US Congress vs "Old Europe"

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  • Reply 41 of 98
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    [quote]Originally posted by Harald:

    <strong>I would imagine that tens of thousands of UN troops widdling all over the country would be felt as fairly bloody serious by the US where it deemed necessary to do it there.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Why worry about the troops? We've got 100,000+ Americans there just waiting for the green light. 50,000+ British as well. No need for French troops. They're welcome to come, but not needed.



    The nations who interpret "serious consequences" as "war" are willing to sacrifice their soldiers for the cause. No need for France to get her hands dirty.



    [quote]<strong>Beyond that I can't speak for them. Well, I see that they have a different aim and interpretation of 1441 and this crisis and thus have pissed off America (I mean, you guys saved their lives 50 years ago. Not agreeing with everything you do huh! Gratitude.)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I don't ask France to agree with everything or even to help. All I ask is that the French not stand in the way when someone wants to enforce international law. If the French choose to interpret "serious consequences" as "inaction" that's fine, just get out of the way. If you don't want to play the game, sit on the sidelines.



    [quote]<strong>You seem to think that "not doing or thinking what we tell them" equates to "doing nothing at all" with absolutely no reason to do so. Like, it seems, the rest of the Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    What has France done? What is France planning to do?

    Why is it wrong for me to accuse France of promoting inaction when that is exactly what they are doing?



    What are "serious consequences" to the French?



    Also, it would seem that popular French sentiment on this issue is far more united than popular American sentiment. I don't think it out-of-bounds for me to make that generalization that the French are generally anti-war.
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  • Reply 42 of 98
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    [quote] So what does the phrase "serious consequences" mean to the average Frenchie? How are you boys spinning it currently?



    I'm interested to know.



    <hr></blockquote>

    I can't speak for the average frenchie, but i will try to speak for my self.



    Serious is between, dramatic and minor.

    Dramatic will imply nearly automatically war, serious means strong resolutions, like total economical boycott of Iraq (full embargo, even stop the food for oil agreement), minor : 100 % more taxes on Iraqs products for example.



    Serious can also imply, vote in a second resolution a war against iraq. In medecine we say many times, your case is serious but not desesperate.



    Tecnically the french governement will not go to war until a second UNO resolution asking for war is voted. If this second resolution is voted and that France refuse : yes it will be a lack of respect of his obligations. The french governement said that they will consider war at the end, but not until every others options have been tried. The question is : everything has been tried : french governement said know as Russia and China, and US said that it is a waste of time.
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  • Reply 42 of 98
    [quote]A war against Iraq is a nonsense ! The only reason of all this is because Bush wants to control oil in this region !

    Well, Saddam is a dictator, but I think he's not alone and not the worst.

    Should I say North Korea ? Why can't I hear anything about US invading NK ?

    And there's no Al Qaeda in Iraq... In fact Ben Laden hates Saddam...

    US people should stop watching their Bush-TV propaganda and start thinking !<hr></blockquote>



    When you distill it down to the idea that it is solely about oil you expose yourself as a knee jerk moron. Oil is a factor but it isn't the only thing and when you say as much you expose yourself as an idiot who has fallen hook line and sinker for a political soundbyte. The irony of course is that you then question whether people are thinking at all at hte same time that the shepard is warming up his clippers to give you a nice trimming for spring.



    If it makes you feel any better, I voted for Gore and I haven't made my mind up on Iraq although I am leaning towards thinking that "it" will be a mistake. Beyond that, I'd be quite content if someone dropped Rumsfeld into a bubbling cauldron of giraffe feces.



    Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I think a variety of countries have blundered on the issue. I also feel that there is increasing Anti-American prejudice in many of the comments that I read from Europeans and the European press.

    I think the US has likewise made some mistakes in dealing with this but I'm not going to bothering discussing those with you since I'm skeptical you could give a fair evaluation of the topic.



    If you wanted to delineate thoughtfully the differences between the North Korea and Iraq situations then we could then discuss the merits of the respective differences in how the US is dealing with both but given your gross oversimplifications so far I'm inclined to htink that such a discussion is pointless.
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  • Reply 44 of 98
    Hi ColanderOfDeath,

    What are you trying to do here ?

    Never learnt to be polite ?
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  • Reply 45 of 98
    [quote]Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath:

    <strong>

    I also feel that there is increasing Anti-American prejudice in many of the comments that I read from Europeans and the European press..</strong><hr></blockquote>



    From what I understand, the criticism of France in the American press is verging on out and out propaganda. So hey ho.



    In the meantime, I have yet to see any evidence that links Iraq with any extra-national terrorist organisation. Absolutely none. What I do see is selective blindness with regard to the enforcement of UN resolutions and an oil tanker called the Condoleeza Rice.
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  • Reply 46 of 98
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Mac The Fork:



    [quote]<strong>Most Americans alive today didn't do jack shit for France, so what's the relevance? You could argue that there's some form of continuing debt, but it shouldn't make France's current objections offensive.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    How about my grandfather who spent 2 years being moved from prison camp to prison camp from ages 17-19? Irrelevant? He and his fellow POWs dressed up as German soldiers so strafing Allied planes would kill their own thinking them to be Germans. Irrelevant? Driven to a hunger so desparate after escape that he cooked a potato in a kitchen while German officers had lunch 10 feet away in an adjoining room? Irrelevant?



    He's alive and well. He is full of opinions and memories. Irrelevant?



    Oh won't we be so happy when his generation dies so we don't have to hear about it anymore!



    Sorry, Fork, but this doesn't just go away. You can't wish it away.



    We're supposed to weep for the Iraqi civilian and take him into account when deciding what to do in Iraq. But my grandfather and his sacrifices are irrelevant? Very nice. Very very interesting that a position so preachy about how diplomatic it is is so disrespectful at the same time. Very interesting, indeed.



    I don't think anyone is asking France to go to war. They can stay home and knit and play tennis and drink wine.



    While working so very hard to not alienate a brutal dictator make sure you don't alienate the most powerful ally you will ever have, that's all we ask of France.



    Because while France balks at helping Turkey defend herself the U.S. will sacrifice lives to save her. I'm sorry if it sounds like bravado to you, but it's truth. It's the way of this world.



    [quote]<strong>Good question. I don't know why countries and organisations that don't fully support the war need to be manipulated into it -- that's more contemptuous than acting alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    In case you have a reading problem that was in reference to Schroeder saying it was "inappropriate" for Turkey to ask for help in setting up defense against another nation. Not about going into Iraq.



    Last I checked setting up defense within one's borders wasn't making war, what Schroeder's parents might have said about the Maginot Line notwithstanding.



    --------



    Powerdoc (who I like and respect and will therefore not be an asshole towards ):



    [quote]<strong>Serious is between, dramatic and minor.

    Dramatic will imply nearly automatically war, serious means strong resolutions, like total economical boycott of Iraq (full embargo, even stop the food for oil agreement), minor : 100 % more taxes on Iraqs products for example. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Economic boycott, in my opinion, will kill more Iraqi civilians than war. If the impact on Iraqi civilians is truly a concern then harsher economic sanctions can be seen as nothing more than huge bombs. Famine and disease don't care who they kill, armed forces do.



    Their people are dying in droves because of the sanctions as they stand (because Saddam doesn't use the resources to help them). You only hurt the Iraqi people with the economic sanctions, Saddam will still have his palaces.



    I could not in good conscience advocate further economic sanctions against Iraq. I am for removing Saddam and I realize that blood will be shed and I would much rather my army go in and do the dirty work. The way the U.N. has allowed such a vast amount of human suffering to go on in Iraq is reprehensible and, sadly, both of our nations are a part of it.



    [quote]<strong>The question is : everything has been tried : french governement said know as Russia and China, and US said that it is a waste of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yeah, that's where I'm standing. Economic sanctions just cause suffering among the Iraqi population and do nothing to hurt Saddam. And if the goal is to make them suffer so badly that they overthrow their government I'm scared because that is downright sadistic.



    You can't ask him nicely and realistically expect full cooperation.



    I'm afraid there is no longer a choice.
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  • Reply 47 of 98
    my grandfather also fought in WWII and i love him dearly for it...wonderful stories, sad stories, but all stories of strength and will and sacrifice....



    sadly he passed away yesterday...

    happily he passed away while sitting in his favorite chair while watching The Price is Right...his second favortie show (the first being the lawrence welk show)...



    he was against bombing Iraq...he felt war needed great purposes and didn't think we have that at this time...



    he will be missed.....g



    <a href="http://www.welkshow.com/"; target="_blank">the welk show....</a>



    [ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
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  • Reply 48 of 98
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    That's very sad, g, I'm sorry. You know in your mind that their time is soon to be gone but I don't see how I could prepare myself for it.



    If anyone has credibility on an issue of war it is those who have participated in it.
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  • Reply 49 of 98
    thanks, groveat...because my dad left us when i was less than 2, for many years my grandfather was almost a dad to me...i am glad your grandfather is still around...i hope he has many great days and years ahead of him...their generation will be sorely missed....g



    now i have to try and convince my grandma to move from PA out here...it will be hard...she and my grandfather were both born and raised in PA, and have lived their whole lives there...but i hope she will move out and live with us....
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  • Reply 50 of 98
    noahjnoahj Posts: 4,503member
    [quote]Originally posted by Mac The Fork:

    <strong>Most Americans alive today didn't do jack shit for France, so what's the relevance? You could argue that there's some form of continuing debt, but it shouldn't make France's current objections offensive.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Nope, many of the ones that did something for France died doing so. And those that did not die in war are now retired military. We lost almost a generation of youth to WWII helping Europe. 50 years does not wipe that out. Maybe after 100 years it will not seem like such a scar, especially since the children of those young men are still alive and remember how their daddy never came home again... The scars will run deep for a long time.
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  • Reply 51 of 98
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    [quote]Originally posted by Niconono:

    <strong>So please, tell me what are the reasons for a war in Iraq ?

    What can't be done with diplomacy ?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Umm...how about disarming them....you think diplomacy will do that? Has that worked for the last 12 years? Did diplomacy prevent Farnce from getting attacking in ww2? Some menaces can't be contained with diplomacy...welcome to the real world, enjoy your stay.
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  • Reply 52 of 98
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    g:



    (off-topic : nothing about Iraq here)



    If there's one area I can count myself very lucky it's my family. I have all 4 of my grandparents in relative good health (for being near or just past 80) and never having dealt with a death close in the family, except two great-grandparents when I was very young.



    I hope everything works out for the best in your situation. I imagine your grandmother will have a difficult time and having family close will help.



    I remember being a freshman in high school and quite pleased with myself. We had an assignment to interview an older person and write a report on the most interesting things that have happened to them. Being a self-absorbed teenager I remember being moved almost to the point of tears as he described what it was like to be in combat for the first time. He was a part of Operation Torch (allied offensive from North Africa into Italy) and was among the first of the landing parties. I remember him talking about taking cover underneath destroyed landing craft and hearing artillery go off all around him. "The sound of war," I remember him saying, "is indescribable."



    I got it all on tape and I still listen to his stories, not only about the war but about his life during the Depression. Amazing stuff.



    These are great men who lived during extraordinary times. By the time he was my age he had lived more life than I most likely will even if I get to 150 years old.



    But here I go eulogizing him before he's gone. I'd better stop before I get so sentimental I skip my next class and drive the 4 hours home to give him a hug.



    (end off-topic)



    [ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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  • Reply 53 of 98
    skip the class...go give him a hug.... sorry...i'm off topic too....you boy can go back to the us vs europe stuff...



    groverat, thanks for sharing...give him a HUGE hug the next time you see him....he'll like that more than he will probably admit... g





    ps...just because i am against the war doesn't mean i am against the military...and never against the men and women that serve....



    [ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
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  • Reply 54 of 98
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    [quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:

    <strong>



    I don't see the United States frothing at the mouth to enforce the will of the UN by using massive force to get Israel to give the land THEY stole back, even though they've been denying UN resolutions for THIRTY YEARS.



    So don't get all moral on us.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You mean the land taken during their wars with their neighbours?



    There hasn't been a unanimous UN resolution threatening serious consequences against Isreal either..



    Let's not start that shit here...it has nothing to do with this thread.
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  • Reply 55 of 98
    [quote]Hi ColanderOfDeath,

    What are you trying to do here ?

    Never learnt to be polite ? <hr></blockquote>



    Indeed I'm not being polite to you. You've ferreted out one of my character flaws. Keep working, I have several more!



    [quote]From what I understand, the criticism of France in the American press is verging on out and out propaganda. So hey ho.<hr></blockquote>



    Well I read three papers. USA Today in print which is a dumbed down newspaper good only for the Sports section, and the two local Seattle papers. I'm not going to pick through the articles for you but if you are legitimately interested in judging for yourself what is being reported in one part of the US then you can sample what one American reads here:



    <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/"; target="_blank">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/</a>;

    <a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/"; target="_blank">http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/</a>;
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  • Reply 56 of 98
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    [quote]Originally posted by Niconono:

    <strong>



    Yeah Turkey is closest to Iraq than I am. No argue here... But it's not so far away...

    (anyway, did you hear about Iraq troups moving close to Turkey's border ? I didn't)

    </strong><hr></blockquote>

    Patriot Missile batteries aren't the most effective tool for dealing with troops massing on your borders...so what about requesting missle defence equipment would lead you to expect Iraqi troops on the Turkey border?



    [quote]Originally posted by Niconono:

    <strong>

    Of course NK has nothing to do with Iraq. The point is that nobody's trying to convince the world to invade NK because of their bad weapons. Nobody cares about NK, maybe because they do not produce interesting things ?(oil ?, uranium?-people can die in silence there..)

    ---

    </strong><hr></blockquote>

    Or it's because it has been an ongoing situation in NK thathas shown responsiveness in the past to aggressive negotiations. Iraq has not. NK has no UN security council resolutions pending against it threatening serious consequences. Iraq Does.
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  • Reply 57 of 98
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Iraq is found to have illegal missiles that can reach essentially all of Turkey. Turkey asks for anti-missile defense weapons (Patriot missiles). France and Germany say no.



    Hmmm.
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  • Reply 58 of 98
    [quote]Originally posted by Tulkas:

    <strong>



    You mean the land taken during their wars with their neighbours?



    There hasn't been a unanimous UN resolution threatening serious consequences against Isreal either..



    Let's not start that shit here...it has nothing to do with this thread.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    No, I mean the land that Israel is illegally occupying in contravention of dozens of UN resolutions. It has everything to do with this thread.



    The point is, how can we prosecute a war against Iraq on the pretext that it's flouting the will of the UN when we don't care that its next-door neighbour has been doing exactly that for decades?



    <a href="http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~dsaah/Palestine_web/UN/"; target="_blank">Nice fat list of Security Council resolutions ignored by Israel and the US.</a>



    And then people get all moral about 'Old Europe'?



    Hypocrisy of the highest order.
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  • Reply 59 of 98
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Thegelding : i am very sorry to hear that.



    I have lost three of my grandparents the same year. Suddenly i feel like if i was older. I lose my first grand-parent and my favorite (he love to tease, and to kid just like me) at the age of 17. He was a war prisonner, and live in a german camp from 1939 to 1945, even if he escape two times unsucesfully.

    My other grandfather was a resistant, one of the few (not like this damn ass-hole named Papon) high graded civil servant who struggle against the nazis :



    <a href="http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/98/98-01/98-01-06/98-01-06-040.html"; target="_blank">http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/98/98-01/98-01-06/98-01-06-040.html</a>;



    <a href="http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/1998/1998-01/1998-01-06/1998-01-06-069.html"; target="_blank">http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/1998/1998-01/1998-01-06/1998-01-06-069.html</a>;

    . My two others grand-mothers died from the alzheimer disease, a terrible experience for their family. (it hurts when a mother did not recocnize anymore her daughter)



    [ 02-13-2003: Message edited by: Powerdoc ]</p>
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  • Reply 60 of 98
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    [quote]Originally posted by thegelding:

    <strong>my grandfather also fought in WWII and i love him dearly for it...wonderful stories, sad stories, but all stories of strength and will and sacrifice....



    sadly he passed away yesterday...

    happily he passed away while sitting in his favorite chair while watching The Price is Right...his second favortie show (the first being the lawrence welk show)...



    he was against bombing Iraq...he felt war needed great purposes and didn't think we have that at this time...



    he will be missed.....g



    <a href="http://www.welkshow.com/"; target="_blank">the welk show....</a>

    </strong><hr></blockquote>Wow . . . sorry to here that Gelding . . . I feel for you

    I never knew my Grandparents: My Idahoan side and my old French Family side



    My father fought in WW2, and then years later married a French woman . . . so there!!
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