Calm down. This kind of error is tragic and should be avoided, but the doctors did not kill the girl , but failed to save her due to a grave error of control. Without this surgery she was doomed anyway. If someone try to save a people and failed due to an error : is this a murder ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. How about rape?
They messed up the first time. Should have stopped right there. But I guess success rates for transplants is high and they went ahead with this one because they ****ed up the first time....wrong.
Of everything on the news lately...this was the one that really hurt me the most. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't automobiles....
Trust Your Mechanic
TV invents a disease
You think you have
So you buy our drugs
And soon you depend on them
Pain is in your mind
Gotcha comin' back for more
Again and again and again and again
Gonna rip you off
Rip you off
Doctor says you need surgery now
Feelin' good 'til the side effects
**** up something else
You're ensnared by the medicine man
Paying up the ass
Again and again
Gonna rip you off
Trust your mechanic to mend your car
Bring it in to his garage
He tightens and loosens a few spare parts
One thing's fixed, another falls apart
And the rich eat you
A magazine says your face don't look quite right
Unless you wear our brand new wonder creme tonight
<strong>The patients in gravest condition automatically get vaulted to the front of the line.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
i don't think that is nessecarily true, it might be for some organs but not for others from my understanding. i had an organ transplant.
i also forgot to mention the sicker you are at time of transplant, the more likely it will not be a success. the healthier you are, the better chance of survival
also, they will not transplant you if you are too sick.
they gave her a second transplant because they messed up, they owed it to her. who's to say the recipient of the second set of organs would have faired any better?
yes they will get sued, but they will settle out of court
<strong>they gave her a second transplant because they messed up, they owed it to her. who's to say the recipient of the second set of organs would have faired any better?
yes they will get sued, but they will settle out of court</strong><hr></blockquote>
It won't be possible for the hospital to settle out of court. Lawyers are no doubt swarming the family right now, telling them what to do next. And who can argue with them? The chain of events that lead to the mistake was so unlikely and so ridiculous, there's no excuse.
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
It won't be possible for the hospital to settle out of court. Lawyers are no doubt swarming the family right now, telling them what to do next. And who can argue with them? The chain of events that lead to the mistake was so unlikely and so ridiculous, there's no excuse.
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
There are two things that need to be fixed here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you think? i suspect they already got too much publicity and the hospital will want to settle out of court if possible
This is not your typical malpractice case, it's one in a million. Duke Universiy is not Joe Bob's boobs and nose clinic. It's shocking that his happened but you can be sure it wont get swept under the rug. Major university hospitals don't work that way.
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
There are two things that need to be fixed here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately US is not the only one. I remember when i was a residen surgery getting even 72 hours shift. Things are becoming to change, with recovery time after 24 hours shift, but during the recovery time, there is nobody for doing the job. So you replace a tired resident by nobody.
[quote]who's to say the recipient of the second set of organs would have faired any better?<hr></blockquote>
Well if they hadn't just gone through a botched double organ transplant that their body was rejecting... I'd say they'd have just a slightly better chance.
<strong>isn't brain dead a black or white thing? there are either brain waves or not.
anyone know for sure on this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea. You can do a nuc' med' brain scan that shows there to be little blood flow in the brain. Any laymen can see the difference between normal and abnormal. But it can take some time for it to come on. Brain scan one day maybe indeterminate and then 24 hours later it's clear.
Yeah, but the question is: do you trust the person telling you this?
The faster she died, the faster Duke's problem would be, er... buried. That's all they seem to be concerned with, is their own behinds.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You know that's just total crap. It's just way too cynical. Maybe because I work in a hospital I find it so insulting. You'd be shocked to find out that they care about people.
<strong>You know that's just total crap. It's just way too cynical. Maybe because I work in a hospital I find it so insulting. You'd be shocked to find out that they care about people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Y'all ain't from around here, are ya?
Duke has a local reputation for cold heartedness in the *administration*. This event has just reinforced that reputation.
The staff, doctors, and medical workers are appalled, aghast and disgusted by the way this has played out. I don't think anyone around here is blaming the practitioners for *this* particular instance. I mean come on... refusing a second opinion on such a fustercluck of a case with public inspection? Doesn't the word 'idiocy' come to mind? What's it going to hurt to delay 24 hours to get a second opinion? All this did was reinforce the feeling around here that the Duke admins could not care less for the good of their patients or their families... if you're in their way to the $, tough.
There is already plenty of rumbling in the ranks about finding employment elsewhere in the area. (Luckily there are several large institutions around here that are in need of more staff.) The Duke medical care is, on the whole, really well regarded. It's the rest of it (billing, administration, policies) that people have a serious problem with around here.
I'm sure the Duke powers that be would like to see this all go away as soon as possible. Put it this way... almost no one around here is surprised to hear that they denied a second opinion on something so critical as whether or not to *pull the plug*. On what basis did the family have *any* reason to trust them, at that point? If she's well and truly flat-lined, then a slight delay isn't going to hurt.
So why deny the family something so fundamentally *basic* as a second opinion?
Comments
<strong>
Calm down. This kind of error is tragic and should be avoided, but the doctors did not kill the girl , but failed to save her due to a grave error of control. Without this surgery she was doomed anyway. If someone try to save a people and failed due to an error : is this a murder ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. How about rape?
They messed up the first time. Should have stopped right there. But I guess success rates for transplants is high and they went ahead with this one because they ****ed up the first time....wrong.
Of everything on the news lately...this was the one that really hurt me the most. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't automobiles....
Trust Your Mechanic
TV invents a disease
You think you have
So you buy our drugs
And soon you depend on them
Pain is in your mind
Gotcha comin' back for more
Again and again and again and again
Gonna rip you off
Rip you off
Doctor says you need surgery now
Feelin' good 'til the side effects
**** up something else
You're ensnared by the medicine man
Paying up the ass
Again and again
Gonna rip you off
Trust your mechanic to mend your car
Bring it in to his garage
He tightens and loosens a few spare parts
One thing's fixed, another falls apart
And the rich eat you
A magazine says your face don't look quite right
Unless you wear our brand new wonder creme tonight
Never look right again
Unless you grease your skin
Again and again and again and again
Gonna rip you off
Told you're depressed
So of course you see the psychiatrist
Right when you hit your neuroses' roots
He confuses you
He ****s your head up worse
Gotcha feeling helpless
You're comin' back for more
Again and again
Gonna rip you off
Rip you off
Trust your mechanic
To make you well
You're seeing an awful lot of him now
The quicker he makes your life fall apart
The more money you put in his pockets
Trust your mechanic
To plug your holes
Trust him to make more
Somewhere else
Trust your mechanic
He'll always come through
And rip you off
<strong>The patients in gravest condition automatically get vaulted to the front of the line.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
i don't think that is nessecarily true, it might be for some organs but not for others from my understanding. i had an organ transplant.
i also forgot to mention the sicker you are at time of transplant, the more likely it will not be a success. the healthier you are, the better chance of survival
also, they will not transplant you if you are too sick.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: burningwheel ]</p>
yes they will get sued, but they will settle out of court
<strong>they gave her a second transplant because they messed up, they owed it to her. who's to say the recipient of the second set of organs would have faired any better?
yes they will get sued, but they will settle out of court</strong><hr></blockquote>
It won't be possible for the hospital to settle out of court. Lawyers are no doubt swarming the family right now, telling them what to do next. And who can argue with them? The chain of events that lead to the mistake was so unlikely and so ridiculous, there's no excuse.
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
There are two things that need to be fixed here.
<strong>
It won't be possible for the hospital to settle out of court. Lawyers are no doubt swarming the family right now, telling them what to do next. And who can argue with them? The chain of events that lead to the mistake was so unlikely and so ridiculous, there's no excuse.
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
There are two things that need to be fixed here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you think? i suspect they already got too much publicity and the hospital will want to settle out of court if possible
<strong>
you think? i suspect they already got too much publicity and the hospital will want to settle out of court if possible</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course they'll want to, but it's not going to happen.
<strong>
And to those talking about overworked doctors, I think the US is the only country where med students and residents get 48 hour shifts and crap like that. Still, I doubt it had much to do with this particular case.
There are two things that need to be fixed here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately US is not the only one. I remember when i was a residen surgery getting even 72 hours shift. Things are becoming to change, with recovery time after 24 hours shift, but during the recovery time, there is nobody for doing the job. So you replace a tired resident by nobody.
Latest news:
Duke pronounces Jesica brain-dead.
Family asks for second opinion.
Duke pulls plug on life-support before granting second opinion.
Family is now asking for an autopsy to be performed by the county medical examiner at UNC Hospitals, *NOT* Duke.
Duke is just digging themselves in deeper...
anyone know for sure on this?
Well if they hadn't just gone through a botched double organ transplant that their body was rejecting... I'd say they'd have just a slightly better chance.
Yes that was sarcasm.
<strong>isn't brain dead a black or white thing? there are either brain waves or not.
anyone know for sure on this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, but the question is: do you trust the person telling you this?
The faster she died, the faster Duke's problem would be, er... buried. That's all they seem to be concerned with, is their own behinds.
<strong>isn't brain dead a black or white thing? there are either brain waves or not.
anyone know for sure on this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea. You can do a nuc' med' brain scan that shows there to be little blood flow in the brain. Any laymen can see the difference between normal and abnormal. But it can take some time for it to come on. Brain scan one day maybe indeterminate and then 24 hours later it's clear.
<strong>
Yeah, but the question is: do you trust the person telling you this?
The faster she died, the faster Duke's problem would be, er... buried. That's all they seem to be concerned with, is their own behinds.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You know that's just total crap. It's just way too cynical. Maybe because I work in a hospital I find it so insulting. You'd be shocked to find out that they care about people.
<strong>You know that's just total crap. It's just way too cynical. Maybe because I work in a hospital I find it so insulting. You'd be shocked to find out that they care about people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Y'all ain't from around here, are ya?
Duke has a local reputation for cold heartedness in the *administration*. This event has just reinforced that reputation.
The staff, doctors, and medical workers are appalled, aghast and disgusted by the way this has played out. I don't think anyone around here is blaming the practitioners for *this* particular instance. I mean come on... refusing a second opinion on such a fustercluck of a case with public inspection? Doesn't the word 'idiocy' come to mind? What's it going to hurt to delay 24 hours to get a second opinion? All this did was reinforce the feeling around here that the Duke admins could not care less for the good of their patients or their families... if you're in their way to the $, tough.
There is already plenty of rumbling in the ranks about finding employment elsewhere in the area. (Luckily there are several large institutions around here that are in need of more staff.) The Duke medical care is, on the whole, really well regarded. It's the rest of it (billing, administration, policies) that people have a serious problem with around here.
I'm sure the Duke powers that be would like to see this all go away as soon as possible. Put it this way... almost no one around here is surprised to hear that they denied a second opinion on something so critical as whether or not to *pull the plug*. On what basis did the family have *any* reason to trust them, at that point? If she's well and truly flat-lined, then a slight delay isn't going to hurt.
So why deny the family something so fundamentally *basic* as a second opinion?
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
will look for some images....horrible story....always a chance to learn...g
i always loved the images from nuc med bone scans...they look like little bony people...
white area in head shows lack of flow to the brain....this is the accepted standard to prove brain death....
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>