I just checked an article about the Sun in the Le monde newspaper, and i did not read that the french gov will sue the Sun.
They also said that the front page cover with Chirac as a worm, was only distributed to parisian people. Anyway, i do not give a shit of what a tabloid paper can said.
As the journalist said in Le monde, if Chirac is a worm, then many british are worm, and many readers of the sun also.
<strong>Groverat, you NEVER used to get into this stupid Eurobashing nonsense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
American journalism is superior (and always will be since America's free speech rights are so much more advanced) to European journalism. I don't see why that's Eurobashing. German cars are better than American cars. Is that Americabashing?
[quote]<strong>Firstly, I've looked at your link and for the life of me I can't find the bit where it says that the French government is actually going to apply this law.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They fined the Sun.
And what does the application matter, I think I speak for the millions who bitch about the PATRIOT Act when I say the law itself must be changed at times, regardless of its application.
[quote]<strong>Is what I read right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd say no. It's not the job of mainstream press (in news situations) to give value judgements of one nation's policy over another's. Look in an editorial section and you'll see all the anti-Bush rhetoric you can eat.
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know why but i guessed that you where a student in journalism. Perhaps the way you structure your post and your huge knowledge on many subjects.
[quote] American journalism is superior (and always will be since America's free speech rights are so much more advanced) to European journalism <hr></blockquote>
At least American journalism is certainly far superior than english Tabloid journalism, excepting for the Washington post, who belongs to the same Robert Murdoch.
[quote] They fined the Sun. <hr></blockquote>
Could you provide me a link, i did not find after my quick web research a link about this. But afterall you are the professional in this aera
The only thing i found is that few lines from AFP :
Perhaps i should translate this article, but basically there is nothing against fining the sun. Just a comment like "insults teach more about the ones who said them, rather it teach about the ones, that the insults pretends to discribe" (sorry for this silly translation. )
[quote]<strong>I don't know why but i guessed that you where a student in journalism. Perhaps the way you structure your post and your huge knowledge on many subjects.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where's that blushing smiley when you need it!?
Oh how you flatter you Frenchman!
[quote]<strong>At least American journalism is certainly far superior than english Tabloid journalism, excepting for the Washington post, who belongs to the same Robert Murdoch.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Tabloid journalism" is an oxymoron. Like "television journalism".
--
Sacre bleu!
Ah so they haven't been fined. Right, well I stand corrected on that.
My outrage isn't with the fine, really, so much as that there is a law against criticizing the president. Therein lies the outrage, not in the possible monetary punishment.
funny...just half an hour ago i asked brad (who was useless to me...but he sure is in a giddy mood for some reason) if g'rat was a law student...mostly because of the rational approach (though nasty at times) he takes in his posts...and also because of the wonderful "Shine on you crazy diamond" line from another post....journalism fits too...not that we talk often about groverat...can't let that melon swell too much...g
My outrage isn't with the fine, really, so much as that there is a law against criticizing the president. Therein lies the outrage, not in the possible monetary punishment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have to add an another qualitie to his long list :
Groverat is like a cat, he always fall on one's feet
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose trying to deal with the Heart/Pulitzer legacy of yellow - er, excuse me, objective journalism is the lesser of two evils. That, and the overweening cynicism of most journalists: They sneer that the average American can't find Europe on a map of Europe, but instead of treating that as an educational opportunity they use it as an excuse not to report anything going on in Europe, unless royalty is involved somehow. That way they don't have to do any research, or go looking for Europe on a map themselves.
It's always fascinating to see what, for example, the New York Times decides it's going to report, and whether it will get a spread on page 1 or a spare column inch on B23. Just as it's fun to watch a story on CNN evolve from the graveyard shift to the evening broadcast. They seem to relate all the most interesting news when they think no-one's watching.
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I really, truly don't understand this. It's just that the Europe you describe is nothing at all like the Europe I live in.
You can write the most inflammatory nonsense you can and someone will publish it. We simply don't lack press freedom, not in Evil France, nor in Britain. Regardless of what they teach you on your journalism course.
Further, television networks will commission stuff that, in practice, your timid, moral broadcasters wouldn't contemplate. We've never had anything like the Macarthy trials, come to think of it, and (in the UK and France at any rate) a centuries-long tradition of taking the piss out of authority that's still quite hale, thank-you very much.
I have never been a journalism student, Groverat, but I have (funnily enough) worked as a professional journalist. My dad's published all over the place, too, and until recently he was a card-carrying Stalinist. So: I don't know what you're talking about.
Where is this 'Europe'? From Iceland to Spain YOU CAN SAY ANY DAMN THING YOU PLEASE.
All you have, Groverat, is an article that says that France has a law (probably passed in 1799) that says you can't badmouth the president. You have no evidence of ANY KIND that this law has ever been implemented, despite Powerdoc Googling French websites, and you don't know a damn thing about the French satirical press or TV shows which are about as vicious as its possible to get and say what they have to say week in, week out and have done for centuries.
(And just to fill you on in European legal process, the French government can't just 'fine' a newspaper because there isn't a night court dedicated to potential political libel cases.)
So what the bloody hell are you talking about? I respect you very much because you just won't toe any kind of party line, Groverat, you contrary bastard, but your original post is just beneath you. You see, it's shit.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Am I dreaming or was it France that took a journalist to court for writing the opinion that "Islam is a stupid religion". ... Nope! I'm not dreaming. Write the "wrong" opinion in France and end up in court.
All it takes to land on your feet is a good sense of humor and an ability to admit when you're wrong.
-
Amorph:
[quote]<strong>I suppose trying to deal with the Heart/Pulitzer legacy of yellow - er, excuse me, objective journalism is the lesser of two evils.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I love the quote from a reknowned French journalist (the name escapes me), "American media is the least worst in the world."
[quote]<strong>It's always fascinating to see what, for example, the New York Times decides it's going to report, and whether it will get a spread on page 1 or a spare column inch on B23. Just as it's fun to watch a story on CNN evolve from the graveyard shift to the evening broadcast. They seem to relate all the most interesting news when they think no-one's watching.</strong><hr></blockquote>
News judgement is a difficult business. There definitely is an attitude of superiority that I don't like and I try to fight whenever I am around it but going out and seeing what people want... to be quite honest what you find interesting might put most people to sleep.
But I've got faith! I believe people still want to know things and are willing to give it attention! KEEP THE FAITH, BROTHER!
-
Hassan:
[quote]<strong>You can write the most inflammatory nonsense you can and someone will publish it. We simply don't lack press freedom, not in Evil France, nor in Britain. Regardless of what they teach you on your journalism course.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The libel bar is much higher in the U.S. than it is in most European nations, you'll notice that's what that paragraph is about.
You're eager to find Eurobashing, I've noticed, and took that to be an across-the-board indictment about everything in Europe, but that's not the case.
Calmate.
[quote]<strong>All you have, Groverat, is an article that says that France has a law (probably passed in 1799) that says you can't badmouth the president. You have no evidence of ANY KIND that this law has ever been implemented</strong><hr></blockquote>
The fact that the law exists is outrageous enough.
<strong>Am I dreaming or was it France that took a journalist to court for writing the opinion that "Islam is a stupid religion". ... Nope! I'm not dreaming. Write the "wrong" opinion in France and end up in court.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, Scott, fall foul of laws against the incitement of race hate and you may well end up in court. (These laws apply to anti-semitism, too, you'll no doubt be pleased to hear.)
And he wasn't a journalist, he's a novelist and poet called Michel Houellebecq. I've read his book. It's very good indeed.
Being in America and all, where your press doesn't exactly cover global current affairs the way that the European press does, I understand that you probably have no idea at all exactly what kind of position Houellebecq has in the cultural life of France, nor quite what a furore his book 'Les Particules elementaires' made on its publication. He's purposefully - meticulously - offensive and opposed to political correctness, and people are very, very divided over his work. He HATES liberalism, he hates Islam, and he also writes that Zionism is racism: he's a sort of equal-opportunities offender.
You may have objections to laws against the incitement of race hate, but that's another and very contentious issue. I understand you'll start feeling all oppressed if the government took away your right to incite race hatred, Scott, but c'est la vie, I guess France just isn't the place for you.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Well geeze, a whole lot of letters for such a simple pronunciation. Why isn't it spelled phoenetically? Wait a minute.... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Comments
They also said that the front page cover with Chirac as a worm, was only distributed to parisian people. Anyway, i do not give a shit of what a tabloid paper can said.
As the journalist said in Le monde, if Chirac is a worm, then many british are worm, and many readers of the sun also.
<strong>Groverat, you NEVER used to get into this stupid Eurobashing nonsense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
American journalism is superior (and always will be since America's free speech rights are so much more advanced) to European journalism. I don't see why that's Eurobashing. German cars are better than American cars. Is that Americabashing?
[quote]<strong>Firstly, I've looked at your link and for the life of me I can't find the bit where it says that the French government is actually going to apply this law.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They fined the Sun.
And what does the application matter, I think I speak for the millions who bitch about the PATRIOT Act when I say the law itself must be changed at times, regardless of its application.
[quote]<strong>Is what I read right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd say no. It's not the job of mainstream press (in news situations) to give value judgements of one nation's policy over another's. Look in an editorial section and you'll see all the anti-Bush rhetoric you can eat.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know why but i guessed that you where a student in journalism. Perhaps the way you structure your post and your huge knowledge on many subjects.
[quote] American journalism is superior (and always will be since America's free speech rights are so much more advanced) to European journalism <hr></blockquote>
At least American journalism is certainly far superior than english Tabloid journalism, excepting for the Washington post, who belongs to the same Robert Murdoch.
[quote] They fined the Sun. <hr></blockquote>
Could you provide me a link, i did not find after my quick web research a link about this. But afterall you are the professional in this aera
The only thing i found is that few lines from AFP :
Le président Jacques Chirac a répondu vendredi aux attaques virulentes contre lui du quotidien britannique The Sun et de la presse britannique en invoquant "le combat de la France pour le droit, pour la morale, pour le respect mutuel".
"Le combat de la France est un combat pour le droit, pour la morale, pour le respect mutuel", s'est contenté de répondre le président français, interrogé sur ces attaques au cours d'une conférence de presse Ã* l'issue du 22ème sommet France-Afrique Ã* Paris.
Jeudi, The Sun, le plus lu et le plus populaire des quotidiens britanniques, propriété de l'Américano-australien Rupert Murdoch, avait distribué Ã* Paris une édition spéciale représentant Jacques Chirac en ver de terre.
"Votre président Jacques Chirac est devenu la honte de l'Europe", accusait le quotidien, reprochant au président français son opposition Ã* la guerre en Irak et l'invitation faite au président zimbabwéen Robert Mugabe Ã* participer au sommet de Paris, en dépit des sanctions européennes qui le frappent. "Le ver rencontre le monstre", ajoutait The Sun.
Jeudi, la porte-parole de l'Elysée, Catherine Colonna, avait estimé que "les insultes en disent bien souvent plus long sur ceux qui les profèrent que sur ceux qu'elles prétendent décrire".
Perhaps i should translate this article, but basically there is nothing against fining the sun. Just a comment like "insults teach more about the ones who said them, rather it teach about the ones, that the insults pretends to discribe" (sorry for this silly translation. )
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Powerdoc ]</p>
Where's that blushing smiley when you need it!?
Oh how you flatter you Frenchman!
[quote]<strong>At least American journalism is certainly far superior than english Tabloid journalism, excepting for the Washington post, who belongs to the same Robert Murdoch.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Tabloid journalism" is an oxymoron. Like "television journalism".
--
Sacre bleu!
Ah so they haven't been fined. Right, well I stand corrected on that.
My outrage isn't with the fine, really, so much as that there is a law against criticizing the president. Therein lies the outrage, not in the possible monetary punishment.
<strong>
"Tabloid journalism" is an oxymoron. Like "television journalism".
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[quote] Oh how you flatter you Frenchman! <hr></blockquote>
Only the people I love
Damn you are right i did not noticed before that the blushing smiley have disappeared !
found it:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawyers are evil and immoral.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shine on you crazy diamond.
lol...made me smile....g
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>
My outrage isn't with the fine, really, so much as that there is a law against criticizing the president. Therein lies the outrage, not in the possible monetary punishment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have to add an another qualitie to his long list :
Groverat is like a cat, he always fall on one's feet
<strong>
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose trying to deal with the Heart/Pulitzer legacy of yellow - er, excuse me, objective journalism is the lesser of two evils. That, and the overweening cynicism of most journalists: They sneer that the average American can't find Europe on a map of Europe, but instead of treating that as an educational opportunity they use it as an excuse not to report anything going on in Europe, unless royalty is involved somehow. That way they don't have to do any research, or go looking for Europe on a map themselves.
It's always fascinating to see what, for example, the New York Times decides it's going to report, and whether it will get a spread on page 1 or a spare column inch on B23. Just as it's fun to watch a story on CNN evolve from the graveyard shift to the evening broadcast. They seem to relate all the most interesting news when they think no-one's watching.
<strong>
Well since I'm a journalism student the whole libel issue is a particular sore-spot with me. No Eurobashing, just a bit of national pride in how much freedom we have and how it must suck to not have such freedoms.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I really, truly don't understand this. It's just that the Europe you describe is nothing at all like the Europe I live in.
You can write the most inflammatory nonsense you can and someone will publish it. We simply don't lack press freedom, not in Evil France, nor in Britain. Regardless of what they teach you on your journalism course.
Further, television networks will commission stuff that, in practice, your timid, moral broadcasters wouldn't contemplate. We've never had anything like the Macarthy trials, come to think of it, and (in the UK and France at any rate) a centuries-long tradition of taking the piss out of authority that's still quite hale, thank-you very much.
I have never been a journalism student, Groverat, but I have (funnily enough) worked as a professional journalist. My dad's published all over the place, too, and until recently he was a card-carrying Stalinist. So: I don't know what you're talking about.
Where is this 'Europe'? From Iceland to Spain YOU CAN SAY ANY DAMN THING YOU PLEASE.
All you have, Groverat, is an article that says that France has a law (probably passed in 1799) that says you can't badmouth the president. You have no evidence of ANY KIND that this law has ever been implemented, despite Powerdoc Googling French websites, and you don't know a damn thing about the French satirical press or TV shows which are about as vicious as its possible to get and say what they have to say week in, week out and have done for centuries.
(And just to fill you on in European legal process, the French government can't just 'fine' a newspaper because there isn't a night court dedicated to potential political libel cases.)
So what the bloody hell are you talking about? I respect you very much because you just won't toe any kind of party line, Groverat, you contrary bastard, but your original post is just beneath you. You see, it's shit.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
All it takes to land on your feet is a good sense of humor and an ability to admit when you're wrong.
-
Amorph:
[quote]<strong>I suppose trying to deal with the Heart/Pulitzer legacy of yellow - er, excuse me, objective journalism is the lesser of two evils.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I love the quote from a reknowned French journalist (the name escapes me), "American media is the least worst in the world."
[quote]<strong>It's always fascinating to see what, for example, the New York Times decides it's going to report, and whether it will get a spread on page 1 or a spare column inch on B23. Just as it's fun to watch a story on CNN evolve from the graveyard shift to the evening broadcast. They seem to relate all the most interesting news when they think no-one's watching.</strong><hr></blockquote>
News judgement is a difficult business. There definitely is an attitude of superiority that I don't like and I try to fight whenever I am around it but going out and seeing what people want... to be quite honest what you find interesting might put most people to sleep.
But I've got faith! I believe people still want to know things and are willing to give it attention! KEEP THE FAITH, BROTHER!
-
Hassan:
[quote]<strong>You can write the most inflammatory nonsense you can and someone will publish it. We simply don't lack press freedom, not in Evil France, nor in Britain. Regardless of what they teach you on your journalism course.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The libel bar is much higher in the U.S. than it is in most European nations, you'll notice that's what that paragraph is about.
You're eager to find Eurobashing, I've noticed, and took that to be an across-the-board indictment about everything in Europe, but that's not the case.
Calmate.
[quote]<strong>All you have, Groverat, is an article that says that France has a law (probably passed in 1799) that says you can't badmouth the president. You have no evidence of ANY KIND that this law has ever been implemented</strong><hr></blockquote>
The fact that the law exists is outrageous enough.
That name you're looking for is Michel Houellebecq. I probably butchered the spelling on that.
<strong>Am I dreaming or was it France that took a journalist to court for writing the opinion that "Islam is a stupid religion". ... Nope! I'm not dreaming. Write the "wrong" opinion in France and end up in court.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, Scott, fall foul of laws against the incitement of race hate and you may well end up in court. (These laws apply to anti-semitism, too, you'll no doubt be pleased to hear.)
And he wasn't a journalist, he's a novelist and poet called Michel Houellebecq. I've read his book. It's very good indeed.
Being in America and all, where your press doesn't exactly cover global current affairs the way that the European press does, I understand that you probably have no idea at all exactly what kind of position Houellebecq has in the cultural life of France, nor quite what a furore his book 'Les Particules elementaires' made on its publication. He's purposefully - meticulously - offensive and opposed to political correctness, and people are very, very divided over his work. He HATES liberalism, he hates Islam, and he also writes that Zionism is racism: he's a sort of equal-opportunities offender.
You may have objections to laws against the incitement of race hate, but that's another and very contentious issue. I understand you'll start feeling all oppressed if the government took away your right to incite race hatred, Scott, but c'est la vie, I guess France just isn't the place for you.
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Damned if I could ever pronounce it.
Is it seriously just "Hweebeck"??
What is up with the "l"s and "q"s and shit? Crazy-ass language!
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>"Hwee-beck."
Well geeze, a whole lot of letters for such a simple pronunciation. Why isn't it spelled phoenetically? Wait a minute.... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>