High costs limiting adoption of Apple's AirPlay and Thunderbolt technologies

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  • Reply 41 of 47
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jonamac View Post


    The points you make about the blind tests are very valid and I've read all kinds of similar material in the past. I fear you'll never convince some though and that's fair enough, I respect them for their view. I just don't like CD audio being looked down on as MacDonald's audio. Logic playing all the tracks to a song before mixdown is beautiful, but that quality no more makes it to vinyl than it does CD.



    I know that. Unlike you, I'm not so willing to accept the snobbishness and outright lies. If they want to convince themselves that they're supermen, that's fine, but when they spend countless hours putting down the rest of the world, it offends me (just like snobby elitist artists, bibliophiles, etc who think that their view is more important than anyone else's offend me).



    The really sad part is that EVEN IF THESE FANATICS WERE RIGHT, 99% of the time, it would be impossible to tell.



    1. Very few recordings are available at their exacting standards. I would much rather listen to music I like than be forced to listen to the 0.01% of music that might be available to meet their standards.



    2. Background noise makes the distinctions meaningless. Normal background noise is something like 30-40 db (I'm not going to look it up). Even if they're playing their peaks at 110 db, today's s/n means that a large fraction of the sound will be completely inaudible.



    3. There's the point of diminishing returns. My system has fantastic Infinity speakers all around - and I probably have about $2,000 in speakers. Receiver and CD player are somewhat lower quality, but the sound quality is going to depend more on the speakers than the receiver (within limits, of course). I have an extremely listenable, accurate sound and greatly enjoy my music. I could spend 10 times as much (or more) on solid gold cables and all the other nonsense that these people are recommending - and the difference in my listening enjoyment would be absolutely imperceptible. At some point, the differences are so subtle that to hear them at all, you have to sit in a soundproof room and concentrate on the sound. Seems like a waste of time to me.



    4. At the levels of differences we're talking about, the super-subtle differences (when they exist at all) come down to personal preference. Why should I spend $100,000 on a system that is a little brighter - when a minor tweak to the equalizer would get the same effect?



    5. Even the best handled vinyl will occasionally have pops or pick up dust. And/or, it will require a lot of time spent cleaning everything. The insignificant differences that all the audiophiles are talking about don't make up for putting up with the pops and scratches.



    And, of course, the fact that the differences that most of these fanatics rave about have been conclusively DISproven again and again. When you carefully match volume and synchronize the sources properly, in one test, the listener couldn't even tell when the music was switched from one source to the other - and certainly couldn't tell which was which.
  • Reply 42 of 47
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bartfat View Post


    EDIT: I know apple's dock connector cable isn't very durable, I've seen it fray at the Apple Store and at my university's bookstore. But I'd expect something similar with third party cables too, given the abuse.



    Do you have any idea how much abuse cables get at the Apple Store or a bookstore?



    I've purchased third party cables - quite a few times. Roughly, 20% don't work out of the box, and another 30% fail within weeks. Many of the rest fail within the first year.



    My experience with Apple cables is quite different. Most of them are still working many years later. For example, I use my Macbook Pro every day - for hours. I just noticed that the charger has a small crack in the magnetic connector - after 4 years of daily use.



    Even though the third party cables are cheap (for a while, they were so cheap I'd buy 3 or 4 if I needed one, figuring that I'd definitely need a spare), I've decided it's not worth the bother. Aside from the outright failures, there are some erratic behaviors. My iPod connection in my car is unreliable with a third party cable, for example.
  • Reply 43 of 47
    [redacted] - just not going to add fuel to this rather fruitless discussion
  • Reply 44 of 47
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,752member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    I'm not. You seem to be, though.



    come on now it doesn't take that much effort on your part to look at the hardware requirements for a TB port nor Apple licensing restrictions that keep it expensive.



    Right now an engineer can go our an buy off the shelf many micro controllers, SoC and other processors with USB built in. Some are extremely cheap but more importantly just about anything performance need can be meet. Find me one micro controller with TB built in.

    Quote:

    Why don't you tell us the exact cost of licensing TB. I'll start it for you - Apple isn't charging anything for TB licenses. So tell us how much TB adds to the cost of a system - and explain how it will never be cost competitive.



    Apple is still putting restrictions on branding that imply high costs for simple items. More so Apples requirements seem to indicate that Apple views TB differently than many of the commenters in this thread. I've seen nothing from Apple that indicates that they see TB replacing USB anytime soon. Instead it appears to be positioned to fill duties where USB doesn't have the required capability. USB will remain what it has always been on the Mac, a low speed I/O port.

    Quote:

    Yes, I realize that there are some people who buy the cheapest of everything. If a system is 20 times better but costs $0.05 more, they'll never buy it. But that's not the measure of whether something is cost competitive.



    do You really expect to see notebook sized drives with TB interfaces?

    Quote:

    So just how do you come to the conclusion that TB will not be cost competitive? Let's have some facts instead of your inane assertions.



    Facts are right there all you have to be is willing to see them. So I will turn this around, YOU show me where Apple has indicated that TB is expected to replace USB. I suspect you will have a very hard time doing that because TB is designed to take off from where USB gives up the ghost.



    Or answer this how does the mandatory inclusion of both an in and out port, the cross bar switch and the required fast hardware not effect price. There is nothing inane about my comments as they reflect what I'm seeing form Apple and more importantly reflect where we see manufactures targeting new products. Maybe in two or three years we will see cost effective chips that have everything integrated on board but the rest of the world doesn't stand still in that time frame either.



    The saddest part of this whole fiasco is that Apple has not yet realized that there continual search for the perfect serial I/O bus is not a replacement for a machine with a couple of real PCI-Express slots. Apple has be no this train to no where since the Original Mac. Each and every time they have come out with a new bus the masses rise up in a knee jerk fashion exclaiming that this is the end of PC buses, yet in reality these I/O ports end up being Apple only crap with low adoption. Low adoption is another stone to in the wall blocking cost effective hardware. It might be a different story if we where to see a mad rush from the PC marketplace to implement TB on Windows and Linux machines but we have seen nothing. In the end this will be just like Firewire only more expensive as there seems to be zero interest outside of the Apple world.
  • Reply 45 of 47
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Each and every time they have come out with a new bus the masses rise up in a knee jerk fashion exclaiming that this is the end of PC buses, yet in reality these I/O ports end up being Apple only crap with low adoption.



    Good thing that USB never took off, we'd have been in a world of hurt.



    Quote:

    In the end this will be just like Firewire only more expensive as there seems to be zero interest outside of the Apple world.



    Unless Intel refuses to make boards without the port on them.
  • Reply 46 of 47
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,752member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    I know that. Unlike you, I'm not so willing to accept the snobbishness and outright lies. If they want to convince themselves that they're supermen, that's fine, but when they spend countless hours putting down the rest of the world, it offends me (just like snobby elitist artists, bibliophiles, etc who think that their view is more important than anyone else's offend me).



    I do have to admit that my hearing is rather crappy. Also many people involved deeply in music have really fantastic hearing. That being said much of audiophile marketing is about exploitation.

    Quote:

    The really sad part is that EVEN IF THESE FANATICS WERE RIGHT, 99% of the time, it would be impossible to tell.



    1. Very few recordings are available at their exacting standards. I would much rather listen to music I like than be forced to listen to the 0.01% of music that might be available to meet their standards.



    Most of the music I listen to comes over an FM radio channel. Worst usually when I'm driving. And then only if I can't bear whatever talk is happening on the radio.

    Quote:

    2. Background noise makes the distinctions meaningless. Normal background noise is something like 30-40 db (I'm not going to look it up). Even if they're playing their peaks at 110 db, today's s/n means that a large fraction of the sound will be completely inaudible.



    Actually it is possible to get much better dynamic range than that. However nothing setup in the home matches live performance. Most people striving to obtain the experience of a live performance would be better off saving their money for tickets to such performances.

    Quote:

    3. There's the point of diminishing returns. My system has fantastic Infinity speakers all around - and I probably have about $2,000 in speakers. Receiver and CD player are somewhat lower quality, but the sound quality is going to depend more on the speakers than the receiver (within limits, of course). I have an extremely listenable, accurate sound and greatly enjoy my music. I could spend 10 times as much (or more) on solid gold cables and all the other nonsense that these people are recommending - and the difference in my listening enjoyment would be absolutely imperceptible. At some point, the differences are so subtle that to hear them at all, you have to sit in a soundproof room and concentrate on the sound. Seems like a waste of time to me.



    Transducers are very important.

    Quote:

    4. At the levels of differences we're talking about, the super-subtle differences (when they exist at all) come down to personal preference. Why should I spend $100,000 on a system that is a little brighter - when a minor tweak to the equalizer would get the same effect?



    Or a different set of speakers or just repositioning the current speakers. In the end you still have a system that sounds like a stereo and can't possibly replicate a live performance.



    I'm not saying equipment isn't important. Just start a discussion with an experience musician when it comes to Guitar amplifiers. Like you though I think many people have been fooled into believing what they have been sold.

    Quote:

    5. Even the best handled vinyl will occasionally have pops or pick up dust. And/or, it will require a lot of time spent cleaning everything. The insignificant differences that all the audiophiles are talking about don't make up for putting up with the pops and scratches.



    Yeah like vinyl is all that great of a storage medium.

    Quote:

    And, of course, the fact that the differences that most of these fanatics rave about have been conclusively DISproven again and again. When you carefully match volume and synchronize the sources properly, in one test, the listener couldn't even tell when the music was switched from one source to the other - and certainly couldn't tell which was which.



    For the vast majority of the people out there they will never hear the difference. That is as long as the equipment operates in a similar fashion. Drive a specific amp to clip or distort and of course people will hear it. Sometimes I liken HiFi salesman to later day Snake Oil salesman.
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