<strong>the most pervasive and damaging stereotype is that which is left unexamined. stereotypes by definition are left unexamined.
"America is the land of the brave, and the home of the free.
- a man is arrested for wearing a t-shirt with the wording: give peace a chance. yes, he was released later, only after the mall owners dropped the charges. but WHY DID THE POLICE ARREST HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong.
[quote]Originally posted by niji:
<strong>- pervasive easedropping in all forms.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong
[quote]Originally posted by niji:
<strong>- now, all persons, including naturalized american citizens can be held incommunacado for weeks, months. there is no trial, no habeas corpus, no arraignment.
That's quite an eye opener. I guess that's why only a relatively small percentage of Americans travel abroad. They have no need to, as they have all possible environments (and cultures) in their own country, or even their own state.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't forget, they have less ability to travel abroad too. I have to travel 500 miles+ to get to Mexico, and twice that to get to Canada. To my west, several thousand miles of ocean. To my right, a ~3000 miles of this country.
The closest state, Nevada, is 200 miles away...On the east coast, it's much more common to cross state lines for short day trips and such...it never happens here...
Train service in Europe also seems much more extensive. On my last trip to Europe in 1991, we flew to London, drove down to Dover, took the ferry to Normandy, drove to Paris, took the train to Geneva, and zig-zagged from Geneva to Zermatt to Zurich and Lake Constance. American trains are slow, big, and there are enough of them...if you miss your train, you're screwed.
<strong>Now now, play nice groverat. You don't want to further that stereotype that Americans are assholes.
Race is another thing. You might not even know it in Europe but within 50 years the Hispanic population of the US will be as large as that of the entire population of almost any country in Europe save Germany and maybe France (and Russia if you want to consider their entire population European). And the Asian population is over 10 million as well now IIRC. Of course, that might not be readily apparent if you just paid attention to American politics and media.
Living in the state that has the largest existing and growing population I would take those numbers and slow them down a bit....Taking something and exponentially increasing it for a few years... the Dow Jones is just hitting 20,000 right now, yes?
I just laugh when I read them. I always ask, do you think the hispanic girls graduating now are going to have 6 children like their mother or grandmother did? If anything they are just as career oriented and 1.8 kids per family oriented as "white" American women.
While I'm from Minnesota, I go to school in Wisconsin, and there is a lot of sterotypes that are fulfilled here. Driving down rural routes, you'll hit towns that literally have a church, a school, and at least one bar, maybe more. The Green Bay Packers are second only to God (or possibly equal) and the football season is almost a holy time. So to sum up the state of Wisconsin: Beer, brats, cheese, Packers.
[quote]Living in the state that has the largest existing and growing population I would take those numbers and slow them down a bit....Taking something and expounding endless on it for a few years... the Dow Jones is just hitting 20,000 right now, yes?
I just laugh when I read them. I always ask, do you think the hispanic girls graduating now are going to have 6 children like their mother or grandmother did? If anything they are just as career oriented and 1.8 kids per family oriented as "white" American women.
Cool your heels there buddy.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think so. 30 million Hispanics now. Double that at 60 million would be about the level that I am talking about. I don't have the average population growth at my fingertips but it is between 1% and 2% and if it is about 1.4% or so which I believe to be the case then when you then compound it over 50 years you would see a doubling. Never mind that the Hispanic growth rate is vastly higher than that. I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest what I suggested. If you took the growth rate of hispanics over the last two decades and projected it out, I dunno what it would be but it would be a hell of a lot more than what I am asserting.
trumpetman, it's not only the birthrate in the hispanic population accounting for their population growthrate. Much of that grothrate is just the result of immigration...legal or not.
<strong>...If someones from Pennsylvania, I imagine they're an inbred hillbilly with goofy teeth, a checked shirt, breeches and a shot gun....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whoa. Hold on bloke. That's just the western half of Pennsylvania.
I went to London back in 2001 and loved the city, people, culture and history in general. But in some ways it was a lot like Philly or any metropolitan city in the US.
Still, my preconcieved notions were coming from a few movies (Blow-Up) and especially from the british music scene (from punk to mod). I used to read the NME back in the late 70's early 80's and was amazed at all the hundreds of clubs and bands performing every night there. And their was the Public Broadcasting System with Monty Python, Faulty Towers, Doctor Who, Prisoner and Space 1999 episodes they showed.
<strong>And their was the Public Broadcasting System with Monty Python, Faulty Towers, Doctor Who, Prisoner and Space 1999 episodes they showed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to nitpick, but The Prisoner (a personal favourite) and Space 1999 (now, that's just laughable), that's from commercial televison. ITV or something.
Public service television has been going south since they cancelled Yes Prime Minister if you ask me.
Yeah, my notions about the UK are STRONGLY influenced by BBC imported programming. I still have visions of a caped Jon Pertwee riding Betsy across a field strewn with giant maggots.........that, and Mr. Moulturd walking around going "Ooooo Arrrr, Ooooo Arrrrr" while Mrs. Slocombe talks about her pussy (how old did that cat live to BE for gosh sakes?)...hehehe....
I was in London back in Christmas of '84 on a really short trip, so no chance to try and pick out all the dialects of the people we met. Would have been fun.
RodUK,
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the cultural homogenization of America. Anyone living in one of the larger towns has the same big-box merchants as their friends on the other side of the country. All the bigger towns have a Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, Home Depot, Old Navy, Target, Starbucks and every conceivable fast food outlet you can name.
If I go to another city to work I drive around, find all those familiar stores and I'm in business. Put five college kids from five different cities together in a mid-sized city that they've never been to before and they'd all be at home in one day. We retain our native accents and dialects to some degree, but a LOT of people speak like our news reporters...people who are from a place that's been called "Generica" by others.
I'm a native of Atlanta and grew up here knowing all of the colloquial pronunciations of our place names. Every month or two I'll hear some new newscaster absolutely MURDER the pronunciation of a place as they assume that it's said in a 'classier' manner than it actually is. I'm betting everyone here has experienced that before.
As far as the stereotypes of the South?
Super complicated and nothing like the simpleton presentations put forward in most movies you see. Racism exists all over the country. In the South the older generation of blacks and whites learned some arcane dance-politic that allowed them to communicate with more civility than a lot of other places. I've heard nasty things about places like Detroit.
There IS something about Atlanta and professional sports teams. We just can't seem to take sports as "seriously" as people from the north, something they point out to us all the time...and to which we go "okay, so what?". I guess the the fact we have better weather, for more of the year, makes us less worried about how the teams are doing. College football is another matter, that's a subculture that permeates the nation just like soccer does in UK.
I can talk like a southerner anytime I want to drop into the dialect, and choose to do so in certain situations when people start to think that they're smarter than I am. Not that people don't do that all over the world....
[quote]For example, if someones from Kansas, I imagine they live on a farm surrounded by wheat fields, with a sister called Dorothy and a dog called Toto. If someones from California, I imagine they're a bronzed hunk who straps a surfboard to the top of their jeep and heads off for the beach everyday. If someones from Texas, I imagine them riding around a ranch wearing a stetson, chaps and spurs. If someones from Pennsylvania, I imagine they're an inbred hillbilly with goofy teeth, a checked shirt, breeches and a shot gun. <hr></blockquote>
Do you have bad teeth and eat tea and crumpets at noon?
Come on you're making you self sound as stupid as that guy in the Metamucil or whatever commercial who's like "Fast? What does that mean? ...blah regular blah.. Fast? I still don't know what that means, but I know what Metamucil does." Do you guys all dress up like Austin Powers??
I'm from Vermont so naturally I go cow-tipping often, and eat Ben & Jerries and maple syrup (sounds like a good combo, I'll try). Actually that's true besides the cow-tipping part.
Someone said something here once I'll always remember though: stereotypes are necessary, they help the human mind classify things. How would you even walk if you had to think about each step with discriminating against the other steps, makng sure one wasn't better than the other? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
This is a great thread. groverat is awesome. This is why AI rocks.
edit:
[quote] Mrs. Slocombe talks about her pussy <hr></blockquote>
Oh my god you are awesome. Yeah Britcoms. That's what you get when you only have 1 channel in ol' Vermont where there's no town water...1 1/2 channels if you count good ol' PBS.
<strong>i would just like to point out that in california now, non-hispanic whites are the minority (well, at 47% as of 2000). we finally kill the stereotype of the blonde-haired-blue-eyed california boys and girls! </strong><hr></blockquote>
You do realise you’ve just shattered a childhood illusion of mine, don't you
I should have mentioned 60's music also plays a part in the stereotypical view I have of Americans.
You mean to say California girls don’t wear colourful clothes, the sunlight doesn’t play upon their hair, and worst of all, you can’t pick up good vibrations from them? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
Do the men actually get around, at all? If they don’t drive T-Birds, little deuce coupes or 409s, what exactly do they drive?
<strong>But why not visit the US to find out? Who knows what you would find out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's funny you should say that, it's one of the reasons I asked the question. At some point in the future I'd like to travel further afield, and the US (and Canada) are at the top of my list. The thing is though, I'd like to see what I believe to be the real America, but I'm not sure the degree to which it exists. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I remember shocking people in England with the news that we'd driven up to Scotland for the weekend once. We were in Canterbury. It was only 500 miles or so, but the locals acted like we'd crawled to Japan on our hands and knees for lunch. It was funny.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You did what? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
Do you mean Canterbury as in Canterbury Kent, in the south east corner of England? Scotlands way up north, at the other end of the country infact. :eek:
There's lots of shit you don't know about me. <hr></blockquote>
Why don't you tell us then once you're done milking Bevo.
[quote]You mean to say California girls don?t wear colourful clothes, the sunlight doesn?t play upon their hair, and worst of all, you can?t pick up good vibrations from them?<hr></blockquote>
You can get those good vibrations but you gotta hit the G spot just right.
[quote]Do the men actually get around, at all? If they don?t drive T-Birds, little deuce coupes or 409s, what exactly do they drive?<hr></blockquote>
I drive a gray colored, or grey coloured if you like, Honda Accord. It doesn't work too well as a chick magnet when I'm cruising the strip, but then I don't cruise the strip so that's OK. I spend all of my time at the drive in anyway.
[quote]It's funny you should say that, it's one of the reasons I asked the question. At some point in the future I'd like to travel further afield, and the US (and Canada) are at the top of my list. The thing is though, I'd like to see what I believe to be the real America, but I'm not sure the degree to which it exists.<hr></blockquote>
In all seriousness, you would find bits and pieces, but not like some movie. On the other hand, you might find some things that would be pleasant surprises. Or maybe not. Try Las Vegas perhaps, it might be as close to the stereotype of crass gaudy banality in all its glory as any place.
[quote]I don't even want to know the stereotypes about NH.<hr></blockquote>
I would imagine that if you asked Rod he would tell you that he doesn't have much of a conception of New Hampshire. Likewise for say Oregon, New Mexico, Oklahoma etc. Some states are higher profile than others and New Hampshire ain't one of them.
Comments
<strong>the most pervasive and damaging stereotype is that which is left unexamined. stereotypes by definition are left unexamined.
"America is the land of the brave, and the home of the free.
- a man is arrested for wearing a t-shirt with the wording: give peace a chance. yes, he was released later, only after the mall owners dropped the charges. but WHY DID THE POLICE ARREST HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong.
[quote]Originally posted by niji:
<strong>- pervasive easedropping in all forms.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong
[quote]Originally posted by niji:
<strong>- now, all persons, including naturalized american citizens can be held incommunacado for weeks, months. there is no trial, no habeas corpus, no arraignment.
..</strong><hr></blockquote>
... and Wrong.
Three strikes. YOU'RE OUT!
<strong>
That's quite an eye opener. I guess that's why only a relatively small percentage of Americans travel abroad. They have no need to, as they have all possible environments (and cultures) in their own country, or even their own state.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't forget, they have less ability to travel abroad too. I have to travel 500 miles+ to get to Mexico, and twice that to get to Canada. To my west, several thousand miles of ocean. To my right, a ~3000 miles of this country.
The closest state, Nevada, is 200 miles away...On the east coast, it's much more common to cross state lines for short day trips and such...it never happens here...
Train service in Europe also seems much more extensive. On my last trip to Europe in 1991, we flew to London, drove down to Dover, took the ferry to Normandy, drove to Paris, took the train to Geneva, and zig-zagged from Geneva to Zermatt to Zurich and Lake Constance. American trains are slow, big, and there are enough of them...if you miss your train, you're screwed.
<strong>Now now, play nice groverat. You don't want to further that stereotype that Americans are assholes.
Race is another thing. You might not even know it in Europe but within 50 years the Hispanic population of the US will be as large as that of the entire population of almost any country in Europe save Germany and maybe France (and Russia if you want to consider their entire population European). And the Asian population is over 10 million as well now IIRC. Of course, that might not be readily apparent if you just paid attention to American politics and media.
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: ColanderOfDeath ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Living in the state that has the largest existing and growing population I would take those numbers and slow them down a bit....Taking something and exponentially increasing it for a few years... the Dow Jones is just hitting 20,000 right now, yes?
I just laugh when I read them. I always ask, do you think the hispanic girls graduating now are going to have 6 children like their mother or grandmother did? If anything they are just as career oriented and 1.8 kids per family oriented as "white" American women.
Cool your heels there buddy.
Nick
[ 03-06-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
I just laugh when I read them. I always ask, do you think the hispanic girls graduating now are going to have 6 children like their mother or grandmother did? If anything they are just as career oriented and 1.8 kids per family oriented as "white" American women.
Cool your heels there buddy.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think so. 30 million Hispanics now. Double that at 60 million would be about the level that I am talking about. I don't have the average population growth at my fingertips but it is between 1% and 2% and if it is about 1.4% or so which I believe to be the case then when you then compound it over 50 years you would see a doubling. Never mind that the Hispanic growth rate is vastly higher than that. I think it is entirely reasonable to suggest what I suggested. If you took the growth rate of hispanics over the last two decades and projected it out, I dunno what it would be but it would be a hell of a lot more than what I am asserting.
<strong>...If someones from Pennsylvania, I imagine they're an inbred hillbilly with goofy teeth, a checked shirt, breeches and a shot gun....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whoa. Hold on bloke. That's just the western half of Pennsylvania.
I went to London back in 2001 and loved the city, people, culture and history in general. But in some ways it was a lot like Philly or any metropolitan city in the US.
Still, my preconcieved notions were coming from a few movies (Blow-Up) and especially from the british music scene (from punk to mod). I used to read the NME back in the late 70's early 80's and was amazed at all the hundreds of clubs and bands performing every night there. And their was the Public Broadcasting System with Monty Python, Faulty Towers, Doctor Who, Prisoner and Space 1999 episodes they showed.
I think Japan is just one big Godzilla movie...
<strong>Now now, play nice groverat. You don't want to further that stereotype that Americans are assholes.
I'm completely serious.
There's lots of shit you don't know about me.
<strong>And their was the Public Broadcasting System with Monty Python, Faulty Towers, Doctor Who, Prisoner and Space 1999 episodes they showed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to nitpick, but The Prisoner (a personal favourite) and Space 1999 (now, that's just laughable), that's from commercial televison. ITV or something.
Public service television has been going south since they cancelled Yes Prime Minister if you ask me.
I was in London back in Christmas of '84 on a really short trip, so no chance to try and pick out all the dialects of the people we met. Would have been fun.
RodUK,
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the cultural homogenization of America. Anyone living in one of the larger towns has the same big-box merchants as their friends on the other side of the country. All the bigger towns have a Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, Home Depot, Old Navy, Target, Starbucks and every conceivable fast food outlet you can name.
If I go to another city to work I drive around, find all those familiar stores and I'm in business. Put five college kids from five different cities together in a mid-sized city that they've never been to before and they'd all be at home in one day. We retain our native accents and dialects to some degree, but a LOT of people speak like our news reporters...people who are from a place that's been called "Generica" by others.
I'm a native of Atlanta and grew up here knowing all of the colloquial pronunciations of our place names. Every month or two I'll hear some new newscaster absolutely MURDER the pronunciation of a place as they assume that it's said in a 'classier' manner than it actually is. I'm betting everyone here has experienced that before.
As far as the stereotypes of the South?
Super complicated and nothing like the simpleton presentations put forward in most movies you see. Racism exists all over the country. In the South the older generation of blacks and whites learned some arcane dance-politic that allowed them to communicate with more civility than a lot of other places. I've heard nasty things about places like Detroit.
There IS something about Atlanta and professional sports teams. We just can't seem to take sports as "seriously" as people from the north, something they point out to us all the time...and to which we go "okay, so what?". I guess the the fact we have better weather, for more of the year, makes us less worried about how the teams are doing. College football is another matter, that's a subculture that permeates the nation just like soccer does in UK.
I can talk like a southerner anytime I want to drop into the dialect, and choose to do so in certain situations when people start to think that they're smarter than I am. Not that people don't do that all over the world....
Do you have bad teeth and eat tea and crumpets at noon?
Come on you're making you self sound as stupid as that guy in the Metamucil or whatever commercial who's like "Fast? What does that mean? ...blah regular blah.. Fast? I still don't know what that means, but I know what Metamucil does." Do you guys all dress up like Austin Powers??
I'm from Vermont so naturally I go cow-tipping often, and eat Ben & Jerries and maple syrup (sounds like a good combo, I'll try). Actually that's true besides the cow-tipping part.
Someone said something here once I'll always remember though: stereotypes are necessary, they help the human mind classify things. How would you even walk if you had to think about each step with discriminating against the other steps, makng sure one wasn't better than the other? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
This is a great thread. groverat is awesome. This is why AI rocks.
edit:
[quote] Mrs. Slocombe talks about her pussy <hr></blockquote>
Oh my god you are awesome. Yeah Britcoms. That's what you get when you only have 1 channel in ol' Vermont where there's no town water...1 1/2 channels if you count good ol' PBS.
[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: Aquatic ]</p>
<strong>i would just like to point out that in california now, non-hispanic whites are the minority (well, at 47% as of 2000). we finally kill the stereotype of the blonde-haired-blue-eyed california boys and girls!
You do realise you’ve just shattered a childhood illusion of mine, don't you
I should have mentioned 60's music also plays a part in the stereotypical view I have of Americans.
You mean to say California girls don’t wear colourful clothes, the sunlight doesn’t play upon their hair, and worst of all, you can’t pick up good vibrations from them? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
Do the men actually get around, at all? If they don’t drive T-Birds, little deuce coupes or 409s, what exactly do they drive?
<strong>
I'm completely serious.
There's lots of shit you don't know about me.
I can actually picture you wearing a stetson, chaps, ... and nothing else. :eek:
Trust me, it's not a pretty sight.
<strong>But why not visit the US to find out? Who knows what you would find out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's funny you should say that, it's one of the reasons I asked the question. At some point in the future I'd like to travel further afield, and the US (and Canada) are at the top of my list. The thing is though, I'd like to see what I believe to be the real America, but I'm not sure the degree to which it exists. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>
I remember shocking people in England with the news that we'd driven up to Scotland for the weekend once. We were in Canterbury. It was only 500 miles or so, but the locals acted like we'd crawled to Japan on our hands and knees for lunch. It was funny.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You did what? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
Do you mean Canterbury as in Canterbury Kent, in the south east corner of England? Scotlands way up north, at the other end of the country infact. :eek:
<strong>I don't even want to know the stereotypes about NH. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
All you people up there look and talk like Ted Kennedy.
That's Massachusetts.
<strong>I don't even want to know the stereotypes about NH. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Live free or die.
There's lots of shit you don't know about me.
Why don't you tell us then once you're done milking Bevo.
[quote]You mean to say California girls don?t wear colourful clothes, the sunlight doesn?t play upon their hair, and worst of all, you can?t pick up good vibrations from them?<hr></blockquote>
You can get those good vibrations but you gotta hit the G spot just right.
[quote]Do the men actually get around, at all? If they don?t drive T-Birds, little deuce coupes or 409s, what exactly do they drive?<hr></blockquote>
I drive a gray colored, or grey coloured if you like, Honda Accord. It doesn't work too well as a chick magnet when I'm cruising the strip, but then I don't cruise the strip so that's OK. I spend all of my time at the drive in anyway.
[quote]It's funny you should say that, it's one of the reasons I asked the question. At some point in the future I'd like to travel further afield, and the US (and Canada) are at the top of my list. The thing is though, I'd like to see what I believe to be the real America, but I'm not sure the degree to which it exists.<hr></blockquote>
In all seriousness, you would find bits and pieces, but not like some movie. On the other hand, you might find some things that would be pleasant surprises. Or maybe not. Try Las Vegas perhaps, it might be as close to the stereotype of crass gaudy banality in all its glory as any place.
[quote]I don't even want to know the stereotypes about NH.<hr></blockquote>
I would imagine that if you asked Rod he would tell you that he doesn't have much of a conception of New Hampshire. Likewise for say Oregon, New Mexico, Oklahoma etc. Some states are higher profile than others and New Hampshire ain't one of them.
[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: ColanderOfDeath ]</p>