[quote]...May it serve as a constant reminder of our past so that Americans in the future will never again be denied their constitutional rights and may the remembrance of that experience serve to advance the evolution of the human spirit...
- Plaque at the Poston Relocation Center1
How could such a tragedy have occurred in a democratic society that prides itself on individual rights and freedoms?... I have brooded about this whole episode on and off for the past three decades...
- Milton S. Eisenhower, in The President Is Calling3
Racial tensions in the United States right now are NOTHING compared to what they were even 40 years ago. If you think demonization of Arabs in America is going to be worse than the demonization of the Black in old America you obviously do not live here and see what goes on.
Yes, blacks were treated horribly and racist white evil bastards did it and kept the oppressive system alive. I know that better than you because I live here.
I ask you, giant, what indicates that a more liberal America with no real history of hating Arabs (when compared to hating Blacks) will lead to a Holocaust against Arabs? Hmm?
People around here (I live in TEXAS, mind you) hated Arabs for maybe 15 minutes after 9/11. A few idiots spray painted a few anti-Muslim sentiments on 9/11 night or 9/12 afternoon.
Right now there is no under-current of Arab hatred. I live here, I know. My freaking grandparents don't like the idea of racial profiling, and they are conservatives who were raised in the horribly racist Southern culture of the early 20th century.
So tell me, giant, what about American society indicates to you that a few instances of racial profiling is an indicator of a Holocaust-to-come? Hmm?
No one is going to argue that it's good, but to label it an obvious pre-cursor to Holocaust: America is foolish.
One thing a LOT (again, not all) these people have in common is belief in fundamental Islam. Perhaps we should be using religious profiling?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So let's start profiling fundamental christians, too, since some of their member have a history of bambings. Hell, there have been more terror attacks on the US perpetrated by Christians than by muslims.
So let's start profiling fundamental christians, too, since some of their member have a history of bambings. Hell, there have been more terror attacks on the US perpetrated by Christians than by muslims.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know that better than you because I live here...
I live here, I know.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Could you be more arrogant? Did you maybe consider that (gasp!) I might have lived in Houston for a few years? Or maybe that I still travel to texas regularly, or will be there for a while starting in may?
You have been on a rampage of assumptions. Stop while you are behind.
What about your stop-over in Houston gave you the indication that the U.S. is just prime for a Holocaust?
Funny that you try to grill me for making assumptions when the entire premise of your ludicrous argument assumes that everyone in America is just waiting to turn into a murderous racist.
<strong>What about your stop-over in Houston gave you the indication that the U.S. is just prime for a Holocaust?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if a couple years is really a 'stop-over,' but, hey, we all have a different sense of time.
It seems, groverat, that our disagreement is this:
While racial profiling causes racism, you believe that it will hit a ceiling and not erupt into a genocide.
While that is certainly a possibility, so is the possibility of a genocide. Why? Two things could bring this about: fear and unanticipated dramatic events. If anything, 9.11 has shown us that the extremely unexpected can actually happen. Americans have been living for a long time in a fairly secure environment. But things can change dramatically. As such, we can not assume that our predictions of the future are accurate.
What if, for instance, two large-scale terror attacks were perpetrated by asian islamic groups on major US cities. The fear factor (especially if we were unaware of the actual race of the attackers, an element I am including to demonstrate that facts don't necessarily matter in cases of panic) would be astounding. There is the potential for a huge backlash against Arabs. And this is without official racial profiling.
Now say the same situation comes about after a year of official racial profiling against arabs. State-sanctioned discrimination based on color. People would be accustomed to thinking of arabs as dangerous people. The backlash would be hugely dramatic. If you think that you won't see arabs hanging from poles in every city, you haven't studied enough American history.
This ladie-da, 'the future is peachy' attitude most Americans have is unrealistic. THINGS CHANGE. The US will not exist forever. It might not even make it another 50 years. It is very realistic to expect that the country might cease to be the USA within our lifetimes. But it is also realistic to expect that it could continue to be the most powerful nation in the world for a century, although it will be surprising if it can do so and stay a beacon of freedom.
I see strong parallels between the belief in the 'new economy' and the belief that america can escape inevitable political cycles. They are both beliefs founded not only in severe miopia, but also severe memory loss.
Are you honestly trying to convince anybody of anything or do you just enjoy declaring yourself morally better, and everyone else ignorant, stupid, clueless and uninformed?
I mean if all of us are so bad off by your declarations, why even waste your time with us? We obviously are incapable of thinking on such high, informed, intellectual level like yourself.
Your fits of profanity, rants and accusations.... gee I don't understand why everyone doesn't agree with you already.
The point about racial profiling leading to genocide is just pessimism at its most dire. Racial profiling, while dangerous and misleading, doesn't mean a future holocaust is inevitable. That's such a fatalistic projection. I mean, things can and do get better. I won't give up the future like that. I don't want to be that pessimistic again. I'd kill myself with that outlook. I try to have a little faith in the potential of mankind, including arabs, muslims, the French, the Iraqis, the Americans or whoever.
I take it that in Giant's estimation, Americans are sooo inherently stupid (how stupid are they? -the crowd asks), that we could not help but to regress into bloodthirsty, genocidal psychopaths if some government agency attempts to use profiling that includes ethnicity elements to track down those who would harm us. He feels that the notion of "identify and intercept those Arab individuals who wish to harm us" would devolve to "kill all Arabs" without at least one guy protesting as to what's going on (evidently, all the obsessively humanocentric Liberals would spontaneously disappear in such a world). At the very least, he feels leaving a few critical security paths open is perfectly warranted so that his girlfriend could be spared of some inconvenient scrutiny.
I'm sure some of you have had intelligent things to say on both sides of this divide, but I haven't read any of it yet, I just have to respond to the title of this thread.
"Racial profiling is stupid and dangerous"
NO it isn't, it's useful within responsible investigation, or a whole taxonomy of "profiling" of which race is but one category. It is only dangerous if it becomes the defining criteria, the litmus test (of action) for investigators/patrolmen. Pretending too strongly that it is perfectly objective and apolitical is dangerous and stupid, because race is loaded, but so is pretending that it is inherently racist, stupid, dangerous, off-limits... etc etc. It isn't either.
Race, community, location, sex, orientation, religion, economic status, marital status, education, these all help create a profile. A profile is no guarantee of success, but it is not a hinderance, it makes it possible for people to work, to put a lense on all the possiblities and thoughfully focus down without being overcome by details and while keeping relevant details in focus.
Activists will have you believe that police only use race, that's bullshit. But you need to be responsible in your thinking.
Fo example:
In Toronto, the current police chief (Fantino) was, as a young investigator, charged with studying pedophilia and producing a report about it. He found that most pedophilia is homosexual in nature. Simple. Now the gay community predictably went ballistic, but what was the poor guy supposed to do? Not report his findings because they "seemed" to point to a group that might get offended? Interestingly, he did not say that most gays are pedophiles, nothing of the sort: his statements were not of an IFF (if and only if) nature.
If I say most serial killers are white, I AM NOT saying most whites are serial killers. See the difference. The pedophile-gay example is very useful because of the delicacy of thought it required from investigators. Society tends to limit strangers' access to children to same sex groupings (boy scouts and girl guides), given that it's more important for a pedophile to fvck a kid, any kid, then it's not surprising that these men attack boys, since those are what they have access to. Within a family, heterosexual incest may be more common becase within a family pedophiles would not be limited to same-sex adult-child associations (we go from man-boy, to father daughter.) Useful information, but not if we limit ourselves to one category. However, the limits of a category are no reason to do away with a category altogether, especially NOT because of political pressure. You just need the patience to combine it intelligently with as many well conceived categories as possible and you must remember that it is no replacemet for details, merely a lense to put over details.
So tell me, giant, what about American society indicates to you that a few instances of racial profiling is an indicator of a Holocaust-to-come? Hmm?
No one is going to argue that it's good, but to label it an obvious pre-cursor to Holocaust: America is foolish.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Though I don't think we Americans will see our government firing up the ovens, I will say that I have seen and read reports that many middle eastern immigrants are leaving the US in droves. Because of threats to their lives and the treatment many received when they were ordered to report to the INS last month.
I haven't found a link to a report on this exodus but they're out there...but wouldn't anyone be fearful if they are treated like <a href="http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1558352.php"; target="_blank">this</a>?
I am all for whatever way possible (within the Costitution) to root out the evil ones from the US but I feel that we won't get too far if we keep harrassing so many innocent people in the process.
And even though you don't see racial hatred towards middle eastern people in your hometown groverat...it is still happening around the US and Texas. It just doesn't get the attention in the media anymore.
What's wrong with reporting to the INS? That's what all immigrants are supposed to do. Otherwise, you are here illegally. The INS isn't like Planned Parenthood or anything, they're not here for your convenience on a volunteer basis. When you arrive in the US, you are supposed to report your status to the INS for security and to move ahead in the naturalization process. You have to pay taxes and own property legally here.
So one one hand it seems silly to single out muslims when we have tons of illegal immigrants here that should be touching base with the INS if they want to stay here. On the other hand, it's what these people should have been doing all along. Unless you were a stowaway on a ship or plane and slipped past customs, you would know that you have to either leave the country when your visa/visitation status runs out, or else follow the naturalization process through the INS.
And, no, that is not some Pat Buchanan anti-immigrant rhetoric I'm spewing. Both sides of my family emmigrated to the US at the turn of the century. There's no shame in our immigration policy. These people have to learn the responsiblities we all have as citizens. That's what the INS is supposed to be there for. Unfortunately, the agency has to chase peope around 24/7.
<strong>While racial profiling causes racism, you believe that it will hit a ceiling and not erupt into a genocide.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not in all cases. Of course genocide is a possibility. A very remote possibility that requires certain social factors to go through. Those factors are not found in the United States of America.
You want to say proposed racial profiling in the U.S. is the first step towards genocide, I call bullshit on your melodramatic ranting.
[quote]<strong>If anything, 9.11 has shown us that the extremely unexpected can actually happen. Americans have been living for a long time in a fairly secure environment. But things can change dramatically. As such, we can not assume that our predictions of the future are accurate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
9/11 was a total shock and tell me, social scientist, how popular was the idea of locking Arabs up in concentration camps and stuffing them into ovens? (I'll give you a hint: not very)
[quote]<strong>What if, for instance, two large-scale terror attacks were perpetrated by asian islamic groups on major US cities. The fear factor (especially if we were unaware of the actual race of the attackers, an element I am including to demonstrate that facts don't necessarily matter in cases of panic) would be astounding. There is the potential for a huge backlash against Arabs. And this is without official racial profiling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, let's say two cities are attacked, we can triple the violent anti-Arab reaction and maybe 12 Arabs in the U.S. will be killed out of 300+ million people in the U.S.
Sounds like Nazi Germany all over again!
There is potential that a meteor will come out of the sky and kill Steve Jobs.
[quote]<strong>Now say the same situation comes about after a year of official racial profiling against arabs. State-sanctioned discrimination based on color. People would be accustomed to thinking of arabs as dangerous people. The backlash would be hugely dramatic. If you think that you won't see arabs hanging from poles in every city, you haven't studied enough American history.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Would that be genocide? Would that be the Holocaust?
[quote]<strong>This ladie-da, 'the future is peachy' attitude most Americans have is unrealistic. THINGS CHANGE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can make these arguments without being a drama queen, without invoking the tragic deaths of 6 million people to express fear that a few hundred may die.
If you ever wonder why you never get intelligent debate, analyze your own words. There is no reason but to troll to start out like that.
Why can't you just say "Racial profiling might be dangerous. A population constantly told that a certain group is dangerous are far more likely to lash out violently against that group." without garbage like, "THE HOLOCAUST!!"?
<strong>damn, grover, you made your point, ok? Could you let it go so that we can argue the sheer stupidity of racial profiling. Please?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I agree. All illegal immigrants trying to cross our borders illegally should be shot on sight...maybe that'll send a message.
As far as the need for the INS and immigrants to report to them when called for...of course. But it doesn't mean that we treat many as the Jews were treated in Nazi Germany. No matter who/what/where they are...they should be treated with dignity. Root out the bad ones from the good with professionalism...not ignorance and thuggery(sp)...
Comments
[quote]...May it serve as a constant reminder of our past so that Americans in the future will never again be denied their constitutional rights and may the remembrance of that experience serve to advance the evolution of the human spirit...
- Plaque at the Poston Relocation Center1
How could such a tragedy have occurred in a democratic society that prides itself on individual rights and freedoms?... I have brooded about this whole episode on and off for the past three decades...
- Milton S. Eisenhower, in The President Is Calling3
<hr></blockquote>
<strong>Um...yes it is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Based on what logic?
Racial tensions in the United States right now are NOTHING compared to what they were even 40 years ago. If you think demonization of Arabs in America is going to be worse than the demonization of the Black in old America you obviously do not live here and see what goes on.
Yes, blacks were treated horribly and racist white evil bastards did it and kept the oppressive system alive. I know that better than you because I live here.
I ask you, giant, what indicates that a more liberal America with no real history of hating Arabs (when compared to hating Blacks) will lead to a Holocaust against Arabs? Hmm?
People around here (I live in TEXAS, mind you) hated Arabs for maybe 15 minutes after 9/11. A few idiots spray painted a few anti-Muslim sentiments on 9/11 night or 9/12 afternoon.
Right now there is no under-current of Arab hatred. I live here, I know. My freaking grandparents don't like the idea of racial profiling, and they are conservatives who were raised in the horribly racist Southern culture of the early 20th century.
So tell me, giant, what about American society indicates to you that a few instances of racial profiling is an indicator of a Holocaust-to-come? Hmm?
No one is going to argue that it's good, but to label it an obvious pre-cursor to Holocaust: America is foolish.
<strong>
One thing a LOT (again, not all) these people have in common is belief in fundamental Islam. Perhaps we should be using religious profiling?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So let's start profiling fundamental christians, too, since some of their member have a history of bambings. Hell, there have been more terror attacks on the US perpetrated by Christians than by muslims.
<strong>
So let's start profiling fundamental christians, too, since some of their member have a history of bambings. Hell, there have been more terror attacks on the US perpetrated by Christians than by muslims.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And so it begins.... sigh.
<strong>
And so it begins.... sigh.
Silence, infidel.
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>
I know that better than you because I live here...
I live here, I know.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Could you be more arrogant? Did you maybe consider that (gasp!) I might have lived in Houston for a few years? Or maybe that I still travel to texas regularly, or will be there for a while starting in may?
You have been on a rampage of assumptions. Stop while you are behind.
<strong>I was being sarcastic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry. It's hard to tell because of the number of people here that would say that for real.
Funny that you try to grill me for making assumptions when the entire premise of your ludicrous argument assumes that everyone in America is just waiting to turn into a murderous racist.
<strong>
Silence, infidel.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>What about your stop-over in Houston gave you the indication that the U.S. is just prime for a Holocaust?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if a couple years is really a 'stop-over,' but, hey, we all have a different sense of time.
It seems, groverat, that our disagreement is this:
While racial profiling causes racism, you believe that it will hit a ceiling and not erupt into a genocide.
While that is certainly a possibility, so is the possibility of a genocide. Why? Two things could bring this about: fear and unanticipated dramatic events. If anything, 9.11 has shown us that the extremely unexpected can actually happen. Americans have been living for a long time in a fairly secure environment. But things can change dramatically. As such, we can not assume that our predictions of the future are accurate.
What if, for instance, two large-scale terror attacks were perpetrated by asian islamic groups on major US cities. The fear factor (especially if we were unaware of the actual race of the attackers, an element I am including to demonstrate that facts don't necessarily matter in cases of panic) would be astounding. There is the potential for a huge backlash against Arabs. And this is without official racial profiling.
Now say the same situation comes about after a year of official racial profiling against arabs. State-sanctioned discrimination based on color. People would be accustomed to thinking of arabs as dangerous people. The backlash would be hugely dramatic. If you think that you won't see arabs hanging from poles in every city, you haven't studied enough American history.
This ladie-da, 'the future is peachy' attitude most Americans have is unrealistic. THINGS CHANGE. The US will not exist forever. It might not even make it another 50 years. It is very realistic to expect that the country might cease to be the USA within our lifetimes. But it is also realistic to expect that it could continue to be the most powerful nation in the world for a century, although it will be surprising if it can do so and stay a beacon of freedom.
I see strong parallels between the belief in the 'new economy' and the belief that america can escape inevitable political cycles. They are both beliefs founded not only in severe miopia, but also severe memory loss.
[ 02-14-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
Are you honestly trying to convince anybody of anything or do you just enjoy declaring yourself morally better, and everyone else ignorant, stupid, clueless and uninformed?
I mean if all of us are so bad off by your declarations, why even waste your time with us? We obviously are incapable of thinking on such
Your fits of profanity, rants and accusations.... gee I don't understand why everyone doesn't agree with you already.
Nick
Hmmm...
"Racial profiling is stupid and dangerous"
NO it isn't, it's useful within responsible investigation, or a whole taxonomy of "profiling" of which race is but one category. It is only dangerous if it becomes the defining criteria, the litmus test (of action) for investigators/patrolmen. Pretending too strongly that it is perfectly objective and apolitical is dangerous and stupid, because race is loaded, but so is pretending that it is inherently racist, stupid, dangerous, off-limits... etc etc. It isn't either.
Race, community, location, sex, orientation, religion, economic status, marital status, education, these all help create a profile. A profile is no guarantee of success, but it is not a hinderance, it makes it possible for people to work, to put a lense on all the possiblities and thoughfully focus down without being overcome by details and while keeping relevant details in focus.
Activists will have you believe that police only use race, that's bullshit. But you need to be responsible in your thinking.
Fo example:
In Toronto, the current police chief (Fantino) was, as a young investigator, charged with studying pedophilia and producing a report about it. He found that most pedophilia is homosexual in nature. Simple. Now the gay community predictably went ballistic, but what was the poor guy supposed to do? Not report his findings because they "seemed" to point to a group that might get offended? Interestingly, he did not say that most gays are pedophiles, nothing of the sort: his statements were not of an IFF (if and only if) nature.
If I say most serial killers are white, I AM NOT saying most whites are serial killers. See the difference. The pedophile-gay example is very useful because of the delicacy of thought it required from investigators. Society tends to limit strangers' access to children to same sex groupings (boy scouts and girl guides), given that it's more important for a pedophile to fvck a kid, any kid, then it's not surprising that these men attack boys, since those are what they have access to. Within a family, heterosexual incest may be more common becase within a family pedophiles would not be limited to same-sex adult-child associations (we go from man-boy, to father daughter.) Useful information, but not if we limit ourselves to one category. However, the limits of a category are no reason to do away with a category altogether, especially NOT because of political pressure. You just need the patience to combine it intelligently with as many well conceived categories as possible and you must remember that it is no replacemet for details, merely a lense to put over details.
<strong>
So tell me, giant, what about American society indicates to you that a few instances of racial profiling is an indicator of a Holocaust-to-come? Hmm?
No one is going to argue that it's good, but to label it an obvious pre-cursor to Holocaust: America is foolish.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Though I don't think we Americans will see our government firing up the ovens, I will say that I have seen and read reports that many middle eastern immigrants are leaving the US in droves. Because of threats to their lives and the treatment many received when they were ordered to report to the INS last month.
I haven't found a link to a report on this exodus but they're out there...but wouldn't anyone be fearful if they are treated like <a href="http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1558352.php"; target="_blank">this</a>?
<a href="http://my.aol.com/news/news_special.psp?newsid=ins"; target="_blank">Another article</a>.
I am all for whatever way possible (within the Costitution) to root out the evil ones from the US but I feel that we won't get too far if we keep harrassing so many innocent people in the process.
And even though you don't see racial hatred towards middle eastern people in your hometown groverat...it is still happening around the US and Texas. It just doesn't get the attention in the media anymore.
So one one hand it seems silly to single out muslims when we have tons of illegal immigrants here that should be touching base with the INS if they want to stay here. On the other hand, it's what these people should have been doing all along. Unless you were a stowaway on a ship or plane and slipped past customs, you would know that you have to either leave the country when your visa/visitation status runs out, or else follow the naturalization process through the INS.
And, no, that is not some Pat Buchanan anti-immigrant rhetoric I'm spewing. Both sides of my family emmigrated to the US at the turn of the century. There's no shame in our immigration policy. These people have to learn the responsiblities we all have as citizens. That's what the INS is supposed to be there for. Unfortunately, the agency has to chase peope around 24/7.
<strong>While racial profiling causes racism, you believe that it will hit a ceiling and not erupt into a genocide.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not in all cases. Of course genocide is a possibility. A very remote possibility that requires certain social factors to go through. Those factors are not found in the United States of America.
You want to say proposed racial profiling in the U.S. is the first step towards genocide, I call bullshit on your melodramatic ranting.
[quote]<strong>If anything, 9.11 has shown us that the extremely unexpected can actually happen. Americans have been living for a long time in a fairly secure environment. But things can change dramatically. As such, we can not assume that our predictions of the future are accurate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
9/11 was a total shock and tell me, social scientist, how popular was the idea of locking Arabs up in concentration camps and stuffing them into ovens? (I'll give you a hint: not very)
[quote]<strong>What if, for instance, two large-scale terror attacks were perpetrated by asian islamic groups on major US cities. The fear factor (especially if we were unaware of the actual race of the attackers, an element I am including to demonstrate that facts don't necessarily matter in cases of panic) would be astounding. There is the potential for a huge backlash against Arabs. And this is without official racial profiling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, let's say two cities are attacked, we can triple the violent anti-Arab reaction and maybe 12 Arabs in the U.S. will be killed out of 300+ million people in the U.S.
Sounds like Nazi Germany all over again!
There is potential that a meteor will come out of the sky and kill Steve Jobs.
[quote]<strong>Now say the same situation comes about after a year of official racial profiling against arabs. State-sanctioned discrimination based on color. People would be accustomed to thinking of arabs as dangerous people. The backlash would be hugely dramatic. If you think that you won't see arabs hanging from poles in every city, you haven't studied enough American history.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Would that be genocide? Would that be the Holocaust?
[quote]<strong>This ladie-da, 'the future is peachy' attitude most Americans have is unrealistic. THINGS CHANGE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can make these arguments without being a drama queen, without invoking the tragic deaths of 6 million people to express fear that a few hundred may die.
If you ever wonder why you never get intelligent debate, analyze your own words. There is no reason but to troll to start out like that.
Why can't you just say "Racial profiling might be dangerous. A population constantly told that a certain group is dangerous are far more likely to lash out violently against that group." without garbage like, "THE HOLOCAUST!!"?
<strong>damn, grover, you made your point, ok? Could you let it go so that we can argue the sheer stupidity of racial profiling. Please?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I agree. All illegal immigrants trying to cross our borders illegally should be shot on sight...maybe that'll send a message.
As far as the need for the INS and immigrants to report to them when called for...of course. But it doesn't mean that we treat many as the Jews were treated in Nazi Germany. No matter who/what/where they are...they should be treated with dignity. Root out the bad ones from the good with professionalism...not ignorance and thuggery(sp)...