He's BLACK! He can use it all day if he wants. Get on to him for not really "knowing how it is"? It's HIS damn life and story! If he's SEEN some of his friends and relatives go down that road, then WTF? If he feels like sharing that with me, then I can sure as hell repeat it here and not be saddled with one of your bullshit labels just because it might sound a bit coarse to you.
Tough. Don't read it. But I'm doing nothing wrong because it's stuff I've already been told and am aware of. By better, more honest people than you.
All the things I say above that you idiotically classify as a "racist diatribe" are all the things he - and others - have sat and TOLD me over the years. They've seen brothers, sisters, cousins, step-siblings, friends, neighbors, etc. exhibit one or more of those things (drugs, guns, fathering kids out of wedlock, dismissing education, getting involved with crime, etc.).
Brace yourself: IT GOES ON. It's actually been known to happen!
:eek:
They didn't want that kind of life. They chose to do the things I say above (stay in school, take it seriously, put up with the mockery and name-calling, resist the temptations of drugs, guns, crime, etc.). They knew it would be a dead-end life and they didn't want it.
I attended a funeral at 13 years of age of some guy who was a cousin of a kid I was in scouts with because - you guessed it - this guy got himself hooked up into this stuff and got shot and killed in East Chattanooga at 22 years of age.
I was one of four white people there, adult or child. If I'm such a flaming racist, what in the hell was I doing at a funeral for some guy I didn't even know...other than just because my friend from Scouts was sad and invited a couple of his scout buddies there? My first time in a black church, black funeral, etc. Second time ever seeing a dead body. But I went because he was my friend and he was burying his cousin. It never occurred to me NOT to go.
Yeah, real "racist" sentiments I'm harboring.
When it gets right down to it, you really don't know a goddamn thing about it because you see a list of possible pitfalls rattled off that could very well affect the lives of a minority, and the best you can think to do is IMMEDIATELY assume the worst and go "ooo...RACISM!"
You don't know me. You don't know anything about it.
Learn the facts before you start throwing that word around.
people who hang out with friends who aren't white get labeled as racists all the time by people who don't.
why? because you learn to relax the paranoia about racism when you're around people on a daily basis and live through it. you learn to joke about it or it will drive you nuts.
you also find out that a lot of stereotypes exist for a reason.
*writes angry letter to Faulkner*
<strong>you know, it's funny, i've seen this time and again.
people who hang out with friends who aren't white get labeled as racists all the time by people who don't.
why? because you learn to relax the paranoia about racism when you're around people on a daily basis and live through it. you learn to joke about it or it will drive you nuts.
you also find out that a lot of stereotypes exist for a reason.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that's totally it, alcimedes. Good call. That's EXACTLY what happens here. It's happened to me on a number of occasions and I feel like I'm put into this stupid position of having to prove I'm not something.
REALLY irritating, especially since the people insinuating these things have no clue or idea about who I am, who I spend time with and talk to, who's over at my place, I'm over at their's, etc.
It's funny: I can talk like a normal person, back and forth, joke, make little comments (and RECEIVE them as well) from friends of mine who aren't white and there's NEVER a cross word or any friction. NEVER...not once. No stupid, baseless charges of "racism" or any of that. It's just buddies hanging out, talking about things and not being afraid to just talk. No dodging around, pussyfooting over PC terminology, trying to figure out exactly how to word something so you won't offend someone who probably wouldn't be offended anyway, etc.
The ONLY time I get accused of crap like above from bunge is when I'm HERE...and it's usually some WHITE guy with his panties in a nervous knot telling ME what's "racist" or whatever. Some overzealous, never-hung-around-anyone-else-but-other-white-people dimwit who, in the interest of appearing "tolerant" and embracing diversity, sees potential racism everywhere he looks and likes to call it out to earn points I suppose (in case anyone is keeping score?).
Bug off.
If I can talk about this stuff and say the EXACT same thing I said in my earlier "racist" post and not one of my non-white friends bats an eye or says I'm out of line (and we can sit and talk about this type of stuff for hours with NO ONE getting their back up or getting defensive) then I certainly shouldn't care about what some hand-wringing, hyper PC white guy(s) on a computer message forum had to say about it, huh?
Hmm...words to live by.
It's actually sometimes very easy to tell sometimes who DOESN'T hang around other races and ethnicities. Overly sensitive to what THEY feel is racist or in questionable taste or whatever. 9 out of 10 times, they don't have the first idea about what constitutes what because they're so caught up in knowing the latest PC phrasing or terminology and not "stepping on toes".
Well guess what? It's not about you. You don't get to make that call. If it doesn't bother my friends then it really shouldn't bother you, bunge (and others).
<strong>
Well guess what? It's not about you. You don't get to make that call. If it doesn't bother my friends then it really shouldn't bother you, bunge (and others).
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Interesting definition of racism you've got there.
Ever seen Chris Rock do his act about black people versus niggers? All the stuff you talk about applies to his definition of nigger, but AA applies to black people. If you're claiming all black people are niggers then I think you're being racist.
Whether your friends think so is another matter, because being racist or not is a shades of gray thing that changes over time and across people.
When nice liberal people a hundred odd years ago thought that blacks weren't capable of being scientists or whatever, they didn't think they were racists. The racists in those days were saying that black people were animals and a quick vox pop of the black population would probably find most incredulous at the thought of black scientists.
The same is true for women not being allowed in fast cars (going over 20mph) in case of hysteria (which comes from a root word meaning womb). Many women would have agreed with this nonsense.
The point is that it is not a question of racists on one side and non-racists on the other. Making it into a black and white issue (no pun intended) doesn't really help communication.
It is more appropriate to think of people being racist in the same way that people are angry. Only if you do it a lot of the time, or to some great degree do you become classed as a racist/angry person.
<strong>
What no AA person here addresses is what happens after you are admitted to a school. The top level schools that admit students under these AA programs typically have dropout rates of over 50%. The graduation rate goes up dramatically when these students are better matched to schools where the competition isn't so fierce that the only option is to sink or swim.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the pro AA people are more aware of the problems of AA than they are being given credit for. The reason they don't want to get drawn into such a conversation is that the public pronouncements of many people seeking to abolish AA are obviously designed to appeal to racists and those who hate the thought of black people getting one over on them.
Many of these people are smart enough to use reasonable sounding complaints against AA while being unreasonable about its aims and benefits.
Furthermore the bile is plainly visible in many attacks on AA and so it is obvious that no replacement measures or schemes will be put in place.
You yourself quoted an article that claimed that even with millions spent on alternatives the uptake was set back four years, and even more at the top end.
Teh best argument evar!1!
<strong>
Life isn't a sprint, it is a marathon and getting someone into the starting blocks doesn't tell me how they will finish in the race. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Getting them into decent elementary schools would be the starting blocks. It's not enough. More help is needed along the way until our society is better able to integrate.
<strong>
I think the pro AA people are more aware of the problems of AA than they are being given credit for. The reason they don't want to get drawn into such a conversation is that the public pronouncements of many people seeking to abolish AA are obviously designed to appeal to racists and those who hate the thought of black people getting one over on them.
Many of these people are smart enough to use reasonable sounding complaints against AA while being unreasonable about its aims and benefits.
Furthermore the bile is plainly visible in many attacks on AA and so it is obvious that no replacement measures or schemes will be put in place.
You yourself quoted an article that claimed that even with millions spent on alternatives the uptake was set back four years, and even more at the top end.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It wasn't setback. It was matched to its all time previous high level within 4 years, and at all but the top two most elite campuses the levels of students admitted were at all time highs. All of this happened without affirmative action.
If you will look into this also any declines weren't caused by schools not admitting the students. It was typically caused by fewer applicants or fewer students of color electing to attend the school.
Again in California we personally saw this. You had "community leaders" telling kids not to attend schools that didn't have affirmative action so that they could show a drop in enrollment and declare that they were racist. If you look at the statistics there isn't just a drop in enrollment, there is a drop in actual applications.
Now understand that when the levels returned to what they had previously been that it wasn't just numbers it was percents. That really says something because it means they accounted not only for the surpassing the number of students previously attended, but matched all the population and student growth as well to get it to the same level it was with affirmative action.
And for the final time people not supporting AA doesn't equal racism. In my view people supporting AA are racist because it seems the last thing they want to do is judge by content of character. The reason they don't want to discuss it is it shows the same kind of checkbook compassion they always display. Otherwise they would focus on graduation rates instead of enrollment rates.
I mean you want to discuss something that would appeal to racists, how about 50+% of of AA accepted students dropping out without a degree? If anything that would allow the wannabe compassionate me to say I did my best and still leave them in a hole.
Meanwhile students admitted under the same criteria as everyone else and routed to campuses where they can be competitive, graduate, don't feel inferior and lastly and most importantly actually improve their lives instead of just being a statistic someone reels off.
Nick
<strong>
So, until you KNOW me and know those around me, who I have as friends, who I work with, who I've spent hours just hanging out and talking about this very thing, you slapping "racist" on it is a bit over-the-top and jumping the gun. Not to mention that it PISSES ME OFF. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad it pisses you off since that was basically the point of your racist diatribe in the first place.
<strong>"But I have black friends."
Teh best argument evar!1!</strong><hr></blockquote>
You dont support my position so you're an evil racist!!!
Best rebuttal ever!!!
<strong>...you learn to relax the paranoia about racism when you're around people on a daily basis and live through it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh I understand that completely. I'm the one that argued with scott that using the word nigger wasn't racist in and of itself.
That was a bit of a backwards thread.
And no pscates, I'm not a 'hand wringing PC' whatever it was you said. If it makes you feel any better I can't use the phrase 'African American'.
Read what stupider says about Chris Rock. It applies very accurately to your original diatribe.
<strong>
Exactly. Getting them into decent elementary schools would be the starting blocks. It's not enough. More help is needed along the way until our society is better able to integrate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey I know about those elementary schools. I work at one of them.
I assure you that the factors keeping those kids down are largely created within that community. Others such as language are very hard to address and aren't helped by any sort of reluctance to learn English.
Regardless of where you are born, you choose your own values. This is true of all communities.
Nick
You make a good case for a state being able to grow out of the need for AA, and that's everybody's wish. But how do you handle the states, and areas of even your state, that haven't laid the necessary groundwork to be able to remove AA?
EDIT: Simultaneous posting is confusing.
[ 01-28-2003: Message edited by: bunge ]</p>
<strong>Nick,
You make a good case for a state being able to grow out of the need for AA, and that's everybody's wish. But how do you handle the states, and areas of even your state, that haven't laid the necessary groundwork to be able to remove AA?
EDIT: Simultaneous posting is confusing.
[ 01-28-2003: Message edited by: bunge ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
We didn't grow out of it. It was effectively done with two votes, one by the UC system and one by Proposition 209.
Prop 209 was pushed by Ward Connerly who was the head of the board of regents for the UC system so effectively he lead both votes. (Talk about one man being able to make a difference huh?)
Prop 209 quoted the exact text of the 1964 Civil Rights act and wrote it into the state constitution.
It was called racist by just about every community leader of color. The actual text of the 1964 Civil Rights Act was called racist.
Here is the core of it.
SEC. 31. (a) The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
Aside from this we moved to assistance by economic need. We passed a proposal guaranteeing acceptance to the top n% of each high school (though I don't know that percent) though they weren't guaranteed which UC campus they would attend. The complaints were that while they wouldn't get into UCLA or Berkley they would still get into UC Riverside and Irvine.(Where again the graduation rates for those same students were much better)
However even with all that the complaints were focused on the top two schools of the top tier university system in the state. If you were to look at the CSU system and community college system they are already profoundly diverse. I would wager that CSU Dominguez Hills where I received my teaching credential is the most diverse campus in the state.
Diversity as a whole is advancing. Most of the time the critics have to find an obscure example to try to effect change across an entire system and try to establish quotas, points, etc. A popular tactic is to hit a law or medical school on a university campus because the university as a whole is already very diverse.
If anything George W (which is why we started this thread) is proof of the path these students themselves might take. They might not get into their first choice school but they will get into a university. Not getting the first option didn't kill them and perhaps put them someplace where the result was still better for them.
They will get their degrees go onto life and have their successes and failures just like everyone else. They will learn to play to their strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else. Those who persist and continue to plug away will undoubtly find a way to be successful.
Nick