I wish we could get the an iOS-based Apple Home Server. I have no need for a AEBS with a HDD for Time Machine backups. I want a multi drive cube that is the central hub for all media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
iOS-based means the version of "OS X" that runs on ARM processors. Mac OS-based means X86-based processors. I don't see why Apple would use Atom or better processors in a home server when their A5 chips are fully capable of running a home server.
Depends on your definition of home server. Mine would need to be able to rip DVDs and do iMovie and iPhoto assuming that the rest of the household is running iPads. For that a mini + a 4 bay TB RAID array seems well suited as a home server.
If you assume something like an iMac or MBP in your home setup then any ol' NAS would work.
Oh friggin boo hoo. One file in a series of backups will get corrupted because of a bit. You shouldn't be relying on one backup anyway if your information is THAT critical.
Frankly, how or why you back up your stuff is irrelevant. If Apple markets something as one thing, and yet the MAIN component manufacturer say it is not, then obviously Apple is deceiving its customers, and the only real argument here is the degree of deception. How you intend to use it - even if you just stick it in your refrigerator as a weight to keep the taco shells from flying around when you close the door - doesn't give Apple the right to make spurious claims about its product. That is especially true for Apple, who certainly markets to the dull-witted crowd who want to able to blindly plug something in and have it "just work," and keep things so simple that the user never has much more to do than push the on'off switch.
Frankly, how or why you back up your stuff is irrelevant. If Apple markets something as one thing, and yet the MAIN component manufacturer say it is not, then obviously Apple is deceiving its customers, and the only real argument here is the degree of deception.
Where did Apple's component supplier state that it's not 'server-grade'?
Hint: the fact that they offer an even higher end drive doesn't indicate that it's not server grade.
Amazing how the Apple haters continue to make the same stupid arguments that failed 3 years ago.
"[Update] According to Western Digital, this disk is a general public model. There are also similar models for servers, but they are more expensive as they have a lower bit error rate 1x1015 while this one has 1x1014, 600,000 load/unload cycles (300,000 for this one) and is covered by a 5 years warranty, while this one is covered for 3 years."
"Server Class" is such great marketing because it means absolutely nothing!! I just had the drive in my iMac 27 die ...my Time Capsule saved me but I'm going to be employing TC backup and iCloud backup in the near future to prevent catastrophic dataloss and yes pics of my pets getting lost would be catastrophic lol (actually I don't own pets but you get the point)
As for RAID
If I ever set up a RAID array it will be a RAID-10.
People ...avoid parity striping if you can rebuilds are slow. Remember that because a RAID-5 has to calculate parity and stripe it on every write you basically have 3 or more drives that do not write any faster than a single drives speed (you do get aggregate read) .
Now you take 4 drives and mirror a pair and then strip that mirror you get much better write performance and pretty solid read performance and if a drive dies in the mirrored pair the rebuild is fast.
The established distinction between a consumer grade and enterprise class hard drive is that enterprise class hard drives are tested more thoroughly as to guarantee over 1 million hours Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF). This assumes 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week usage. Here is a good summary of the issue.
Sorry to say, but I didn't think that article was very good. It never even mentioned *what* hard drive was being used in the Time Capsule, let alone whether it was rated for more than 1 million MTBF. Yes, as you mention, this was found out later but through other means not mentioned or hinted at in the article.
Current Google searches for the definition of "server grade" is just littered with articles about the latest Time Capsule.
I'm willing to start to back off from this debate, we all clearly have established our positions and opinions. Thought I'd have a little fun with the meme above.
I wonder why the Apple-bashers think that if they keep repeating the same lie that it becomes true.
There is no such legal or standard definition of 'server grade'. Period. End of discussion (except that the Apple haters will continue to spread the same lie).
I only have 5 Apple computers, an ATV, an AP base station, 4 express stations and an ipod in the house. I have owned dozens of Macintoshes and other Apple products over the years.
I bought my first Mac in 1994 and I was one of the die hard people who kept that company alive when everyone else declared it on its death bed.
I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.
I only have 5 Apple computers, an ATV, an AP base station, 4 express stations and an ipod in the house. I have owned dozens of Macintoshes and other Apple products over the years.
I bought my first Mac in 1994 and I was one of the die hard people who kept that company alive when everyone else declared it on its death bed.
I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.
Don't bother. Common sense and reasonable interpretations of "server grade" makes you an Apple-Hater!!!1!1!1!1
No, they aren't. In this case, the RE4-GP and Caviar Green use identical hardware. The RE4-GP has some firmware optimizations for use in RAIDs that no one using a Time Capsule will see, and a slightly better warranty. But the shorter warranty on the Caviar Green is still years longer than Apple's warranty on the Time Capsule.
The RE4-GPs are built to tighter tolerances. Whether you want to call this binning or better QA is up to you but they are slightly better drives and tested more. Not that it seems to matter all that much for DOA/Infant mortalities. The Carnegie Mellon study pretty much put to rest that the MTBF numbers provided by drive makers really meant a whole lot in actual use.
That said, folks here would STILL be bitching if Apple had used RE4-GPs since they top out at 2GB and cost more. Folks would also STILL be bitching if they used the AV-GP which are meant for 24/7 DVR-like applications since they aren't enterprise drives either despite having 1M hours MTBF.
Given that "server grade" is a meaningless term other than drives that appear in servers the WD is a great drive for the TC. Folks here would bitch that an Apple mini-based Home Server would be false advertising since it wouldn't be rack mountable, have ECC memory or have a Xeon inside. Oh yeah, and be packing a WD Caviar Green.
The old litmus test of being the same drives as in the XServes doesn't work anymore. I guess the nearest equivalent are the drives shipping in the Mac Pro Server. These are most likely Caviar Blacks like the regular Mac Pros. If they are then Apple's statement still holds...they're using the same class drives in the TC as they are in their "server" lines.
"[Update] According to Western Digital, this disk is a general public model. There are also similar models for servers, but they are more expensive as they have a lower bit error rate 1x1015 while this one has 1x1014, 600,000 load/unload cycles (300,000 for this one) and is covered by a 5 years warranty, while this one is covered for 3 years."
You can repeat that until you're blue in the face. The fact that it is sold to consumers does not establish that it isn't server grade. The fact that they have even better drives does not establish that it isn't server grade.
Server grade means, quite simply, that it can be used it servers. It can be and it has been - so it is server grade no matter how much you may wish to whine and moan.
[QUOTE=Gary54;1890562I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you show us WD's site where it says that you can't use the Green in a server? And tell us why you're not all over HP for using the Green in servers?
BTW, when did you make up the 'logic' that "enterprise class" means the same thing as "server grade"? Show me an official industry reference that supports that.
So far, in spite of endless whining and moaning over the 3 years, not a single person has come up with an industry standard or legal definition that precludes what Apple is doing.
Just got off the phone after speaking to Drobo. They recommend the WD Black drives over the Greens simply because they are a better drive, not because any WD server advertisement. The Drobo tech said that the Green drives might have a bit higher failure rate but nothing to warrant against using them in a Drobo array or any other array for that matter. He said that all drives will fail no matter what and you get what you pay for. In short, Greens drives are good, while Black drives are better.
You can repeat that until you're blue in the face. The fact that it is sold to consumers does not establish that it isn't server grade. The fact that they have even better drives does not establish that it isn't server grade.
Server grade means, quite simply, that it can be used it servers. It can be and it has been - so it is server grade no matter how much you may wish to whine and moan.
Why don't you show us WD's site where it says that you can't use the Green in a server? And tell us why you're not all over HP for using the Green in servers?
BTW, when did you make up the 'logic' that "enterprise class" means the same thing as "server grade"? Show me an official industry reference that supports that.
So far, in spite of endless whining and moaning over the 3 years, not a single person has come up with an industry standard or legal definition that precludes what Apple is doing.
can be used as a "server" Any old hunk of junk can be used as a server. Hell, I used to use a IIci as a server. Because a computer can be used as a server does not make a piece of hardware "sever grade" "server class" or "enterprise class" intended for mission critical 27/7 commercial use. That is a determination by the manufacture of the drive.
To suggest it is, is false advertising.
What would be accurate, to the point truth in advertising is "low power, cool running, long lasting green drive"
Which in consideration of the application, is a better hardware choice. No one needs a high performance drive in a Time Capsule. Low power, cool running is the ticket.
Say what you do and do what you say. We get enough spin doctoring double think out of DC
Any of you ever watch Steve Jobs' introduction of the very first Time Capsule @ Macworld in January of 2008? They were 500GB/1TB for $299/$499 at the time and Steve goes out of his way to re-iterate how it's server grade, as in not just any drive, it's "very reliable". The graphic behind him shows the Time Capsule with the blue "802.11n" logo to the left and "Server Grade" to the right of a giant picture of the first ever Time Capsule. It was actually the very first item of that now 3 1/2 year-old Macworld event. Yes, I've watched them all and that just goes to show you how sick I am. (<-- which is why I need that)
So that's really all there is to it as far as Apple's claims as to the meaning, or rather complete lack thereof, of the term "server grade". That's all Steve Jobs said about what "server grade" means to Apple as far as the product Time Capsule is concerned: "a really reliable hard drive". Wow, that's pretty specific.
And that really makes it only an opinion as to what server grade even means. The term was made up by Apple in 2008 and it essentially means nothing. It's advertising. People come up with all kinds of nonsensical terms to describe any given product and if there is one truth about advertising, it's that the claims are always overblown, overstated and to be taken with a grain of...well, in Apple's case, maybe make it a half a pound of something.
Steve may as well have said: "Time Capsule: A magical, revolutionary product at an unbelievable price".
Comments
As opposed to a bunch of apparently mindless drones slavishly defending Apple?
Kettle, please meet Pot.
Don't even try... he/she has called out two of the most pro Apple people on this board as "Apple bashers". Reason and logic will not suffice...
I wish we could get the an iOS-based Apple Home Server. I have no need for a AEBS with a HDD for Time Machine backups. I want a multi drive cube that is the central hub for all media.
iOS-based means the version of "OS X" that runs on ARM processors. Mac OS-based means X86-based processors. I don't see why Apple would use Atom or better processors in a home server when their A5 chips are fully capable of running a home server.
Depends on your definition of home server. Mine would need to be able to rip DVDs and do iMovie and iPhoto assuming that the rest of the household is running iPads. For that a mini + a 4 bay TB RAID array seems well suited as a home server.
If you assume something like an iMac or MBP in your home setup then any ol' NAS would work.
Oh friggin boo hoo. One file in a series of backups will get corrupted because of a bit. You shouldn't be relying on one backup anyway if your information is THAT critical.
Frankly, how or why you back up your stuff is irrelevant. If Apple markets something as one thing, and yet the MAIN component manufacturer say it is not, then obviously Apple is deceiving its customers, and the only real argument here is the degree of deception. How you intend to use it - even if you just stick it in your refrigerator as a weight to keep the taco shells from flying around when you close the door - doesn't give Apple the right to make spurious claims about its product. That is especially true for Apple, who certainly markets to the dull-witted crowd who want to able to blindly plug something in and have it "just work," and keep things so simple that the user never has much more to do than push the on'off switch.
Frankly, how or why you back up your stuff is irrelevant. If Apple markets something as one thing, and yet the MAIN component manufacturer say it is not, then obviously Apple is deceiving its customers, and the only real argument here is the degree of deception.
Where did Apple's component supplier state that it's not 'server-grade'?
Hint: the fact that they offer an even higher end drive doesn't indicate that it's not server grade.
Amazing how the Apple haters continue to make the same stupid arguments that failed 3 years ago.
Side note... My Syquest disks didn't even make it past the 6 month mark sometimes.
Oh Syquest... them and Iomega.
I'm so glad they had such low capacities: it limits the amount of data you lose when they fail
Oh Syquest... them and Iomega.
I'm so glad they had such low capacities: it limits the amount of data you lose when they fail
Where did Apple's component supplier state that it's not 'server-grade'?
Hint: the fact that they offer an even higher end drive doesn't indicate that it's not server grade.
This is at least the third time I am posting this:
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2011/06/...ime-caspule-v4
"[Update] According to Western Digital, this disk is a general public model. There are also similar models for servers, but they are more expensive as they have a lower bit error rate 1x1015 while this one has 1x1014, 600,000 load/unload cycles (300,000 for this one) and is covered by a 5 years warranty, while this one is covered for 3 years."
As for RAID
If I ever set up a RAID array it will be a RAID-10.
People ...avoid parity striping if you can rebuilds are slow. Remember that because a RAID-5 has to calculate parity and stripe it on every write you basically have 3 or more drives that do not write any faster than a single drives speed (you do get aggregate read) .
Now you take 4 drives and mirror a pair and then strip that mirror you get much better write performance and pretty solid read performance and if a drive dies in the mirrored pair the rebuild is fast.
RAID-10...don't buy an array without it.
Public Service Message
The established distinction between a consumer grade and enterprise class hard drive is that enterprise class hard drives are tested more thoroughly as to guarantee over 1 million hours Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF). This assumes 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week usage. Here is a good summary of the issue.
Sorry to say, but I didn't think that article was very good. It never even mentioned *what* hard drive was being used in the Time Capsule, let alone whether it was rated for more than 1 million MTBF. Yes, as you mention, this was found out later but through other means not mentioned or hinted at in the article.
Current Google searches for the definition of "server grade" is just littered with articles about the latest Time Capsule.
I'm willing to start to back off from this debate, we all clearly have established our positions and opinions. Thought I'd have a little fun with the meme above.
I wonder why the Apple-bashers think that if they keep repeating the same lie that it becomes true.
There is no such legal or standard definition of 'server grade'. Period. End of discussion (except that the Apple haters will continue to spread the same lie).
I only have 5 Apple computers, an ATV, an AP base station, 4 express stations and an ipod in the house. I have owned dozens of Macintoshes and other Apple products over the years.
I bought my first Mac in 1994 and I was one of the die hard people who kept that company alive when everyone else declared it on its death bed.
I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.
I only have 5 Apple computers, an ATV, an AP base station, 4 express stations and an ipod in the house. I have owned dozens of Macintoshes and other Apple products over the years.
I bought my first Mac in 1994 and I was one of the die hard people who kept that company alive when everyone else declared it on its death bed.
I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.
Don't bother. Common sense and reasonable interpretations of "server grade" makes you an Apple-Hater!!!1!1!1!1
No, they aren't. In this case, the RE4-GP and Caviar Green use identical hardware. The RE4-GP has some firmware optimizations for use in RAIDs that no one using a Time Capsule will see, and a slightly better warranty. But the shorter warranty on the Caviar Green is still years longer than Apple's warranty on the Time Capsule.
The RE4-GPs are built to tighter tolerances. Whether you want to call this binning or better QA is up to you but they are slightly better drives and tested more. Not that it seems to matter all that much for DOA/Infant mortalities. The Carnegie Mellon study pretty much put to rest that the MTBF numbers provided by drive makers really meant a whole lot in actual use.
That said, folks here would STILL be bitching if Apple had used RE4-GPs since they top out at 2GB and cost more. Folks would also STILL be bitching if they used the AV-GP which are meant for 24/7 DVR-like applications since they aren't enterprise drives either despite having 1M hours MTBF.
Given that "server grade" is a meaningless term other than drives that appear in servers the WD is a great drive for the TC. Folks here would bitch that an Apple mini-based Home Server would be false advertising since it wouldn't be rack mountable, have ECC memory or have a Xeon inside. Oh yeah, and be packing a WD Caviar Green.
The old litmus test of being the same drives as in the XServes doesn't work anymore. I guess the nearest equivalent are the drives shipping in the Mac Pro Server. These are most likely Caviar Blacks like the regular Mac Pros. If they are then Apple's statement still holds...they're using the same class drives in the TC as they are in their "server" lines.
This is at least the third time I am posting this:
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2011/06/...ime-caspule-v4
"[Update] According to Western Digital, this disk is a general public model. There are also similar models for servers, but they are more expensive as they have a lower bit error rate 1x1015 while this one has 1x1014, 600,000 load/unload cycles (300,000 for this one) and is covered by a 5 years warranty, while this one is covered for 3 years."
You can repeat that until you're blue in the face. The fact that it is sold to consumers does not establish that it isn't server grade. The fact that they have even better drives does not establish that it isn't server grade.
Server grade means, quite simply, that it can be used it servers. It can be and it has been - so it is server grade no matter how much you may wish to whine and moan.
[QUOTE=Gary54;1890562I buy components, including hard drives. Every manufacturer who makes them has a "server grade" drive with a longer warranty (Typically 5 years rather than 3.) intended for commercial 24/7 use. The WD Green is not one. Its listed on WD's site as a consumer desktop drive with a 3 year warranty. If you want an "enterprise class" drive, another term for "server grade" or "server class" then you need to get one of the RE series which has a 5 year warranty.
Its still false advertising and you are being an apologist.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you show us WD's site where it says that you can't use the Green in a server? And tell us why you're not all over HP for using the Green in servers?
BTW, when did you make up the 'logic' that "enterprise class" means the same thing as "server grade"? Show me an official industry reference that supports that.
So far, in spite of endless whining and moaning over the 3 years, not a single person has come up with an industry standard or legal definition that precludes what Apple is doing.
You can repeat that until you're blue in the face. The fact that it is sold to consumers does not establish that it isn't server grade. The fact that they have even better drives does not establish that it isn't server grade.
Server grade means, quite simply, that it can be used it servers. It can be and it has been - so it is server grade no matter how much you may wish to whine and moan.
Why don't you show us WD's site where it says that you can't use the Green in a server? And tell us why you're not all over HP for using the Green in servers?
BTW, when did you make up the 'logic' that "enterprise class" means the same thing as "server grade"? Show me an official industry reference that supports that.
So far, in spite of endless whining and moaning over the 3 years, not a single person has come up with an industry standard or legal definition that precludes what Apple is doing.
can be used as a "server" Any old hunk of junk can be used as a server. Hell, I used to use a IIci as a server. Because a computer can be used as a server does not make a piece of hardware "sever grade" "server class" or "enterprise class" intended for mission critical 27/7 commercial use. That is a determination by the manufacture of the drive.
To suggest it is, is false advertising.
What would be accurate, to the point truth in advertising is "low power, cool running, long lasting green drive"
Which in consideration of the application, is a better hardware choice. No one needs a high performance drive in a Time Capsule. Low power, cool running is the ticket.
Say what you do and do what you say. We get enough spin doctoring double think out of DC
So that's really all there is to it as far as Apple's claims as to the meaning, or rather complete lack thereof, of the term "server grade". That's all Steve Jobs said about what "server grade" means to Apple as far as the product Time Capsule is concerned: "a really reliable hard drive". Wow, that's pretty specific.
And that really makes it only an opinion as to what server grade even means. The term was made up by Apple in 2008 and it essentially means nothing. It's advertising. People come up with all kinds of nonsensical terms to describe any given product and if there is one truth about advertising, it's that the claims are always overblown, overstated and to be taken with a grain of...well, in Apple's case, maybe make it a half a pound of something.
Steve may as well have said: "Time Capsule: A magical, revolutionary product at an unbelievable price".