New York artist investigated over Apple Store spyware project

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 99
    captmarkcaptmark Posts: 41member
    Did they have signs up that say you are welcome to use theses computers but only in the way we say!! Without a user agreement in the stores I bet he gets off!!!
  • Reply 42 of 99
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    Did they have signs up that say you are welcome to use theses computers but only in the way we say!! Without a user agreement in the stores I bet he gets off!!!



    I don't think the lack of a user agreement means that the law doesn't apply anymore. Heck, it should be a basically understood courtesy to not install software on computers you don't own without the owner's permission. Kyle McDonald's statements make less sense the more I think of it.



    There is precedence for the criminality of installing even benign programs, there are technicians that risked jail and fines because they installed [email protected], [email protected], etc. on lots of computers where they work.
  • Reply 43 of 99
    pjanderspjanders Posts: 37member
    It's not the criminal acts the "artist" and Apple have to worry about. It's the large number of civil suits that will result from his actions. These will be directed at the "artist" and Apple. The "artist" looks like he's broke so Apple will become the real target.



    The lawyers in NYC (there are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of them there) are probably having a difficult time containing their glee because?the Gates of Heaven have opened!



    Suddenly, the world is a brighter place! Better than hitting the lottery! You are being presented with an opportunity to litigate against a company that has billions in cash reserves! You know you are going to get some of it. How much is limited only by how hard you can squeeze the teat!



    This is a slam-dunk win for the legal community and to a lesser extent their clients. Some attorneys spend their entire career waiting for an opportunity like this. An open and shut case against a company that is swimming in so much cash they don't know what to do with it.



    It will be interesting to see how much money Apple has to part with to repair the damage. Hope it doesn't affect their stock price.
  • Reply 44 of 99
    captmarkcaptmark Posts: 41member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I don't think the lack of a user agreement means that the law doesn't apply anymore. Heck, it should be a basically understood courtesy to not install software on computers you don't own without the owner's permission. Kyle McDonald's statements make less sense the more I think of it.



    I just don't think there any laws that say you can't install software on a computer left in public for your use!!



    Just like I don't think those folks that had their picture taken can sue because when you are in a public place you have no right to privacy!!



    Apple has cameras in the store and each one of them take your picture and walking to and from the store you might have your picture taken 100 times!!
  • Reply 45 of 99
    robin huberrobin huber Posts: 3,715member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post


    Well, the Macs are actually there to Be testet out. If the Artists Test was to See if the Software Works then it is Not fraud. And everyone who Used them Saw that the Camera light was Lit up. So: they got Warner, it was signaled that the Cam was on.



    However, i am glad the Artist showed the Problem of a Built in Camera. Theoretically it can be switched on at any Time - remotely. We all forget about it, but it's a fact. And in this case apple is to blame, because they don't even design the cam so that you can close the camera hole with a sliding element (or so)...



    You are employing the hacker defense, that it's okay to break in to someone's system in order to show that it's weak. I hope you'll allow me to break in to your house and go through your stuff just because I can find a way to pick your cheap locks.



    As far as the store Macs being tested? If I test drive your car prior to sale can I sneak back to my garage and install a turbo just to see if the engine can handle it without blowing up?
  • Reply 46 of 99
    citycity Posts: 522member
    An Apple employee pointed out a celebrity in the store. I asked the employee if I could take a picture with my phone. I took the picture of the celebrity with his bodyguard glaring at me.
  • Reply 47 of 99
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    I just don't think there any laws that say you can't install software on a computer left in public for your use!!



    Those computers are private property. They're there to demonstrate computers so people can decide to buy them. Because you're allowed to use the demo machines doesn't mean it's legal to install software on hundreds of them, then go back and reinstall it when they get wiped. This is covered by hacking laws.



    Quote:

    Just like I don't think those folks that had their picture taken can sue because when you are in a public place you have no right to privacy!!



    I'm sure most Apple Stores are on private property. They're even allowed to control the photography in use if they so choose.



    Quote:

    Apple has cameras in the store and each one of them take your picture and walking to and from the store you might have your picture taken 100 times!!



    Apple has a legitimate need for store security, and those images are not shown publicly except if there is a crime. Kyle McDonald installed software to transmit photos for use outside of Apple, for his personal use and also for redistribution. It doesn't take much of a stretch to read that as espionage, the only mitigating factor is intent. I don't know how he intended to use the pictures, but if he uses them in a display to the public is getting into shaky ground, using a computer doesn't give artists the right to use the picture. The pictures posted to the internet might be questionable. That's a different degree than someone being in the background.
  • Reply 48 of 99
    pjanderspjanders Posts: 37member
    Surveillance conducted by a business or residence for security purposes is allowed by the law. You should always assume you are being photographed when on the premises of a business.



    Also-



    The Apple Store is a privately owned space, not a public space.
  • Reply 49 of 99
    captmarkcaptmark Posts: 41member
    I just read thru the federal computer hacking laws and it talks about "protected" computers, I don't think those were ever intended to be protected.



    it also talks about "having knowingly accessed a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access" that is where they are going to get him. but I think he can argue that if he didn't use a fake or hacked password I think he could argue he didn't do anything wrong!!



    http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer-hacking/
  • Reply 50 of 99
    captmarkcaptmark Posts: 41member
    So how is this different?? this is on Apple's web site!!



    http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthave...timelapse.html
  • Reply 51 of 99
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    I just don't think there any laws that say you can't install software on a computer left in public for your use!!



    Just like I don't think those folks that had their picture taken can sue because when you are in a public place you have no right to privacy!!




    How do you think it's public? It's private property of AAPL, isn't it?
  • Reply 52 of 99
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    So how is this different?? this is on Apple's web site!!



    http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthave...timelapse.html



    www.apple.com. Did you notice it?
  • Reply 53 of 99
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    So how is this different?? this is on Apple's web site!!



    http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthave...timelapse.html



    How is that similar? I bet that Apple paid for the equipment used to take those pictures rather than altering someone else's property they didn't have clear permission to alter. I also bet that camera was clearly identifiable as likely taking pictures. Also, with that imagery, they're not trading on anyone's likeness, and none of them are in the foreground to the same degree.
  • Reply 54 of 99
    When apple stored my location via my iPhone it didn't really worry me. But this worries me far less. I think it's funny that the "smaller government" lunatics are the same set that want everything outlawed and punitive damages for everything. All we need is a law that says all behavior is illegal. Then, if some corporation has a problem with someone, you 'wads can all climb up on your highest horse and say, "Defending this guy is like defending a baby-murderer. He broke the LAW. Don't you have any respect for the LAW?" To which any civilized person would reply, "Of course not."
  • Reply 55 of 99
    pjanderspjanders Posts: 37member
    This has nothing to do with politics. It's a matter of the law.



    This concerns the right of individuals who are under no suspicion from law enforcement to be free from unwarranted and surreptitious surveillance.



    There is also a privacy issue to contend with since these photos were made available to anyone who has an Internet connection.
  • Reply 56 of 99
    pjanderspjanders Posts: 37member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by captmark View Post


    So how is this different?? this is on Apple's web site!!



    http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthave...timelapse.html



    I've never been to the Fifth Avenue Apple Store but these people (at least the ones closest to the camera) look they are on a public sidewalk. If that is true then they can be legally photographed without their permission.
  • Reply 57 of 99
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pjanders View Post


    This has nothing to do with politics. It's a matter of the law.



    This concerns the right of individuals who are under no suspicion from law enforcement to be free from unwarranted and surreptitious surveillance.



    There is also a privacy issue to contend with since these photos were made available to anyone who has an Internet connection.



    Did you know any time you go out in public anyone with eyes can see you? I'd say that's a privacy issue and something needs to be done to stop it. Clearly eyes must be outlawed.



    To believe that politics and law are unrelated is fantastically idealistic. You have a wonderful imagination, if nothing else.
  • Reply 58 of 99
    pjanderspjanders Posts: 37member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    Did you know any time you go out in public anyone with eyes can see you? I'd say that's a privacy issue and something needs to be done to stop it. Clearly eyes must be outlawed.



    To believe that politics and law are unrelated is fantastically idealistic. You have a wonderful imagination, if nothing else.



    When you are in public you have no expectation of privacy. This a settled matter in the legal community.



    Being surveilled and photographed without your knowledge while on private property is another matter entirely. Having those photos posted in a public place so millions can see them is even more serious.



    Every American?regardless of their political beliefs?should be concerned when an incident like this occurs and more importantly, how it is settled.
  • Reply 59 of 99
    captmarkcaptmark Posts: 41member
    When you walk in a department store unless you are in a fitting room I don't think you have the reasonable expectation that you are in a private space!!



    Yes the store is Apple's property but unless you ask apple to lock the doors and keep everyone else out you are really in "public" . and you have to expect that at some point every day somebody is going to take your picture and in todays day 1 in 10 are going to put them on the internet!!
  • Reply 60 of 99
    So if you go to a baseball game does your rule apply? If I don't want my image on tv how do I express that; I never signed an agreement? Supposing I go to Disneyland and snap a picture there? Is there an assumption that everyone in my picture is aware of and consents to my taking their picture?



    A thousand anecdotal examples could be given where this type of behavior is not seen as illegal. It won't stop you flag wavers from screaming for blood though.
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