This thread reminds me of the creation 'science' one.
Take a position, then interpret all evidence through that belief.
Nicely said, Though it gets messy when some one asks for proof and the other does not have it.
Quote:
So here were are a year later and NO WMD.
Bill Clinton got blown in the Oval office (while on the phone no less) lied about it and nearly got impeached.
Bush, Cheney, Powel and Rumsfeld have clearly lied to the American people and there isn't a single big time inquiry going on. Where are all the same republicans who salivated at the mouth for getting Clinton? Where are the Ken Star independent councils?
Some heads should be rolling.
Except they are in no way the same. Clinton has a sex scandle, Thats between him and her. Bush uses intel to come to the conclusion that they have weapons of mass destruction. Thats what a president does. He then relays the intel to the people and ask for a war. How is this Bush's fault the intel was bad?
And yes there are several inquires going on about the intel. So I have to ask you this. Prove that he lied, thats a very serious allegation to make and I am sure that you would not make it with out some kind of proof that he lied and padded the intel.
Interesting.....but not unexpected. What were they all thinking? or not?
Did the media abdicate their public duty to inform, or was our supposedly free media (!!!!!!!...you know...... Clear Channel, Fox etc) being overtaken by the political agenda of their friends in the Bush administration?
If the media had had the guts, courage and independence to tell the people the facts, public support for this piece of foreign policy idiocy would have been minimal.
Does America have free media any more? Is our democracy strong enough to handle a free media? Do we still have a free republic? .... Or have we becoming "sovietized".......a neo-totalitarianism where central government holds the reins of information, and the people are not qualified to know? The people of this country is what scares the Bush administration witless.....hence the "war of terror" and all the lies that they throw up, for its ill-gotten "public support" for it.
Incidentally, anyone who bothered to attend an anti-war rally...(there were hundreds by the way)...would have known this information without having to rely on television and radio for it. And...if it was freely available to the US people on the city streets, then you can bet your lives that the US government knew that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time the war was launched.
Bush, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Cheney and the rest of this sorry bunch of political hacks posing as a legitimate government can eat all the crow pie I can shove down their sick gullets.
That freakazoid terrorist asshole George W. Bush and his lying crew of thugs aren't even worth spitting at. Roll on November....and we the people can kick his illegitimate ass out of the White House.
There are a lot of problems with the CIA overall, problems that are now rightly being focused on. Some of these problems are administrative, some deal with information flow, but the whole thing is pretty detailed and goes far beyond Iraq. It's somewhat boring organizational stuff.
But as far as Iraq intel in particular is concerned, the main focus needs to be on the OSD and VP's office.
That saddam had drones that could hit the US, for instance.
I mean, there really are so many untruths we could go over it all night.
Now, which ones of those were lies involves looking at the sources, the vetting and the presentation.
Most specific information about Iraq WMD came from Chalabi's group, who were known at the time to be liars. The more general info came primarily from the OSP cutting and pasting CIA/DIA reports with Chalabi info.
We can also look at the situations such as the one discussed in the first post of this thread. The evidence taken in its entirety pointed to an Iraq without WMD capabilities. The administration knowingly ignored or discounted the mountain of evidence that countered their position.
Clearly, there was deliberate deception.
However, I will concede that there is the possibility that they were all just completely blind, bumbling idiots.
*Iraq had imported 500 tons of semi-enriched Uranium (yellowcake) from Niger
*Iraq had drones capable of flying thousands of miles and dropping chemical and biological weapons onthe US mainland.
*Iraq could make ready chemical and biological agents for an attack within 45 minutes
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
*Iraq has/had an ongoing nuclear program
*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories
*Iraq was hiding WMDs from the UN inspectors
*Rumsfeld: "Saddams' WMDs are in an area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, weat and west of there, sort of..."
*The entire administratation: "Iraq has close ties to Osama bin Laden, and al Qaida"
Shall I continue?
How many heads have rolled?
Where is the grand jury and special prosecutor?
Why was the intelligence community roundly ignored?
Imagine if this fiasco had been started by a White House, or Senate, or Congress with Democrats in charge? Yikes. how many $$$billions in taxpayer funds would the Repuglicans be baying for?
Are the Bush crew pathological liars, or bumbling incompetent idiots? Or both? If either or both, then what the hell are they doing in the seats of power of the worlds most powerful nation? Or have the voting public taken leave of their senses, blinded by the lies of their cohorts in the corporate media?
*Iraq had imported 500 tons of semi-enriched Uranium (yellowcake) from Niger
*Iraq had drones capable of flying thousands of miles and dropping chemical and biological weapons onthe US mainland.
*Iraq could make ready chemical and biological agents for an attack within 45 minutes
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
*Iraq has/had an ongoing nuclear program
*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories
*Iraq was hiding WMDs from the UN inspectors
*Rumsfeld: "Saddams' WMDs are in an area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, weat and west of there, sort of..."
*The entire administratation: "Iraq has close ties to Osama bin Laden, and al Qaida"
Shall I continue?
How many heads have rolled?
Where is the grand jury and special prosecutor?
Why was the intelligence community roundly ignored?
Imagine if this fiasco had been started by a White House, or Senate, or Congress with Democrats in charge? Yikes. how many $$$billions in taxpayer funds would the Repuglicans be baying for?
Are the Bush crew pathological liars, or bumbling incompetent idiots? Or both? If either or both, then what the hell are they doing in the seats of power of the worlds most powerful nation? Or have the voting public taken leave of their senses, blinded by the lies of their cohorts in the corporate media?
You see these statements have part of actual quotes in them. Watch as I dispel each and every one....
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
GWB said intelligence believed he had the materials to make the WMD and approx. 30,000 munitions that had the capability to deliver them if he made them:
"The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.
Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.
U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them." - GWB SOU speech
"The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb." - GWB SOU speech
If you read this you will see he was stating previously known IAEA information.
[i]*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories [/B]
"From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents, and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them." - GWB SOU speech
Comments
Take a position, then interpret all evidence through that belief.
This thread reminds me of the creation 'science' one.
Take a position, then interpret all evidence through that belief.
Nicely said, Though it gets messy when some one asks for proof and the other does not have it.
So here were are a year later and NO WMD.
Bill Clinton got blown in the Oval office (while on the phone no less) lied about it and nearly got impeached.
Bush, Cheney, Powel and Rumsfeld have clearly lied to the American people and there isn't a single big time inquiry going on. Where are all the same republicans who salivated at the mouth for getting Clinton? Where are the Ken Star independent councils?
Some heads should be rolling.
Except they are in no way the same. Clinton has a sex scandle, Thats between him and her. Bush uses intel to come to the conclusion that they have weapons of mass destruction. Thats what a president does. He then relays the intel to the people and ask for a war. How is this Bush's fault the intel was bad?
And yes there are several inquires going on about the intel. So I have to ask you this. Prove that he lied, thats a very serious allegation to make and I am sure that you would not make it with out some kind of proof that he lied and padded the intel.
Originally posted by giant
The intelligence came from the administration.
They made it up? Why are the head of the CIA, FBI and what not even being questioned then if they had nothing to do with it?
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
They made it up? Why are the head of the CIA, FBI and what not even being questioned then if they had nothing to do with it?
Good question.
Has shulsky even been drilled yet? Anyone know?
Did the media abdicate their public duty to inform, or was our supposedly free media (!!!!!!!...you know...... Clear Channel, Fox etc) being overtaken by the political agenda of their friends in the Bush administration?
If the media had had the guts, courage and independence to tell the people the facts, public support for this piece of foreign policy idiocy would have been minimal.
Does America have free media any more? Is our democracy strong enough to handle a free media? Do we still have a free republic? .... Or have we becoming "sovietized".......a neo-totalitarianism where central government holds the reins of information, and the people are not qualified to know? The people of this country is what scares the Bush administration witless.....hence the "war of terror" and all the lies that they throw up, for its ill-gotten "public support" for it.
Incidentally, anyone who bothered to attend an anti-war rally...(there were hundreds by the way)...would have known this information without having to rely on television and radio for it. And...if it was freely available to the US people on the city streets, then you can bet your lives that the US government knew that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time the war was launched.
Bush, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Cheney and the rest of this sorry bunch of political hacks posing as a legitimate government can eat all the crow pie I can shove down their sick gullets.
That freakazoid terrorist asshole George W. Bush and his lying crew of thugs aren't even worth spitting at. Roll on November....and we the people can kick his illegitimate ass out of the White House.
...Diebold permitting
But as far as Iraq intel in particular is concerned, the main focus needs to be on the OSD and VP's office.
That freakazoid terrorist asshole George W. Bush and his lying crew of thugs aren't even worth spitting at.
What lies? What are these lies?
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
What lies? What are these lies?
That saddam had drones that could hit the US, for instance.
I mean, there really are so many untruths we could go over it all night.
Now, which ones of those were lies involves looking at the sources, the vetting and the presentation.
Most specific information about Iraq WMD came from Chalabi's group, who were known at the time to be liars. The more general info came primarily from the OSP cutting and pasting CIA/DIA reports with Chalabi info.
We can also look at the situations such as the one discussed in the first post of this thread. The evidence taken in its entirety pointed to an Iraq without WMD capabilities. The administration knowingly ignored or discounted the mountain of evidence that countered their position.
Clearly, there was deliberate deception.
However, I will concede that there is the possibility that they were all just completely blind, bumbling idiots.
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
What lies? What are these lies?
*Iraq had imported 500 tons of semi-enriched Uranium (yellowcake) from Niger
*Iraq had drones capable of flying thousands of miles and dropping chemical and biological weapons onthe US mainland.
*Iraq could make ready chemical and biological agents for an attack within 45 minutes
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
*Iraq has/had an ongoing nuclear program
*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories
*Iraq was hiding WMDs from the UN inspectors
*Rumsfeld: "Saddams' WMDs are in an area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, weat and west of there, sort of..."
*The entire administratation: "Iraq has close ties to Osama bin Laden, and al Qaida"
Shall I continue?
How many heads have rolled?
Where is the grand jury and special prosecutor?
Why was the intelligence community roundly ignored?
Imagine if this fiasco had been started by a White House, or Senate, or Congress with Democrats in charge? Yikes. how many $$$billions in taxpayer funds would the Repuglicans be baying for?
Are the Bush crew pathological liars, or bumbling incompetent idiots? Or both? If either or both, then what the hell are they doing in the seats of power of the worlds most powerful nation? Or have the voting public taken leave of their senses, blinded by the lies of their cohorts in the corporate media?
Originally posted by giant
That saddam had drones that could hit the US, for instance.
Please at least be honest. It is making me wanna puke.
GWB said this about the drones:
"We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using UAVs for missions targeting the United States."
Read it carefully. He said they were concerned about what they might use them for. That included possible use against the US.
Get real.
Spin, spin, spin... Spin, spin, spin... shake that booty...
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq had imported 500 tons of semi-enriched Uranium (yellowcake) from Niger
*Iraq had drones capable of flying thousands of miles and dropping chemical and biological weapons onthe US mainland.
*Iraq could make ready chemical and biological agents for an attack within 45 minutes
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
*Iraq has/had an ongoing nuclear program
*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories
*Iraq was hiding WMDs from the UN inspectors
*Rumsfeld: "Saddams' WMDs are in an area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, weat and west of there, sort of..."
*The entire administratation: "Iraq has close ties to Osama bin Laden, and al Qaida"
Shall I continue?
How many heads have rolled?
Where is the grand jury and special prosecutor?
Why was the intelligence community roundly ignored?
Imagine if this fiasco had been started by a White House, or Senate, or Congress with Democrats in charge? Yikes. how many $$$billions in taxpayer funds would the Repuglicans be baying for?
Are the Bush crew pathological liars, or bumbling incompetent idiots? Or both? If either or both, then what the hell are they doing in the seats of power of the worlds most powerful nation? Or have the voting public taken leave of their senses, blinded by the lies of their cohorts in the corporate media?
You see these statements have part of actual quotes in them. Watch as I dispel each and every one....
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq had imported 500 tons of semi-enriched Uranium (yellowcake) from Niger
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." GWB SOU speech.
Notice some key words sought - not bought, I know it rhymes but.. come on.
Significant quantities - does not equal 500 tons.
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq had drones capable of flying thousands of miles and dropping chemical and biological weapons onthe US mainland.
See reply to Giant.
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq could make ready chemical and biological agents for an attack within 45 minutes
This was based on this man's testimony commented on by The Telegraph:
http://cshink.com/WMD_within_45min.htm
If it was a lie it was the iraqi officer lied. So point the finger squarely at who deserves it.
Edit: Deploy not make. According to that guy, it could have easily been 1/2 hour.
Originally posted by sammi jo
How many heads have rolled?
Just one. George Tenet, who I imagine is getting tired of falling on his sword.
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq had enough anthrax, botulinum, and sarin to fill some 28 thousand warheads
GWB said intelligence believed he had the materials to make the WMD and approx. 30,000 munitions that had the capability to deliver them if he made them:
"The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.
Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.
U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them." - GWB SOU speech
Originally posted by sammi jo
*Iraq has/had an ongoing nuclear program
"The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb." - GWB SOU speech
If you read this you will see he was stating previously known IAEA information.
Once again IAEA, not Bush.
[i]*Saddam Hussein had mobile biological weapons factories [/B]
"From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents, and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them." - GWB SOU speech
forget about these:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...sprj.irq.labs/
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...2922-6267r.htm
and before you start saying they were not what they appear to be:
http://www.isis-online.org/publicati...bile_labs.html
let's see, Some defectors say there are these labs and after the invasion, bam we find these trucks that look vary familiar... Hmmm?
Don't they look like those trucks that powel showed the UN drawings of?