"Apple has followed the typical Apple sequence: (1) throw out something that’s popular and comfortable but increasingly ancient, (2) replace it with something that’s slick and modern and forward-looking and incomplete, (3) spend another year finishing it up, restoring missing pieces."
How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.
Hey - those cheap a** calculators saved many an engineer's hid back in the day. Of course that was when H and P were still running the company and HP had top of the line measuring and test equipment. The crap began when Carly Flatulence bought her way into the top job.
Love my HP-12C. Still use it after 30+(?) years. Agree about Carly. She ruined the company.
Marathon? Well said. Have you ever considered releasing it when you are closer to the finish line? If you know you are selling a half-done product, then why are you charging people full price?
Worst people have already made up their mind that TouchPad is a failure. That is a big mistake in my mind. You can be pretty sure Apple is already looking over TouchPad if for nothing else to better understand their weaknesses relative to TouchPad.
Being a fan boi is one thing but blinding yourself to what is happening in the rest of the industry is pretty stupid. Besides it is in Apples best interest to have an non Android competitor.
There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.
A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.
I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.
How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.
He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.
There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.
A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.
I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.
Well HP did say that they wanted all of their PCs to have a version of webOS running atop Windows.
I'm sorry, but addressing a large email with the pronoun "Team" is just.... douchey. He's right though. No software is good at 1.0. Give them a year, they will make it fairly nice. Diminishing returns... iOS 4.0 is pretty good and it will be possible to match that within 12-18 months.
Good motivational letter. At least one executive is open with his works and knows what need to be done. However, I don't think WebOS will survive long because HP will look at the numbers and they will not be as patient as Rubinstein.
Finally, it took eighteen comments to get to some common sense. From what I remember OS X didn't really get usable until about 10.3. I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on. How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan? I fail to see how OS 9 could compete around a time when MS finally started to get their act together with the stable Windows XP. I know people here don't want to give credit to anything Windows but the one thing you could say about XP was that it finally got stable. OS 9 would have had a hard time competing.
I'm not sure who you're replying to when you said "I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on," so forgive me if I'm not interpreting your thoughts 100% correctly.
Regardless, in response to your comment, "How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan?" ? OS 9 wasn't so much of a back up plan, *but a fully functional platform that was 99% compatible with OS X*. For that reason, comparing the current version of WebOS to Mac OS X 10.0 is rather disingenuous. Maybe the current state of WebOS itself is comparable to Mac OS X 10.0, but the state of the software ecosystem is night and day!
Sure, there are some older phone-based WebOS apps that work on the TouchPad, but as far as I can tell, the compatibility layer is pretty janky. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't actually used a TouchPad).
That said, I actually really want WebOS to succeed! I think iOS is great, but it's not perfect, and I think it would be wonderful for there to be a legitimate alternative. But I'm not an Apple apologist, nor am I an HP apologist. If HP's shit stinks, then I'm not gonna pretend it smells like roses.
Just what I was thingking. Also I'm not super sure, but I think the 10.0 version was called a "beta" and was free (or $20 with a discount on the first paid release.)
No, I'm pretty sure the beta was a separate thing. I remember buying it myself. I wonder if I still have that disk laying around somewhere. That would be kind of awesome. XD
He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.
If they're only expecting to get the last few holdouts on Palm OS to move across then I guess that applies - if they expect to pick up significant new business then they don't want to claim this to be like the OS-X transition - because it took near on a decade for Mac to really break out of its core market and it was the iPod that did it, and perhaps the MS bungling of Vista - the modern & slick OS-X was necessary but not sufficient. Oh and the transition to Intel helped because it gave a huge performance bump, WebOS doesn't have the option of moving to faster hardware - it's already on the fastest available without sacrificing battery life, and it apparently still feels slow.
(Graph from Low End Mac)
If Rubenstein is right then they're still going to need a miracle, maybe three.
The difference is OS X was version 1, this is version 3. Palm has a lot of good ideas, and if they beat Android to market back in the day they would have been the number 2 OS for sure, licensed and running on a miriad of devices. However, their version 3 product is 3 years late to market, it is slow, sluggish and big. I give Palm a lot of credit for what they are doing, but I just don't see webOS as anything other then an android skin at this point.
That's not totally true. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.
A marathon in which they started running 2 years after others,so they better sprint all they way if they wanna get placed ( or somewhere near that)
Exactly! Mac OSX was unique and compelling that it survived the birthing pains.
Web OS has stiff competition in the iPad and iOS. Indeed, if anything it's behind! You don't have time for excuses - if you want to pass Apple, you have to do it now - not some distant point in the future.
That's not totally true either. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.
Heck, the filename for iPhoto's icon is still "NSApplicationIcon".
The same goes for iOS. If any of you where involved in the first SDK release you will know what I'm talking about. Apple had many iOS releases in quick succession to deal with significant bugs.
Apple could get away with this because they were first. HP isn't. That's the point - not that companies have growing pains or that "stuff happens" - the point is HP has lost the luxury of time and has to produce, or rightly take their lumps.
That's the way it works. HP isn't competing against iOS 1 or the iPad 1...
I completely agree. So many here are so quick to write off his argument when in reality everything he said was true, and I for one think that webOS has potential.
People - most people anyway - aren't going to buy on potential. At some point real artists ship
Quote:
Kudos to Jon and he makes great points. Hoping the best for him and webOS.
Hope 'aint gonna cut it either. They will either step up and at least meet the iPad, or they won't succeed. He can make all the "right" points in the world, but great philosophical arguments won't sell tablets.
Whether you fan boys and girls like it or not, Web OS has potential. It will take time, let's say 3-4 years. But in the end, it will come.
But will it ever come to a point where it passes the currently shipping iOS and iOS devices?
The latest Zunes are rather nice - in many ways better than the iPods. The problem is Apple changed the game and conversation to smartphones. So the latest Zunes are, to be blunt, dead. Not because they weren't good products, but good products too late.
HP doesn't have 3-4 years. There is a high likelihood that Apple (or some other company) will have once again moved the goal posts and changed the conversation.
Comments
"Apple has followed the typical Apple sequence: (1) throw out something that’s popular and comfortable but increasingly ancient, (2) replace it with something that’s slick and modern and forward-looking and incomplete, (3) spend another year finishing it up, restoring missing pieces."
David Pogue
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...nal-cut-pro-x/
How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.
Hey - those cheap a** calculators saved many an engineer's hid back in the day. Of course that was when H and P were still running the company and HP had top of the line measuring and test equipment. The crap began when Carly Flatulence bought her way into the top job.
Love my HP-12C. Still use it after 30+(?) years. Agree about Carly. She ruined the company.
Worst people have already made up their mind that TouchPad is a failure. That is a big mistake in my mind. You can be pretty sure Apple is already looking over TouchPad if for nothing else to better understand their weaknesses relative to TouchPad.
Being a fan boi is one thing but blinding yourself to what is happening in the rest of the industry is pretty stupid. Besides it is in Apples best interest to have an non Android competitor.
There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.
A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.
I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.
How is this relevant? Are you saying the TouchPad is increaasingly ancient? Slick and Modern? HP isn't doing an OS-X or an FCP-X, they're not migrating an existing userbase over - they're trying to build a completely new one.
He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.
There's fanboyish optimism and negativism of course. But one can also be realistic. I wish webOS and HP's Palm division well, but they've got it much worse than Mac OS X ever had. Apple bet the company on Mac OS X with everyone from the CEO to retail personnel doing everything they could to improve upon it.
A lot of people think HP gets "it". That they are going to use webOS like Apple is going to use webOS. Problem is that webOS is a not even a pimple on HPs org chart and it hasn't made them any money yet. By this time next year, the MS Windows forces with HP, the part of the company that contributes to large chunk of HP's bottom line, will have Windows 8 on ARM to play with. Those guys are going to have a gun pointed at Rubenstein's Palm division.
I don't know how long HP plans on carrying a multi-OS strategy, but it's going to come to head. HP has to commit the company to webOS to make it successful, but I really don't think they will. It's going to be a lot like IBM's OS/2 issues in the 1990s with inter-division rivalry. If webOS doesn't make any headway within a year, I think it's done.
Well HP did say that they wanted all of their PCs to have a version of webOS running atop Windows.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/09/w...year-says-ceo/
Finally, it took eighteen comments to get to some common sense. From what I remember OS X didn't really get usable until about 10.3. I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on. How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan? I fail to see how OS 9 could compete around a time when MS finally started to get their act together with the stable Windows XP. I know people here don't want to give credit to anything Windows but the one thing you could say about XP was that it finally got stable. OS 9 would have had a hard time competing.
I'm not sure who you're replying to when you said "I thought it was funny when someone said they have OS 9 to fall back on," so forgive me if I'm not interpreting your thoughts 100% correctly.
Regardless, in response to your comment, "How is a quite old legacy OS like OS 9 a fall back plan?" ? OS 9 wasn't so much of a back up plan, *but a fully functional platform that was 99% compatible with OS X*. For that reason, comparing the current version of WebOS to Mac OS X 10.0 is rather disingenuous. Maybe the current state of WebOS itself is comparable to Mac OS X 10.0, but the state of the software ecosystem is night and day!
Sure, there are some older phone-based WebOS apps that work on the TouchPad, but as far as I can tell, the compatibility layer is pretty janky. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't actually used a TouchPad).
That said, I actually really want WebOS to succeed! I think iOS is great, but it's not perfect, and I think it would be wonderful for there to be a legitimate alternative. But I'm not an Apple apologist, nor am I an HP apologist. If HP's shit stinks, then I'm not gonna pretend it smells like roses.
Just what I was thingking. Also I'm not super sure, but I think the 10.0 version was called a "beta" and was free (or $20 with a discount on the first paid release.)
No, I'm pretty sure the beta was a separate thing. I remember buying it myself. I wonder if I still have that disk laying around somewhere. That would be kind of awesome. XD
He was referring to the transition from the "ancient" looking Palm OS 5 to the "slick and modern" webOS. webOS may have been more successful if there was more support for legacy Palm OS software, but I doubt it because the Palm OS was essentially dead by the time Jon Rubenstein came in.
If they're only expecting to get the last few holdouts on Palm OS to move across then I guess that applies - if they expect to pick up significant new business then they don't want to claim this to be like the OS-X transition - because it took near on a decade for Mac to really break out of its core market and it was the iPod that did it, and perhaps the MS bungling of Vista - the modern & slick OS-X was necessary but not sufficient. Oh and the transition to Intel helped because it gave a huge performance bump, WebOS doesn't have the option of moving to faster hardware - it's already on the fastest available without sacrificing battery life, and it apparently still feels slow.
(Graph from Low End Mac)
If Rubenstein is right then they're still going to need a miracle, maybe three.
The difference is OS X was version 1, this is version 3. Palm has a lot of good ideas, and if they beat Android to market back in the day they would have been the number 2 OS for sure, licensed and running on a miriad of devices. However, their version 3 product is 3 years late to market, it is slow, sluggish and big. I give Palm a lot of credit for what they are doing, but I just don't see webOS as anything other then an android skin at this point.
That's not totally true. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.
A marathon in which they started running 2 years after others,so they better sprint all they way if they wanna get placed ( or somewhere near that)
Exactly! Mac OSX was unique and compelling that it survived the birthing pains.
Web OS has stiff competition in the iPad and iOS. Indeed, if anything it's behind! You don't have time for excuses - if you want to pass Apple, you have to do it now - not some distant point in the future.
Because Apple isn't stopping either!
That's not totally true either. MacOS X 10.0 was preceded by NeXTSTEP and MacOS X Server 1.0, so MacOS X 10.0 wasn't exactly a "version 1.0" product either.
Heck, the filename for iPhoto's icon is still "NSApplicationIcon".
The same goes for iOS. If any of you where involved in the first SDK release you will know what I'm talking about. Apple had many iOS releases in quick succession to deal with significant bugs.
Apple could get away with this because they were first. HP isn't. That's the point - not that companies have growing pains or that "stuff happens" - the point is HP has lost the luxury of time and has to produce, or rightly take their lumps.
That's the way it works. HP isn't competing against iOS 1 or the iPad 1...
I completely agree. So many here are so quick to write off his argument when in reality everything he said was true, and I for one think that webOS has potential.
People - most people anyway - aren't going to buy on potential. At some point real artists ship
Kudos to Jon and he makes great points. Hoping the best for him and webOS.
Hope 'aint gonna cut it either. They will either step up and at least meet the iPad, or they won't succeed. He can make all the "right" points in the world, but great philosophical arguments won't sell tablets.
Heck, the filename for iPhoto's icon is still "NSApplicationIcon".
Oh, man, I want to work at 1 Geostationary Tower! lol that sounds awesome
Whether you fan boys and girls like it or not, Web OS has potential. It will take time, let's say 3-4 years. But in the end, it will come.
But will it ever come to a point where it passes the currently shipping iOS and iOS devices?
The latest Zunes are rather nice - in many ways better than the iPods. The problem is Apple changed the game and conversation to smartphones. So the latest Zunes are, to be blunt, dead. Not because they weren't good products, but good products too late.
HP doesn't have 3-4 years. There is a high likelihood that Apple (or some other company) will have once again moved the goal posts and changed the conversation.