Yes. Anyone can unlock their iPhones using means of possibly questionable provenance, but you also lose your warranty and support. And you don't know if the unlock does things you don't want done to your phone, because it's largely an underground activity.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
It's a shame that the USA doesn't have more GSM-based service providers. If they did, you'd see some awfully nice deals, both in terms of extended contracts and rolling month to month and even PAYG deals.
Here in the UK, O2 and 3 have terrific sim-only deals for iPhone.
I was just doing some poking about for sim-only offers, and found GiffGaff. I would be on that service in a heartbeat if they offered it in the States. $16 for 250 minutes talk and unlimited data? That's all I need.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
Well, since 1.0.2. We didn't even have Hactivations on Day One.
Day five's a different story. Ahh... good times. Had to do it through the Terminal back then. You kids don't know how easy you have it [/oldtimer]
You mean overseas? This is for us customers who travel outside the country a lot? Can't anyone unlock their phone anyways now?
Overseas?? Dude.. want me to send you a map?? Just go south and you will find 20+ with GSM networks ready. Sin card goes around 1 to 5 dollars. Some small data packages for $10.
Then... do you forget that unlocks get break with updates, reset of the phones??? Unlocking your iPhone void Apple warranty.
An unlocked iPhone has so many advantages. They will sell quite good now. Saving for mine
I'm not sure what Europe is like, I haven't been there for many years now, but in all of the USA and Canada cell companies operate like an oligarchy or cartel and have for many many years now.
For some reason, even though the USA is the "land of the free" and rabidly capitalist, this anti-comptetitive collusion/price-fixing is considered a good thing.
I think there is a difference between being in denial and pretending collusion is a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
There have been unlocks for every model since a few months after the original. The quality of a given unlock seems to vary, and most people don't have the ability to know whether there's any funny business going on, so picking the best one can be a bit tough. It's still something of an underground activity.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
Have you unlocked at least a single one??? Each update you have to wait for a new version of the unlock and avoid update in iTunes and boy..... lot of people forgets and they update, loose the jailbreak and can't use the phone for a while. Funny you are telling that to Jeff lmao!
I was told I was a total idiot for suggesting that if Apple ever sold an unlocked phone in the US, it would be about $600 or so, even if you could jailbreak them. In that respect, it's nice to see that I wasn't wrong about the price. I'm glad I don't need this.
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
Why is it so expensive? Shouldn't it be priced around a similar sized iPod Touch + the telephony components??
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
It is great if you want to use just Wi-Fi, which I currently use. So, I don't pay a data plan. I am on T-Mobile with a 3GS iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I was told I was a total idiot for suggesting that if Apple ever sold an unlocked phone in the US, it would be about $600 or so, even if you could jailbreak them. In that respect, it's nice to see that I wasn't wrong about the price. I'm glad I don't need this. Maybe I would get one if I got a discount on the service, but I don't see that happening, especially now that the other major US GSM service is probably going to merge with AT&T.
Yes, but you have more options. I am not tied into data and don't need it. That saves me over thirty dollars a month. That is a savings of $720.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
Yes, they have, but it isn't super easy and you often have to wait. It is also risky because if the break doesn't work.
QUOTE=paxman;1882103]Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.[/QUOTE]
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
It does seem a bit much, I agree on that. There are inexpensive unlocked Android phones if one were so inclined, I really haven't compared them to the iPhone 4.
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
Expensive for a phone that is 2-3 months from being obsolete.
It will be interesting to see if Apple offers a single world phone that also has T-Mobiles frequency for the iPhone 5. Even if T-Mobile cant stomach the prices through subsidizing, there would be consumers who would easily dump the 650 on an unlocked device if it meant using it on any carrier.
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
Not from around here, are you.
What you are missing is that in the US, if you buy the unlocked phone you are paying twice. First, you pay the full price for the phone. Then you pay the full price (ie, the same price as somone who got the phone for $450 less), for the service plan (aka, tariff).
In your normal/locked scenario, Apple gets it's $20/month and ATT get it's $20 a month (excluding data and texting).
In the unlocked scenario, Apple gets it's $480 upfront, but you still pay ATT $40/month and they keep it all instead of giving $20 to Apple. It's actually quite a bonanza for ATT, the only risk being that you don't stick with them for the full 24 months. But in the US, where else are you going to go?
The only reason it works is be too many of my fellow Americans are too cheap and/or short sighted that all we focus on is the initial upfront cost. So subsidized phones look like a great deal. If there were more people willing to buy unlocked phones, there'd be a bigger market for the carriers to compete by offering discounted service plans for non-subsidized phones.
The other annoying thing is that carriers are really "double-locking" us into their service. First, they only sell locked phones. Second, they make you sign a two-year contract. Why do they need both? Subsidizing an unlocked phone by tying it to a two-year contract is just as effective as locking the phone, especially with the high early termination fees. There's a risk that after the contact ends we'll take our phone to another carrier, but most people get a new phone every two years or so anyway, so it's irrelevent if it can be moved to a new carrier or not.
Maybe once both ATT and Verizon have their LTE networks more fully deployed, and if Apple continues to sell unlocked iPhones of the LTE variety, then we might get a little competition between carriers for earning the business of unlocked iPhone owners. But untiil then, it will have very little effect.
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
The iPhone also has a better screen than the Touch, a larger battery, a much better camera, an ear piece, and proximity sensor to dim the screen when you hold it to your ear. It all starts to add up. Also, the iPad only handles data. Handling voice and/or data, sometimes simultaneously, adds complexity so there may be more to the "cellular" part of the iPhone than there is to the cellular part of an iPad (extra antennas, extra chips, etc).
It may not account for the entire $220 price difference in your example, but it likely accounts for a pretty big chunk of it.
A more interesting comparison is between the iPhone and iPad. Leave the touch out of it as there are too many differences, as noted above.
32 GB unlocked iPhone: $749
32 GB unlocked iPad 3G: $729
That, more than the Touch comparison, suggests that either the unlocked iPhone is very overpriced, or the iPad is very aggressively priced (or both).
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
Its not the same, what about the bezel, design, research and development, marketing, licenses, etc
Wont be the same never, also you can not buy those component at retail. iFixit tear downs state an approximate of the price in bulk that apple gets from the provider (millions of those parts) it could be less or higher price.
Just think how long took design the bezel then start adding the aluminium blocks, the special CNC machines Apple designed, made build and placed at factories, all theses things comes more expensive compared to the ipod touch more simple design and cheaper materials.
Why is it so expensive? Shouldn't it be priced around a similar sized iPod Touch + the telephony components??
No, a product should be priced at a level that allows you to sell all units you are able to produce. As long as Apple can sell a product with 60% product margins and has trouble keeping up with production for the good part of a year, it is not priced too high.
Naturally, it helps a lot if people don't realise that you have a 60% product margin, and the non-explicit carrier subsidy does a great job of hiding the fact that Apple's product margin on the iPhone is much higher than on the iPod touch.
That, more than the Touch comparison, suggests that either the unlocked iPhone is very overpriced, or the iPad is very aggressively priced (or both).
I'd say both (note how much difficulty other manufacturers have to match the iPad price) and note how much Apple's profits have increased since the success of the iPhone.
Comments
Yes. Anyone can unlock their iPhones using means of possibly questionable provenance, but you also lose your warranty and support. And you don't know if the unlock does things you don't want done to your phone, because it's largely an underground activity.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
It's a shame that the USA doesn't have more GSM-based service providers. If they did, you'd see some awfully nice deals, both in terms of extended contracts and rolling month to month and even PAYG deals.
Here in the UK, O2 and 3 have terrific sim-only deals for iPhone.
I was just doing some poking about for sim-only offers, and found GiffGaff. I would be on that service in a heartbeat if they offered it in the States. $16 for 250 minutes talk and unlimited data? That's all I need.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
Well, since 1.0.2. We didn't even have Hactivations on Day One.
Day five's a different story. Ahh... good times. Had to do it through the Terminal back then. You kids don't know how easy you have it [/oldtimer]
You mean overseas? This is for us customers who travel outside the country a lot? Can't anyone unlock their phone anyways now?
Overseas?? Dude.. want me to send you a map?? Just go south and you will find 20+ with GSM networks ready. Sin card goes around 1 to 5 dollars. Some small data packages for $10.
Then... do you forget that unlocks get break with updates, reset of the phones??? Unlocking your iPhone void Apple warranty.
An unlocked iPhone has so many advantages. They will sell quite good now. Saving for mine
I'm not sure what Europe is like, I haven't been there for many years now, but in all of the USA and Canada cell companies operate like an oligarchy or cartel and have for many many years now.
For some reason, even though the USA is the "land of the free" and rabidly capitalist, this anti-comptetitive collusion/price-fixing is considered a good thing.
I think there is a difference between being in denial and pretending collusion is a good thing.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
There have been unlocks for every model since a few months after the original. The quality of a given unlock seems to vary, and most people don't have the ability to know whether there's any funny business going on, so picking the best one can be a bit tough. It's still something of an underground activity.
Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.
Have you unlocked at least a single one??? Each update you have to wait for a new version of the unlock and avoid update in iTunes and boy..... lot of people forgets and they update, loose the jailbreak and can't use the phone for a while. Funny you are telling that to Jeff lmao!
I was told I was a total idiot for suggesting that if Apple ever sold an unlocked phone in the US, it would be about $600 or so, even if you could jailbreak them. In that respect, it's nice to see that I wasn't wrong about the price. I'm glad I don't need this.
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
Why is it so expensive? Shouldn't it be priced around a similar sized iPod Touch + the telephony components??
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
I was told I was a total idiot for suggesting that if Apple ever sold an unlocked phone in the US, it would be about $600 or so, even if you could jailbreak them. In that respect, it's nice to see that I wasn't wrong about the price. I'm glad I don't need this. Maybe I would get one if I got a discount on the service, but I don't see that happening, especially now that the other major US GSM service is probably going to merge with AT&T.
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
QUOTE=paxman;1882103]Haven't people been unlocking their phones since day one? Do a google search and you'll be swamped with solutions. I like the idea of http://rebelsimcard.com/ though I have to admit I have never tested it.[/QUOTE]
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
It does seem a bit much, I agree on that. There are inexpensive unlocked Android phones if one were so inclined, I really haven't compared them to the iPhone 4.
It is a bit higher price than the carrier pays to Apple. Main difference is that there is no subsidy. You pay that very same amount in a contract. Just bit by bit. Carriers price after the 2 year contract is about 600 and above depending on model. They will never loose the difference you think you are saving. ($450)
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
It will be interesting to see if Apple offers a single world phone that also has T-Mobiles frequency for the iPhone 5. Even if T-Mobile cant stomach the prices through subsidizing, there would be consumers who would easily dump the 650 on an unlocked device if it meant using it on any carrier.
Thing is, everyone is paying this price. It gets worked into the contract. If you get tied to a 24 month contract and Apple take $20 per month off the tariff, you are paying $480 + $199 to get the phone = $679.
AT&T will get say the remaining $20 from the tariff + $15/m data +$20/m texting = $55/m * 24 = $1320. You don't have to take the texting package but I'm sure a few people would.
It's just an expensive phone, unlocked or not. I don't really see why it is the case though because while the 8GB iPod Touch has some inferior specs, it's way down at $229. I don't see how adding some phone parts and a nice camera adds over $400 to the price.
The sooner manufacturers get the iPod Touch mods that give you a basic phone add-on to an iPod Touch the better.
Not from around here, are you.
What you are missing is that in the US, if you buy the unlocked phone you are paying twice. First, you pay the full price for the phone. Then you pay the full price (ie, the same price as somone who got the phone for $450 less), for the service plan (aka, tariff).
In your normal/locked scenario, Apple gets it's $20/month and ATT get it's $20 a month (excluding data and texting).
In the unlocked scenario, Apple gets it's $480 upfront, but you still pay ATT $40/month and they keep it all instead of giving $20 to Apple. It's actually quite a bonanza for ATT, the only risk being that you don't stick with them for the full 24 months. But in the US, where else are you going to go?
The only reason it works is be too many of my fellow Americans are too cheap and/or short sighted that all we focus on is the initial upfront cost. So subsidized phones look like a great deal. If there were more people willing to buy unlocked phones, there'd be a bigger market for the carriers to compete by offering discounted service plans for non-subsidized phones.
The other annoying thing is that carriers are really "double-locking" us into their service. First, they only sell locked phones. Second, they make you sign a two-year contract. Why do they need both? Subsidizing an unlocked phone by tying it to a two-year contract is just as effective as locking the phone, especially with the high early termination fees. There's a risk that after the contact ends we'll take our phone to another carrier, but most people get a new phone every two years or so anyway, so it's irrelevent if it can be moved to a new carrier or not.
Maybe once both ATT and Verizon have their LTE networks more fully deployed, and if Apple continues to sell unlocked iPhones of the LTE variety, then we might get a little competition between carriers for earning the business of unlocked iPhone owners. But untiil then, it will have very little effect.
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
The iPhone also has a better screen than the Touch, a larger battery, a much better camera, an ear piece, and proximity sensor to dim the screen when you hold it to your ear. It all starts to add up. Also, the iPad only handles data. Handling voice and/or data, sometimes simultaneously, adds complexity so there may be more to the "cellular" part of the iPhone than there is to the cellular part of an iPad (extra antennas, extra chips, etc).
It may not account for the entire $220 price difference in your example, but it likely accounts for a pretty big chunk of it.
A more interesting comparison is between the iPhone and iPad. Leave the touch out of it as there are too many differences, as noted above.
32 GB unlocked iPhone: $749
32 GB unlocked iPad 3G: $729
That, more than the Touch comparison, suggests that either the unlocked iPhone is very overpriced, or the iPad is very aggressively priced (or both).
You are missing my point. Isn't the iPhone an iPod Touch with a telephony component? The telephony component adds approximately $130 retail (based on the costs to add telephony to an iPad 3G) and the 16GB iPod Touch is $299. $299 + $130 = $429.
$649 for essentially the same thing seems very high to me... Carriers or not.
Its not the same, what about the bezel, design, research and development, marketing, licenses, etc
Wont be the same never, also you can not buy those component at retail. iFixit tear downs state an approximate of the price in bulk that apple gets from the provider (millions of those parts) it could be less or higher price.
Just think how long took design the bezel then start adding the aluminium blocks, the special CNC machines Apple designed, made build and placed at factories, all theses things comes more expensive compared to the ipod touch more simple design and cheaper materials.
Why is it so expensive? Shouldn't it be priced around a similar sized iPod Touch + the telephony components??
No, a product should be priced at a level that allows you to sell all units you are able to produce. As long as Apple can sell a product with 60% product margins and has trouble keeping up with production for the good part of a year, it is not priced too high.
Naturally, it helps a lot if people don't realise that you have a 60% product margin, and the non-explicit carrier subsidy does a great job of hiding the fact that Apple's product margin on the iPhone is much higher than on the iPod touch.
32 GB unlocked iPhone: $749
32 GB unlocked iPad 3G: $729
That, more than the Touch comparison, suggests that either the unlocked iPhone is very overpriced, or the iPad is very aggressively priced (or both).
I'd say both (note how much difficulty other manufacturers have to match the iPad price) and note how much Apple's profits have increased since the success of the iPhone.