not really. OSX runs poorly on an iBook. most of the people on this board own macs released in the last two or 3 years. I think its insulting to generalzie them all as whiners who have no money to buy a machine because their mommies don't give them the money.
the majority of people here own some expensive machines.
I know I would have considered a combo drive iBook had it had a radeon and/or a G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Didn't mean to insult the pro's, and I don't think I said that most of the people on this board are whiners - they aren't.
Have YOU used an iBook a lot? It does not run OSX poorly! That's just plain wrong. I also have an iMac 400 MHz - it runs OSX fine also, and in a pinch, does well with video editing. Maybe your just talking about game performance? Without a doubt there is some lacking there. But OSX? It's good! Let me tell everyone who is wondering whether to buy an iBook or not that it runs OSX fine!
But tell us how your TiBook run OSX? If you believe the latest TiBooks also run OSX poorly, then I understand more where you're coming from - that OSX just runs "poorly". Maybe your poorly = my good.
Tell me this...what would you guys rather have, an iBook G3 that runs iApps and parts of OS X slowly or an iBook G4 that zooms through them for 100 more on all models bar high end? Or perhaps a Sahara iBook? It would be worth it to me.
I would say that too many [B]similar[/Q] models muddy the landscape. Apple has the sparsest lineup of any major computer company. There are just three different cases. Sony (kicking Apple's but in Japan) has at least five, Toshiba, Dell others all have five or six models.
The problem Apple had about six years ago with multiple models is that they were all virtually the same. You couldn't distinguish a IIci from a IIvi without a playbook.
In my opinion, Apple should make a wider variety of laptops. It is nice that they have the 12.1 and 14 inch iBooks. Now how about a 12.1 inch notebook for executives along the lines of this 2.6lb. Toshiba:
A deep metallic blue or green cover, fast FW, kind of like the BMW roadster.
At the high end Apple could also make a monster TiBook. Make it two inches thick with a fan and dual G4s and a 17 inch wide screen.
The idea is not to have lots of similar models but to have models that are well differentiated and suit the needs of a number of different markets.
-- end of rant --</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with neutrino23. Who thinks that having 2 pro portables muddies anything?!?!?! This is one of the dumbest perceptions that still lives in the cerebral cortices of many pseudo-marketing geniuses on these boards. This is 2002 and there is ONE kind of Apple Pro portable. That isn't enough.
As above I don't see Sony being mired in a morass of too many models and Apple's product reduction has done its job already. Time to move on. Time to expand choice.
That being said, I don't think a 12" Ti makes alot of sense, but what about a 10" pro subnotebook? THAT would be cool and take the wind out of Sony's sails and sales, especially in Japan.
I remember the Performa days where Apple had so many different products that consumers and Pros couldn't keep them apart. I think the line up Apple has now is great. A low, middle and high-end portable.
I don't think the 12.1 iBook will be replaced with a TiBook due to price. The education market (and consumers) are eating these up. You want something more, you can get the bigger iBook or TiBook.
I'm hunting a close out 12.1 iBook at Circuit City today.
To me it looks like only two portable lines: Consumer and Pro and there are two sizes of Consumer.
Ideally there would be three sizes of each (14", 12", 10"), including subnotebooks, but the subnotebook consumer would be difficult to make cheap enough and the 12" Ti would be a little too marginal. So a 10" Ti would fit the bill and people would pay lots for it. That would give us 2 sizes in 2 product lines.
The problem with phasing out the G3, and the iBook is affordability, and the education market. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I realize cost is always in issue. However,
the quickest way to lose the educational market is if your product doesn't perform well.
Apple needs to refine OSX to run quickly on the current G3 iBook. That or get that 1GHZ G3 chip in there soon. It's silly to tout OSX as the future but have it running so slowly on 500mHz 66 bus iBooks.
That's why I've always advocated having some sort of scaled down OSX Lite version for G3 equipped Macs.[/QB]
satchmo... You just. Well... there are two cool things that came of that. One of which has to happen If you ask me, and it has to be part of Apples plan.
OS X will be hitting the 12:00 mark soon. That pretty much means it's no longer a beta Xv10.1.2, or what ever. Which realy means Apple will probably move the rest of the line (iBook) to the G4. What other choice do they have? Does Apple ask, or want bad reviews? I doubt Apple has not thought of the comnciquences of releasing OS X as a finalized product, and not though about what the press would say about the iBook still being on a G3 that has almost incompatibility issues with the OS. It does not run that well, or fast realy on a G3.
The education marketplace would probably take note of that. I would think Apple has a new iBook to announce at the time of OS 10's completion. As a matter of fact.
Now I'm thinking this is a good time for an iBook Ti, or a TiBook to add to the lineup. Naaah... I don't know they just added a 14" display model I doubt Apple is going to update one line twice...
sjpsu: Thank you for introducing this topic. It is very dear to my heart (see my signature).
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>There's no way the 12in iBook is going anywhere.... the 12in iBooks are amazingly popular.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because it is an amazingly well-designed laptop which offers by far the best value.
[quote]<strong>My guess is that the next major iBook revision will come in mid to late 2003, when it'll lose a pound and gain a G4. There's no need for a mini-PowerBook. The iBook will get there eventually.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Belle hits the nail right on the head: the iBook will continue to undergo the logical evolution it has followed until now. The iBook will get lighter and more powerful. And my hope is that it will continue to be very sturdy and have great battery life at the minimal expense of slightly increased weight.
sjpsu proposes a 12" mini-Ti to replace the 12" iBook. As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care what it's called, as long as it is lighter and hopefully more powerful than today's iBook. I owned a long succession of PowerBooks until May 2001. But when the iBook fulfilled more of my needs, I switched without giving a second thought to name.
<strong>OSX runs poorly on an iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's simply not true. Sure, OS X runs faster on a G4 than on a G3. But I would not describe OS X's permformance on my iBook as "poor". (And I have the model with the crappy 66 Mhz bus.)
I resisted upgrading to Mac OS 8.x on my PowerBook 520c, which shipped with 7.5, for at least six months, all because 8.0 and then 8.1 were slower than 7.5. In the end I made the jump for added features and did just fine, even though the interface was slower.
[quote]<strong>I know I would have considered a combo drive iBook had it had a radeon and/or a G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
applenut: It's still your mommy that gave you the cash to buy your TiBook. (Note: it's OK and perfectly normal that parents support their kids if they can. I just couldn't resist quabbling. My life would have been completely different if my parents hadn't bought me my first and second computers many years ago.)
jwdawso's point that "the weight, battery life, PRICE, etc - in other words, the total package - is why iBooks are flying off the shelf" applies especially well to parents buying portable Macs for their kids.
[quote]That's simply not true. Sure, OS X runs faster on a G4 than on a G3. But I would not describe OS X's permformance on my iBook as "poor". (And I have the model with the crappy 66 Mhz bus.)
I resisted upgrading to Mac OS 8.x on my PowerBook 520c, which shipped with 7.5, for at least six months, all because 8.0 and then 8.1 were slower than 7.5. In the end I made the jump for added features and did just fine, even though the interface was slower.<hr></blockquote>
it simply is true. everyone has different standards. but many people are second guessing buying an iBook simply because OS X's performance.
it's dumb. an operating system should not even cause a hint of doubt of its performance on MODERN hardware. Maybe on a computer 2 or 3 years old but its not acceptable to some on today's hardware.
you can't deny that the responsiveness of OS X on the iBook is not good, that's its not where it should be and is far below that of a G4 equiped machine.
Hell, try running a fullscreen high datarate QT movie. watch your framerate go to 10fps simply because OS X can't keep up.
[quote]applenut: It's still your mommy that gave you the cash to buy your TiBook. (Note: it's OK and perfectly normal that parents support their kids if they can. I just couldn't resist quabbling. My life would have been completely different if my parents hadn't bought me my first and second computers many years ago.)<hr></blockquote>
perhaps because it is her computer
I bought with my own money both my PowerMac 9500 180/MP, and PowerMac G4/400 and now once again I will buying with my own money either an iMac or a DP G4 when they meet what I want.
Aren't we avoiding the issue here - the TiBook just looks so much cooler than the iBook. Does anyone else think Apple wants us to pay more for the better-looking model?
The consumer models have usually been more "whimsical" looking than the pro models - I almost barfed when I saw the green and orange iBooks. And I don't even want to talk about Blue Oyster and LSD Sunflower. The exception I suppose was the smurf G3 tower - but that quickly changed to graphite.
The same is even true of the current laptops: I just don't like the look of the glossy white iBook as much as the cool, more "mature" coloring of the TiBook. The iBook isn't bad, but I prefer the look of the TiBook.
If you want a more mature looking computer, you have to pay more. I'm sure that some people want whimsical-looking computers. But I think pro users, who may not like being giggled at by their colleagues, may pay more for the high-end based in part on the looks, even if they could do their work on the consumer model.
<strong>I just don't like the look of the glossy white iBook as much as the cool, more "mature" coloring of the TiBook. The iBook isn't bad, but I prefer the look of the TiBook.
... But I think pro users, who may not like being giggled at by their colleagues, may pay more for the high-end based in part on the looks, even if they could do their work on the consumer model.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's subjective. Many would argue the iBook in it's stark whiteness, is cooler and more minimalist than the Powerbook.
My feeling is that the Powerbook needs a refreshing especially the keyboard and trackpad (love the iBook's trackpad).
Curious, how many people in your presence have laughed at the iBook? Most reactions I've seen are usually in awe and wished they had one.
<strong>Aren't we avoiding the issue here - the TiBook just looks so much cooler than the iBook. Does anyone else think Apple wants us to pay more for the better-looking model?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the "look" has more to do with market, than with price. The iBook for consumers should look easy to use and look rugged or at least not feel flimsey. The Tibook should look professional and business-like. It just happens that pros have more money to spend.
Escher, I was hoping you would have commented (past pluperfect?) on a subnotebook Tibook. Is it that you don't think it is a good idea or that it is just not going to happen so no need to worry about it. I think a 10" Tibook would do wonders for Apples portable market and its only real competition, Sony subnotebooks.
A 10" Ti would be different enough from any other portable, that it would find its own audience. Business tpes could get the Tibook without having to have a cinema screen that many don't need. The subnotebook could stay very thin, doesn't need superdrive anyway, and would thus have great battery life.
The only problem might be getting G4 into it, and it might cost the same as a full-sized one.
To seque this back to the topic, I'd say that the 10" Tibook would be a significant change for Apple portables, but with a big upside. A 12" TiBook would be less change with less of an upside.
There is another problem with this TiBook now that I think of it.
Apple is right now growing in popularity in my opinion [IMO], and they need not flood the market with too many compact products. Now I'm not talking about existing compact products, but (I would not bet money), but would think that Apple has thought of re-introducing a PDA like device, or a tablet of some sort. (and possibly prototyped such devices) This would make existing Mac users pretty damn happy, and make the MacCommunity that much more attractive to people thinking of migrating from elsewhere. Personaly I think if there is a PDA in the works I would hope Apple held off until Tri-Band, or 3G was a viable option, and totaly capitalize on it's spectrum.
(I wont even get into the tablet)
Still, after taking all that in it may be a safer bet to let migration happen first, and stick with a farmiiar small laptop TiBook for the time being. It's still a tuff call.
Comments
<strong>
not really. OSX runs poorly on an iBook. most of the people on this board own macs released in the last two or 3 years. I think its insulting to generalzie them all as whiners who have no money to buy a machine because their mommies don't give them the money.
the majority of people here own some expensive machines.
I know I would have considered a combo drive iBook had it had a radeon and/or a G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Didn't mean to insult the pro's, and I don't think I said that most of the people on this board are whiners - they aren't.
Have YOU used an iBook a lot? It does not run OSX poorly! That's just plain wrong. I also have an iMac 400 MHz - it runs OSX fine also, and in a pinch, does well with video editing. Maybe your just talking about game performance? Without a doubt there is some lacking there. But OSX? It's good! Let me tell everyone who is wondering whether to buy an iBook or not that it runs OSX fine!
But tell us how your TiBook run OSX? If you believe the latest TiBooks also run OSX poorly, then I understand more where you're coming from - that OSX just runs "poorly". Maybe your poorly = my good.
[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: jwdawso ]</p>
<strong>
I would say that too many [B]similar[/Q] models muddy the landscape. Apple has the sparsest lineup of any major computer company. There are just three different cases. Sony (kicking Apple's but in Japan) has at least five, Toshiba, Dell others all have five or six models.
The problem Apple had about six years ago with multiple models is that they were all virtually the same. You couldn't distinguish a IIci from a IIvi without a playbook.
In my opinion, Apple should make a wider variety of laptops. It is nice that they have the 12.1 and 14 inch iBooks. Now how about a 12.1 inch notebook for executives along the lines of this 2.6lb. Toshiba:
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-838724.html"; target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-838724.html</a>;
A deep metallic blue or green cover, fast FW, kind of like the BMW roadster.
At the high end Apple could also make a monster TiBook. Make it two inches thick with a fan and dual G4s and a 17 inch wide screen.
The idea is not to have lots of similar models but to have models that are well differentiated and suit the needs of a number of different markets.
-- end of rant --</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with neutrino23. Who thinks that having 2 pro portables muddies anything?!?!?! This is one of the dumbest perceptions that still lives in the cerebral cortices of many pseudo-marketing geniuses on these boards. This is 2002 and there is ONE kind of Apple Pro portable. That isn't enough.
As above I don't see Sony being mired in a morass of too many models and Apple's product reduction has done its job already. Time to move on. Time to expand choice.
That being said, I don't think a 12" Ti makes alot of sense, but what about a 10" pro subnotebook? THAT would be cool and take the wind out of Sony's sails and sales, especially in Japan.
<strong>That's why I've always advocated having some sort of scaled down OSX Lite version for G3 equipped Macs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The slow bit's the window manager. How does OS X lite work, then?
<strong>
The slow bit's the window manager. How does OS X lite work, then?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No GUI at all maybe <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
hey dweebs btw
I don't think the 12.1 iBook will be replaced with a TiBook due to price. The education market (and consumers) are eating these up. You want something more, you can get the bigger iBook or TiBook.
I'm hunting a close out 12.1 iBook at Circuit City today.
[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: CodeWarrior ]</p>
Ideally there would be three sizes of each (14", 12", 10"), including subnotebooks, but the subnotebook consumer would be difficult to make cheap enough and the 12" Ti would be a little too marginal. So a 10" Ti would fit the bill and people would pay lots for it. That would give us 2 sizes in 2 product lines.
Originally posted by satchmo:
<strong>[qb]
The problem with phasing out the G3, and the iBook is affordability, and the education market. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I realize cost is always in issue. However,
the quickest way to lose the educational market is if your product doesn't perform well.
Apple needs to refine OSX to run quickly on the current G3 iBook. That or get that 1GHZ G3 chip in there soon. It's silly to tout OSX as the future but have it running so slowly on 500mHz 66 bus iBooks.
That's why I've always advocated having some sort of scaled down OSX Lite version for G3 equipped Macs.[/QB]
satchmo... You just. Well... there are two cool things that came of that. One of which has to happen If you ask me, and it has to be part of Apples plan.
OS X will be hitting the 12:00 mark soon. That pretty much means it's no longer a beta Xv10.1.2, or what ever. Which realy means Apple will probably move the rest of the line (iBook) to the G4. What other choice do they have? Does Apple ask, or want bad reviews? I doubt Apple has not thought of the comnciquences of releasing OS X as a finalized product, and not though about what the press would say about the iBook still being on a G3 that has almost incompatibility issues with the OS. It does not run that well, or fast realy on a G3.
The education marketplace would probably take note of that. I would think Apple has a new iBook to announce at the time of OS 10's completion. As a matter of fact.
Now I'm thinking this is a good time for an iBook Ti, or a TiBook to add to the lineup. Naaah... I don't know they just added a 14" display model I doubt Apple is going to update one line twice...
I'm outa here.
<strong>hey dweebs btw</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why I oughta....
Torque?
<strong>
Why I oughta....
Torque?</strong><hr></blockquote>
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!1111
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>There's no way the 12in iBook is going anywhere.... the 12in iBooks are amazingly popular.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's because it is an amazingly well-designed laptop which offers by far the best value.
[quote]<strong>My guess is that the next major iBook revision will come in mid to late 2003, when it'll lose a pound and gain a G4. There's no need for a mini-PowerBook. The iBook will get there eventually.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Belle hits the nail right on the head: the iBook will continue to undergo the logical evolution it has followed until now. The iBook will get lighter and more powerful. And my hope is that it will continue to be very sturdy and have great battery life at the minimal expense of slightly increased weight.
sjpsu proposes a 12" mini-Ti to replace the 12" iBook. As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care what it's called, as long as it is lighter and hopefully more powerful than today's iBook. I owned a long succession of PowerBooks until May 2001. But when the iBook fulfilled more of my needs, I switched without giving a second thought to name.
Escher
[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
<strong>OSX runs poorly on an iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's simply not true. Sure, OS X runs faster on a G4 than on a G3. But I would not describe OS X's permformance on my iBook as "poor". (And I have the model with the crappy 66 Mhz bus.)
I resisted upgrading to Mac OS 8.x on my PowerBook 520c, which shipped with 7.5, for at least six months, all because 8.0 and then 8.1 were slower than 7.5. In the end I made the jump for added features and did just fine, even though the interface was slower.
[quote]<strong>I know I would have considered a combo drive iBook had it had a radeon and/or a G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
applenut: It's still your mommy that gave you the cash to buy your TiBook.
jwdawso's point that "the weight, battery life, PRICE, etc - in other words, the total package - is why iBooks are flying off the shelf" applies especially well to parents buying portable Macs for their kids.
Escher
[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
I resisted upgrading to Mac OS 8.x on my PowerBook 520c, which shipped with 7.5, for at least six months, all because 8.0 and then 8.1 were slower than 7.5. In the end I made the jump for added features and did just fine, even though the interface was slower.<hr></blockquote>
it simply is true. everyone has different standards. but many people are second guessing buying an iBook simply because OS X's performance.
it's dumb. an operating system should not even cause a hint of doubt of its performance on MODERN hardware. Maybe on a computer 2 or 3 years old but its not acceptable to some on today's hardware.
you can't deny that the responsiveness of OS X on the iBook is not good, that's its not where it should be and is far below that of a G4 equiped machine.
Hell, try running a fullscreen high datarate QT movie. watch your framerate go to 10fps simply because OS X can't keep up.
[quote]applenut: It's still your mommy that gave you the cash to buy your TiBook. (Note: it's OK and perfectly normal that parents support their kids if they can. I just couldn't resist quabbling. My life would have been completely different if my parents hadn't bought me my first and second computers many years ago.)<hr></blockquote>
perhaps because it is her computer
I bought with my own money both my PowerMac 9500 180/MP, and PowerMac G4/400 and now once again I will buying with my own money either an iMac or a DP G4 when they meet what I want.
I would like to see:
- 10" G3 700 Mhz
- 12" G4 700 MHz (current iBook case)
- 15.1" G4 800 Mhz (current TiBook case)
With the usually BTO options, we could please almost everyone, no?The consumer models have usually been more "whimsical" looking than the pro models - I almost barfed when I saw the green and orange iBooks. And I don't even want to talk about Blue Oyster and LSD Sunflower. The exception I suppose was the smurf G3 tower - but that quickly changed to graphite.
The same is even true of the current laptops: I just don't like the look of the glossy white iBook as much as the cool, more "mature" coloring of the TiBook. The iBook isn't bad, but I prefer the look of the TiBook.
If you want a more mature looking computer, you have to pay more. I'm sure that some people want whimsical-looking computers. But I think pro users, who may not like being giggled at by their colleagues, may pay more for the high-end based in part on the looks, even if they could do their work on the consumer model.
<strong>I just don't like the look of the glossy white iBook as much as the cool, more "mature" coloring of the TiBook. The iBook isn't bad, but I prefer the look of the TiBook.
... But I think pro users, who may not like being giggled at by their colleagues, may pay more for the high-end based in part on the looks, even if they could do their work on the consumer model.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's subjective. Many would argue the iBook in it's stark whiteness, is cooler and more minimalist than the Powerbook.
My feeling is that the Powerbook needs a refreshing especially the keyboard and trackpad (love the iBook's trackpad).
Curious, how many people in your presence have laughed at the iBook? Most reactions I've seen are usually in awe and wished they had one.
<strong>Aren't we avoiding the issue here - the TiBook just looks so much cooler than the iBook. Does anyone else think Apple wants us to pay more for the better-looking model?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the "look" has more to do with market, than with price. The iBook for consumers should look easy to use and look rugged or at least not feel flimsey. The Tibook should look professional and business-like. It just happens that pros have more money to spend.
Escher, I was hoping you would have commented (past pluperfect?) on a subnotebook Tibook. Is it that you don't think it is a good idea or that it is just not going to happen so no need to worry about it. I think a 10" Tibook would do wonders for Apples portable market and its only real competition, Sony subnotebooks.
A 10" Ti would be different enough from any other portable, that it would find its own audience. Business tpes could get the Tibook without having to have a cinema screen that many don't need. The subnotebook could stay very thin, doesn't need superdrive anyway, and would thus have great battery life.
The only problem might be getting G4 into it, and it might cost the same as a full-sized one.
To seque this back to the topic, I'd say that the 10" Tibook would be a significant change for Apple portables, but with a big upside. A 12" TiBook would be less change with less of an upside.
<strong>How would a 12" TiBook be different from a G4 iBook?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Portability
A 12.1" TiBook's form factor would be smaller and lighter than an iBook's.
Apple is right now growing in popularity in my opinion [IMO], and they need not flood the market with too many compact products. Now I'm not talking about existing compact products, but (I would not bet money), but would think that Apple has thought of re-introducing a PDA like device, or a tablet of some sort. (and possibly prototyped such devices) This would make existing Mac users pretty damn happy, and make the MacCommunity that much more attractive to people thinking of migrating from elsewhere. Personaly I think if there is a PDA in the works I would hope Apple held off until Tri-Band, or 3G was a viable option, and totaly capitalize on it's spectrum.
(I wont even get into the tablet)
Still, after taking all that in it may be a safer bet to let migration happen first, and stick with a farmiiar small laptop TiBook for the time being. It's still a tuff call.
<strong>
Portability
A 12.1" TiBook's form factor would be smaller and lighter than an iBook's.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, but thats why I proposed that a G4 be put in the iBook's case and a sub-notebook be introduced with a fast G3.