Basically, you're fvcked because epochs tend to put cultures into either mythic, poetic or rational/scientific periods of development. Our machinery of the state has been telling us that rational-scientific is the way to go, the ideals are secular, democratic, etc etc... fine, but that has never held people for long.
That's the last step before death. In a sense, culture at this level is already dead because its progeny are infertile, there's no place left for us to go and it cannot really contend with the inherent brutality of people (I would say man, but because we're dealing with brutality I will include women) with the same fludity and ease that a mythic or poetic discourse brings.
A wise being would never move beyond the bounds of poetics because only poetics can deal with myth, man, god, and science. It is the Catholic social disposition -- surrounded by higher and lesser reaches. Time and success will tend towards the rational, but if we use the benefits of science we must always be leary of the consequences. Stagnation in the poetic tends to regress back to the mythic, makes us dumb to reality, resistant to knowledge, luddites.
The poetic is always embattled, always, from within and without. Paglia needs to sell papers, promote her own brand -- you need to distrust celebrity academics.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure exactly why you hate Paglia . . . but you should at least trust that I can read her, take from her what I find interesting, and recognize her careerist (to use her term) academic power grabs at the same time.
Its possible to take ideas as interesting without needing to see them as empirical facts or scientific truths . . .perhaps that is the problem with the scientific/rationalist approach
for instance, I found what you said above very interesting, remeniscent, even, of Vico . . . but I would hardly ask for proof
I am not a pessimist when it comes to the possibilities of our culture. . . I tend to take influence from people who are (Heidegger, Nietzsche) but I think that there are other potential thought forms that are just starting to emerge that are neither scientfic/rationalist nor mythic but closer to new forms of the poetic . . .post-scientific/animism .. . . whatever . . . that's an entirely different conversation
But I see that what the world and the West will need to combat is the slide from Rationalism, with its consequent sense of values coming from nowhere but our Subjectivity and therefor not having intrinsic value, to neo-Barbarism: giving into unreflective forms of groupformations based only on force . .. more barbarous then pre-civilization because these forms allready had values and Law and found them meaningsless, in fact, found them as the source of the world's meaninglessness
Fascisms and Fundamentalisms seem to fit this mold: their attitudes almost seek Revenge on the democratic/reason...for clearing the world of its intrinsic bodily value, and saying that we Made values yet we are not in ourselves valuable; humanism is a fable too . .
<strong>Exactly my point: that region has a 'very long memory' as Paglia says, they will not forget so easily the large number of people who will die in this war.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If they're still pisssed about Spain, it's their problem, not mine, not Spain's. I certainly can't take that kind of insane grudge control my thoughts and actions. I can't expect it to control foriegn policy or hold a better future at arm's distance.
I don't think "cogent" can be used to describe someone who doesn't realize that just about EVERY shuttle reentry takes it over Texas, because, duh, that's how you get to Florida.
[quote]Exactly my point: that region has a 'very long memory' as Paglia says, they will not forget so easily the large number of people who will die in this war.<hr></blockquote>
Stupid people really piss me off. If you give people a decent life under a liberal, representative government, with an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and for their children, then maybe, just maybe, they won't spend so much time nursing thousand-year-old grudges. And maybe, just maybe, they won't think the highest goal they can aspire to in life is to blow themselves into a million rat-bite-sized chunks. Is this such a stretch for the liberal mind?
Edit: Oh, she's French. Never mind then. Shoulda guessed.
<strong>Hell they bristle at the word 'Crusade' while most Europeans have no idea who Salladin was . . . and very few care about the history of the Ottomans... except Serb's and Croats</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you sure "they" did or was it just our home-grown handwringers wailing that "they" would?
[quote]<strong>it has nothing to do with truth, its about expediency and group-thought</strong><hr></blockquote>
Religion?
[quote]<strong>it has nothing to do with racism as most people in iraq are as Caucasian as I am . . it has nothing to do with their 'race' but their Culture</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Race" is about culture.
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type
So yeah, it's racism.
Empty and elitist philosophy will get us as far as limp-wristed diplomacy.
You keep saying I am racist because I don't want to invade another country because I think that it will spark reaction and resentment against the US
Look, we aren't even at war yet and it is sparking resentment: [quote] Flogging the French
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
h, for the halcyon days of a year ago, when we fretted about why Arabs hate us. Now the question is: Why does everybody hate us?
The European edition of Time magazine has been conducting a poll on its Web site: "Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003?" With 318,000 votes cast so far, the responses are: North Korea, 7 percent; Iraq, 8 percent; the United States, 84 percent.
O.K., it's just an Internet poll and not worth the pixels it's not printed on. Sure, the Poles and Portuguese may still dance with us. But if there were an extra spot on the axis of evil, the world would vote us in. Somehow, in a year's time, we've become Iraq. <hr></blockquote>
and, to finally get some stats on the rise of significant terrorist activities since 911: I will just quote Cowerd, who originally found the links [quote] Only significant terrorist incident in 2000 was the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen. 17 dead. Apart from India/Pakistan nastiness, and Palestinian/Israeli stuff, no other islamic trouble that can be attributed to Al Qaeda.
Prior to 9/11 in 2001, plane hijack in Yemen with US ambassador on board, all hostages released. Letter bomb to american doctor in Saudi Arabia. Thats it pre-9/11.
The following incidents occured between 9/11/2001 and 12/01/2002:
French tanker in Yemen, American diplomat Foley killed in Jordan, multiple attacks on churches in Pakistan, synagogue truck bomb in Tunisia, car bomb in Israeli resort hotel in Mombasa, shoulder fired SAM attack on Israeli plane in Mombasa, Bali nightclub, random shootings of American servicement in Kuwait and Afghanistan.
All invading Afghanistan did was move Al Qaeda to another country. Do you really think letting a bunch of tribal warlords whom you just bought off with CIA money was really going to effectively deal with Al Qaeda.<hr></blockquote>Seems that your clever little trump card of 'cry racism' is as hollow as your insults
<strong>part of teh expressed reason for 911 is the American prescence in Arabia . . . since 1991 . . . that constitutes a reacction to a percieved invasion
as said so by the head terrorist himself</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, this is their problem because they're wrong.
[quote]Again, this is their problem because they're wrong.<hr></blockquote>Well as evidenced by 9/11 it is actually our problem now, whether "they" are morally correct or incorrect is inconsequential as lives have now changed.
Paglia misses one of the biggest disastrous points about the war--who pays for it in terms of dollars, because its not in this years budget package. Would everyone out there accept a tax hike to pay for the war and to pay for the increased cost of security because of possible terrorist actions?
<strong>Well as evidenced by 9/11 it is actually our problem now, whether "they" are morally correct or incorrect is inconsequential as lives have now changed.
Paglia misses one of the biggest disastrous points about the war--who pays for it in terms of dollars, because its not in this years budget package. Would everyone out there accept a tax hike to pay for the war and to pay for the increased cost of security because of possible terrorist actions?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.</strong><hr></blockquote>boy that sure is noble sentiment there
Its nice how unafraid you are for all of the Iraqi lives that will be lost, and possible Americans
Its nice how your lack of fear is so convincing, as you type in a computer-fan site far from any real danger.
and, most likely in the same country that you have probably lived in all of your life . . . never seeing how complex and real the rest of the world is.
and yes it is our problem, besides its apparent illegality.
Now don't get me wrong, if we need to get something done then we should do it but we should become part of the international community unstead of making ourselves the universally agreed upon bully and new pariah
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BuonRotto, you have raised my curiosity enough to post this thread. i would usually just let all you opinionated enough to try to convince others that your political stance is correct just get on with it and pour your hearts out.
but i was wondering:
do you accept that your country has any responsibility for the current state of affairs?
do you not think that supplying weapons of singular and mass destruction, training troops in the art of warfare and building a dictator through highly profitible international political and trade deals way back when goes some way to you now actually having to wash your dirty linen?
let's face it, america's not the "bad guy" in this situation, just you personally and unfortunately far too many others like you are myopic and are being mislead by a greedy government bent on self promotion and pumping propaganda through every channel available. i would have thought (or hoped) you would be able to look back at your parents experiences during the cold war and understand that the yarn they were dealt then is made from exactly the same cloth that you find in your avarage CNN article now? no? ok... pour your heart out.
[quote]1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.<hr></blockquote>Who exactly is pushing you around? I take it that you haven't had to register with the INS, you haven't been illegally deported to another country, and you aren't an enemy combatant. Its very important to be precise about what/who exactly you think the threat is.
Unless you're planning a trip to Lahore, Peshawar or some other dicey stronghold of goofiness, very few people will associate you with the actions of your country and hold you personally responsible, so I'm tryin to figure out who "we" is and who "they" are, because last time I checked Islam was no more monolithic that Christianity and the Middle East is much more influenced by nationalism that any pan-arabist philosophy which really died out in the late '70s, and is still dead despite Bin Laden's best efforts.
Well, obivously my original post has beenl ost to the ages. Go read it again and come back to me.
I am not some -- what? -- ultra "conservative" tool of the Bush administration. But I'm also not part of the Blame Ameria First club. i'm not sure what to tell you guys other than you completely don't understand what I'm trying to say and I apparently can't communicate it. So feel free to smear.
added: "I" consider "myself" an "American" and all "those" who "hate" "America" and "Americans" will "hate" "me" and anything "I" "try" to "do" or "say" no matter what the "intention" is. That's my only point in the last few posts. Please read my original post. This has gone astray.
<strong>Well, obivously my original post has beenl ost to the ages. Go read it again and come back to me.
I am not some -- what? -- ultra "conservative" tool of the Bush administration. But I'm also not part of the Blame Ameria First club. i'm not sure what to tell you guys other than you completely don't understand what I'm trying to say and I apparently can't communicate it. So feel free to smear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
hey i'm not trying to smear, i'm trying to work out why you changed your reasonable tone to a 'us' and 'them' persecuted patriotic dullard and was quite hoping for an answer to my query.
addition: i mean let's face it ANY country that is about to make an agressive military (or in propaganda parlance: pre-emptive) strike against another country HAS to be able to justify such actions to the GLOBAL community and not just to itself.
hey i'm not trying to smear, i'm trying to work out why you changed your reasonable tone to a 'us' and 'them' persecuted patriotic dullard and was quite hoping for an answer to my query.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can't be concerned with how people perceive me. Sorry, it reeally isn't a factor. Really isn't either conservative, liberal or whatever. Just one of those little things called principles I guess. The obvious assumption in what I said is that we were talking about radical Islam, and thus my responses were directed toward this contingent.
[added again:]
So in that, I do not care what Radical Islam blames us for. I do not care if they think we've invaded Saudi Arabia, unfairly forced their ancestors out of Europe or anything else they have to say. I just turn that crap off.
I can't be concerned with how people perceive me. Sorry, it reeally isn't a factor. Really isn't either conservative, liberal or whatever. Just one of those little things called principles I guess. The obvious assumption in what I said is that we were talking about radical Islam, and thus my responses were directed toward this contingent.
[added again:]
So in that, I do not care what Radical Islam blames us for. I do not care if they think we've invaded Saudi Arabia, unfairly forced their ancestors out of Europe or anything else they have to say. I just turn that crap off.
so you're saying that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2727471.stm"; target="_blank">this</a> is fabricated and that iraq is a nation built upon muslim fundementalists and that saddam himself has claimed that his islamic beliefs are the driving force behind his actions and that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2735589.stm"; target="_blank">this</a> has nothing to do with the whole affair?
[quote] this has nothing to do with the whole affair?<hr></blockquote>
Right. 'Cause if you're worried about short-term oil prices, you go and make a big war in the middle of the world's biggest oil-producing region.
Maybe it has more to do with recognizing the need to replace the Saudi government? And that you can't risk doing that unless you can guarantee a stabilizing presence next door, which, in a pinch, can make up for a temporary loss of Saudi oil? And serve a model for what will replace the Saud? Couldn't be, because that would be a far-sighted strategic plan for combating the root causes of Arab/Islamic terrorism. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
No all this shit has been generated from this blurb:
[quote]wasn't 9-11 a direct result of the 91 war with Iraq?? our troops went into Saudi and stayed, bin laden and his terrorist group didn't like that and have planned terrorist attacks ever since then...the african embassy, the cole and the twin towers being the largest hits<hr></blockquote>
It's about 9/11 and religious funadamentalists. That's what i was addressing. That is what I was responding too, really just adding to.
<strong>Camile Paglia is a Vagina with a PhD, but at least she's funny.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell did Matsu and his not so funny gender related jokes get back in here. I knew he wouldn't be gone long. They never are. Just like Nixon and his " Well you won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore ".
Comments
<strong>Sorry, I meant to say, "talking vagina."
Basically, you're fvcked because epochs tend to put cultures into either mythic, poetic or rational/scientific periods of development. Our machinery of the state has been telling us that rational-scientific is the way to go, the ideals are secular, democratic, etc etc... fine, but that has never held people for long.
That's the last step before death. In a sense, culture at this level is already dead because its progeny are infertile, there's no place left for us to go and it cannot really contend with the inherent brutality of people (I would say man, but because we're dealing with brutality I will include women) with the same fludity and ease that a mythic or poetic discourse brings.
A wise being would never move beyond the bounds of poetics because only poetics can deal with myth, man, god, and science. It is the Catholic social disposition -- surrounded by higher and lesser reaches. Time and success will tend towards the rational, but if we use the benefits of science we must always be leary of the consequences. Stagnation in the poetic tends to regress back to the mythic, makes us dumb to reality, resistant to knowledge, luddites.
The poetic is always embattled, always, from within and without. Paglia needs to sell papers, promote her own brand -- you need to distrust celebrity academics.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure exactly why you hate Paglia . . . but you should at least trust that I can read her, take from her what I find interesting, and recognize her careerist (to use her term) academic power grabs at the same time.
Its possible to take ideas as interesting without needing to see them as empirical facts or scientific truths . . .perhaps that is the problem with the scientific/rationalist approach
for instance, I found what you said above very interesting, remeniscent, even, of Vico . . . but I would hardly ask for proof
I am not a pessimist when it comes to the possibilities of our culture. . . I tend to take influence from people who are (Heidegger, Nietzsche) but I think that there are other potential thought forms that are just starting to emerge that are neither scientfic/rationalist nor mythic but closer to new forms of the poetic . . .post-scientific/animism .. . . whatever . . . that's an entirely different conversation
But I see that what the world and the West will need to combat is the slide from Rationalism, with its consequent sense of values coming from nowhere but our Subjectivity and therefor not having intrinsic value, to neo-Barbarism: giving into unreflective forms of groupformations based only on force . .. more barbarous then pre-civilization because these forms allready had values and Law and found them meaningsless, in fact, found them as the source of the world's meaninglessness
Fascisms and Fundamentalisms seem to fit this mold: their attitudes almost seek Revenge on the democratic/reason...for clearing the world of its intrinsic bodily value, and saying that we Made values yet we are not in ourselves valuable; humanism is a fable too . .
humdeedum . . .over the deepend with me
<strong>Exactly my point: that region has a 'very long memory' as Paglia says, they will not forget so easily the large number of people who will die in this war.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If they're still pisssed about Spain, it's their problem, not mine, not Spain's. I certainly can't take that kind of insane grudge control my thoughts and actions. I can't expect it to control foriegn policy or hold a better future at arm's distance.
[quote]Exactly my point: that region has a 'very long memory' as Paglia says, they will not forget so easily the large number of people who will die in this war.<hr></blockquote>
Screw Spain...I'm still pissed about <a href="http://www.dicksonc.act.edu.au/Showcase/ClioContents/Clio2/manzikert.html"; target="_blank">Manzikert</a>. And that devilspawn Saladin who drove us out of Jersusalem and <a href="http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/BETWEENF/Factoids/fact017.shtml"; target="_blank">prevented the Second Coming of Christ</a>. And hell, I get my shorts in a bunch just thinking about the looks on the faces of the infidels who slaughtered the innocent <a href="http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/firstcrusade/Events/Other_events/peoples_crusade.htm"; target="_blank">People's Crusaders</a> when they wouldn't convert to Islam. [/sarcasm]
Stupid people really piss me off. If you give people a decent life under a liberal, representative government, with an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and for their children, then maybe, just maybe, they won't spend so much time nursing thousand-year-old grudges. And maybe, just maybe, they won't think the highest goal they can aspire to in life is to blow themselves into a million rat-bite-sized chunks. Is this such a stretch for the liberal mind?
Edit: Oh, she's French. Never mind then. Shoulda guessed.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</p>
<strong>Hell they bristle at the word 'Crusade' while most Europeans have no idea who Salladin was . . . and very few care about the history of the Ottomans... except Serb's and Croats</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you sure "they" did or was it just our home-grown handwringers wailing that "they" would?
[quote]<strong>it has nothing to do with truth, its about expediency and group-thought</strong><hr></blockquote>
Religion?
[quote]<strong>it has nothing to do with racism as most people in iraq are as Caucasian as I am . . it has nothing to do with their 'race' but their Culture</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Race" is about culture.
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type
So yeah, it's racism.
Empty and elitist philosophy will get us as far as limp-wristed diplomacy.
Look, we aren't even at war yet and it is sparking resentment: [quote] Flogging the French
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
h, for the halcyon days of a year ago, when we fretted about why Arabs hate us. Now the question is: Why does everybody hate us?
The European edition of Time magazine has been conducting a poll on its Web site: "Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003?" With 318,000 votes cast so far, the responses are: North Korea, 7 percent; Iraq, 8 percent; the United States, 84 percent.
O.K., it's just an Internet poll and not worth the pixels it's not printed on. Sure, the Poles and Portuguese may still dance with us. But if there were an extra spot on the axis of evil, the world would vote us in. Somehow, in a year's time, we've become Iraq. <hr></blockquote>
and, to finally get some stats on the rise of significant terrorist activities since 911: I will just quote Cowerd, who originally found the links [quote] Only significant terrorist incident in 2000 was the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen. 17 dead. Apart from India/Pakistan nastiness, and Palestinian/Israeli stuff, no other islamic trouble that can be attributed to Al Qaeda.
<a href="http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/chrono2000.htm"; target="_blank">http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/chrono2000.htm</a>;
Prior to 9/11 in 2001, plane hijack in Yemen with US ambassador on board, all hostages released. Letter bomb to american doctor in Saudi Arabia. Thats it pre-9/11.
<a href="http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/chrono2001.htm"; target="_blank">http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/chrono2001.htm</a>;
The following incidents occured between 9/11/2001 and 12/01/2002:
French tanker in Yemen, American diplomat Foley killed in Jordan, multiple attacks on churches in Pakistan, synagogue truck bomb in Tunisia, car bomb in Israeli resort hotel in Mombasa, shoulder fired SAM attack on Israeli plane in Mombasa, Bali nightclub, random shootings of American servicement in Kuwait and Afghanistan.
All invading Afghanistan did was move Al Qaeda to another country. Do you really think letting a bunch of tribal warlords whom you just bought off with CIA money was really going to effectively deal with Al Qaeda.<hr></blockquote>Seems that your clever little trump card of 'cry racism' is as hollow as your insults
as said so by the head terrorist himself
<strong>part of teh expressed reason for 911 is the American prescence in Arabia . . . since 1991 . . . that constitutes a reacction to a percieved invasion
as said so by the head terrorist himself</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, this is their problem because they're wrong.
Paglia misses one of the biggest disastrous points about the war--who pays for it in terms of dollars, because its not in this years budget package. Would everyone out there accept a tax hike to pay for the war and to pay for the increased cost of security because of possible terrorist actions?
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
<strong>Well as evidenced by 9/11 it is actually our problem now, whether "they" are morally correct or incorrect is inconsequential as lives have now changed.
Paglia misses one of the biggest disastrous points about the war--who pays for it in terms of dollars, because its not in this years budget package. Would everyone out there accept a tax hike to pay for the war and to pay for the increased cost of security because of possible terrorist actions?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.
<strong>
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.</strong><hr></blockquote>boy that sure is noble sentiment there
Its nice how unafraid you are for all of the Iraqi lives that will be lost, and possible Americans
Its nice how your lack of fear is so convincing, as you type in a computer-fan site far from any real danger.
and, most likely in the same country that you have probably lived in all of your life . . . never seeing how complex and real the rest of the world is.
and yes it is our problem, besides its apparent illegality.
Now don't get me wrong, if we need to get something done then we should do it but we should become part of the international community unstead of making ourselves the universally agreed upon bully and new pariah
<strong>
1. I absolutely refuse to be pushed around because they're either stupid, insecure, paranoid, insane or all of the above. No matter what we do, how we act, what our intentions and action may be, people will find a way to hate us, so I can't be bothered by their twisted perceptions. We should do what is best for them (and us), and let the chips fall as they may because I tend to think we'll be the "bad guy" in any scenario.
2. Yes, I'm willing to pay. This is more important than money.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BuonRotto, you have raised my curiosity enough to post this thread. i would usually just let all you opinionated enough to try to convince others that your political stance is correct just get on with it and pour your hearts out.
but i was wondering:
do you accept that your country has any responsibility for the current state of affairs?
do you not think that supplying weapons of singular and mass destruction, training troops in the art of warfare and building a dictator through highly profitible international political and trade deals way back when goes some way to you now actually having to wash your dirty linen?
let's face it, america's not the "bad guy" in this situation, just you personally and unfortunately far too many others like you are myopic and are being mislead by a greedy government bent on self promotion and pumping propaganda through every channel available. i would have thought (or hoped) you would be able to look back at your parents experiences during the cold war and understand that the yarn they were dealt then is made from exactly the same cloth that you find in your avarage CNN article now? no? ok... pour your heart out.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: lungaretta ]</p>
Unless you're planning a trip to Lahore, Peshawar or some other dicey stronghold of goofiness, very few people will associate you with the actions of your country and hold you personally responsible, so I'm tryin to figure out who "we" is and who "they" are, because last time I checked Islam was no more monolithic that Christianity and the Middle East is much more influenced by nationalism that any pan-arabist philosophy which really died out in the late '70s, and is still dead despite Bin Laden's best efforts.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
I am not some -- what? -- ultra "conservative" tool of the Bush administration. But I'm also not part of the Blame Ameria First club. i'm not sure what to tell you guys other than you completely don't understand what I'm trying to say and I apparently can't communicate it. So feel free to smear.
added: "I" consider "myself" an "American" and all "those" who "hate" "America" and "Americans" will "hate" "me" and anything "I" "try" to "do" or "say" no matter what the "intention" is. That's my only point in the last few posts. Please read my original post. This has gone astray.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>Well, obivously my original post has beenl ost to the ages. Go read it again and come back to me.
I am not some -- what? -- ultra "conservative" tool of the Bush administration. But I'm also not part of the Blame Ameria First club. i'm not sure what to tell you guys other than you completely don't understand what I'm trying to say and I apparently can't communicate it. So feel free to smear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
hey i'm not trying to smear, i'm trying to work out why you changed your reasonable tone to a 'us' and 'them' persecuted patriotic dullard and was quite hoping for an answer to my query.
addition: i mean let's face it ANY country that is about to make an agressive military (or in propaganda parlance: pre-emptive) strike against another country HAS to be able to justify such actions to the GLOBAL community and not just to itself.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: lungaretta ]</p>
<strong>
hey i'm not trying to smear, i'm trying to work out why you changed your reasonable tone to a 'us' and 'them' persecuted patriotic dullard and was quite hoping for an answer to my query.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can't be concerned with how people perceive me. Sorry, it reeally isn't a factor. Really isn't either conservative, liberal or whatever. Just one of those little things called principles I guess. The obvious assumption in what I said is that we were talking about radical Islam, and thus my responses were directed toward this contingent.
[added again:]
So in that, I do not care what Radical Islam blames us for. I do not care if they think we've invaded Saudi Arabia, unfairly forced their ancestors out of Europe or anything else they have to say. I just turn that crap off.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>
I can't be concerned with how people perceive me. Sorry, it reeally isn't a factor. Really isn't either conservative, liberal or whatever. Just one of those little things called principles I guess. The obvious assumption in what I said is that we were talking about radical Islam, and thus my responses were directed toward this contingent.
[added again:]
So in that, I do not care what Radical Islam blames us for. I do not care if they think we've invaded Saudi Arabia, unfairly forced their ancestors out of Europe or anything else they have to say. I just turn that crap off.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
so you're saying that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2727471.stm"; target="_blank">this</a> is fabricated and that iraq is a nation built upon muslim fundementalists and that saddam himself has claimed that his islamic beliefs are the driving force behind his actions and that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2735589.stm"; target="_blank">this</a> has nothing to do with the whole affair?
Right. 'Cause if you're worried about short-term oil prices, you go and make a big war in the middle of the world's biggest oil-producing region.
Maybe it has more to do with recognizing the need to replace the Saudi government? And that you can't risk doing that unless you can guarantee a stabilizing presence next door, which, in a pinch, can make up for a temporary loss of Saudi oil? And serve a model for what will replace the Saud? Couldn't be, because that would be a far-sighted strategic plan for combating the root causes of Arab/Islamic terrorism. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]wasn't 9-11 a direct result of the 91 war with Iraq?? our troops went into Saudi and stayed, bin laden and his terrorist group didn't like that and have planned terrorist attacks ever since then...the african embassy, the cole and the twin towers being the largest hits<hr></blockquote>
It's about 9/11 and religious funadamentalists. That's what i was addressing. That is what I was responding too, really just adding to.
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>Camile Paglia is a Vagina with a PhD, but at least she's funny.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell did Matsu and his not so funny gender related jokes get back in here. I knew he wouldn't be gone long. They never are. Just like Nixon and his " Well you won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore ".