See my post above. I realize this isn't Apple's style, I just think it would be a huge enhancement to the system approach that Apple is taking with iOS. The last link in the chain, as it were.
I wouldn't even mention this if AppleTV was selling in anything like the numbers of the other iOS devices, but it obviously isn't.
At current sales levels, that would be a loss of $100 million a year, far too much. And remember that Apple stated that sales are up 70% YOY. If that continues, then next year sales would be 3.5 million units. Now, it would be getting serious.
I don't think dropping the price would make much of a difference.
The original comment I replied to and which noirdesir disagreed with me on is about the validity of mirroring all content from your iDevice to your AppleTV. Not simply using it as a remote control or complementary output device for gaming.
But you've been talking about apps on the aTv as well. If you talk about apps, you must talk about all apps, not just a few. And the greater discussion over apps on the aTv has always been about the entire app store, not just a handful of Tv apps.
Mirroring is just a subset of all this, and not even the most important part.
At current sales levels, that would be a loss of $100 million a year, far too much. And remember that Apple stated that sales are up 70% YOY. If that continues, then next year sales would be 3.5 million units. Now, it would be getting serious.
I don't think dropping the price would make much of a difference.
If it drove rapid adoption of the "iOS living room" I think it would be money well spent.
It's not an entirely theoretical exercise, either, since whoever figures out how to get their device widely adopted as the the link between computer, mobile and TV culture will have an enormous advantage in all three venues. Doing something radical, and soon, could give Apple that position. Continuing to treat aTV as a hobby, accepting merely acceptable sales, just means someone else might get there first before Apple has a chance to build market share for such a device.
For instance, if Google figures out a better approach to GoogleTV (simplify it, get better content deals, sell it for less, get more TV vendors onboard with built in functionality) that could rapidly take off as a must-have device/feature. Suddenly the Android ecosystem is playing nice with your Samsung LCD, allowing you to do cool things. It becomes an expectation, rather than a novelty, just as Netflix seems to have become almost required in any device that connects to your TV.
At that point, if Apple hasn't already locked up a lot of buyers with Apple TV, they're facing a real problem for their iOS devices. 100 million a year doesn't seem like a lot to spend to head such a scenario off at the pass.
For instance, if Google figures out a better approach to GoogleTV (simplify it, get better content deals, sell it for less, get more TV vendors onboard with built in functionality) that could rapidly take off as a must-have device/feature. Suddenly the Android ecosystem is playing nice with your Samsung LCD, allowing you to do cool things. It becomes an expectation, rather than a novelty, just as Netflix seems to have become almost required in any device that connects to
I think this is unlikely. First off, google burned bridges with content providers with not only this product but also their music locker. Second, the android ecosystem is so fractured that getting seamless purchasing of content is a bumpy ride with Google. Look at Netflix. They don't run on all android devices and can depend on the drm of the video. Because android is "open" there is nothing stopping google from banning bottom of the barrel set top makers which will tarnish any brand equity of the category.
As dissatisfied consumers return purchases of rival set-top-boxes in droves, Apple's market-leading Apple TV continues to achieve moderate success, selling roughly 500,000 units per quarter as the 2011 holiday shopping season approaches.
Err market leading? Microsoft and Sony both sell more Xbox's and Playstations than that. Wouldn't be surprised is BT in the UK had sold more of their internet streaming set top box's as well.
The Apple TV is awesome, even if all you ever do is use it as a music streaming receiver. Which pretty much describes what I do with it every single day. I can't get Netflix or the sports services, and I don't have a simple way to add value to my US iTunes account, but I do watch movie trailers (a great, underrated feature) and YouTube on occasion. But honestly, the AppleTV is by far my number one music playing device.
That said, for watching (torrented) TV shows and movies, I love my Patriot Box Office. Copying .mkv videos wirelessly or via USB hard drive or USB flash drive to play is a hell of a lot easier and faster than re-encoding for iTunes.
I'm sure a lot of you have already seen this from Daring Fireball, but ...
'The top 4 devices (Playstation 3, Xbox 360, PC and Wii) account for more than 85% of total Netflix traffic.'
This is why Apple needs to seriously consider an API for the ATV and indeed increasing it's power to be of the same order as the Wii. The ATV could be a hugely successful console, and it could successfully extend the ecosystem down-market without in any way cannibalizing iPhone or iPad.
I'm sure a lot of you have already seen this from Daring Fireball, but ...
'The top 4 devices (Playstation 3, Xbox 360, PC and Wii) account for more than 85% of total Netflix traffic.'
This is why Apple needs to seriously consider an API for the ATV and indeed increasing it's power to be of the same order as the Wii. The ATV could be a hugely successful console, and it could successfully extend the ecosystem down-market without in any way cannibalizing iPhone or iPad.
The PDF linked in that post is pretty interesting. If you combine the percentage of all iOS devices and AppleTV, you barely make a dent compared to the Wii, the console with the least Netflix streaming use. Roku is doing 3x better than Apple TV in Netflix usage.
Err market leading? Microsoft and Sony both sell more Xbox's and Playstations than that. Wouldn't be surprised is BT in the UK had sold more of their internet streaming set top box's as well.
I'm in the US and not the UK so not sure what a BT is but The Xbox, Playstation and the Wii are gaming consoles that also include streaming abilities. I wouldn't count the Apple TV in the same market as those devices at all. I would think the Roku, Popcorn Hour and Boxee box would be a more comparable market hence the term market leading (although I would think the author would disclose how well those devices are selling before definitively saying it's a market leader).
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
I'd say Wii is the better target anyway, given that it's the market leading console, more than twice the installed base compared to PS3 and 35% more installed units than 360. And it fits the kind of games that are offered on iOS devices anyway, mostly casual, inexpensive, simple & quick games. AppleTV can be supported very quickly by adapting games from other iOS devices. This gives devs a quick market and some time to feel it out for more in depth games.
I'd say Wii is the better target anyway, given that it's the market leading console, more than twice the installed base compared to PS3 and 35% more installed units than 360. And it fits the kind of games that are offered on iOS devices anyway, mostly casual, inexpensive, simple & quick games, so the AppleTV can be supported very quickly by adapting games from other iOS devices, give devs a quick market and some time to feel it out for more in depth games.
I definitely agree with this. There is also the Game Center to help out as well.
Just thought of something. I had originally said that I doubted there would be an SDK unless there was a hardware refresh to add additional onboard storage. I wonder if Apple could pull it off with current hardware if they incorporated icloud into the scenario. Games could be hosted by Apple and streamed to the device like the iTunes rentals.
I definitely agree with this. There is also the Game Center to help out as well.
Just thought of something. I had originally said that I doubted there would be an SDK unless there was a hardware refresh to add additional onboard storage. I wonder if Apple could pull it off with current hardware if they incorporated icloud into the scenario. Games could be hosted by Apple and streamed to the device like the iTunes rentals.
I think a lot can be done with existing hardware, the current generation has the A4 chip, offers WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity, just update the software and add controllers. The A5 chip can do a lot better with a second core and about 9x better graphics, so who knows? I'd be willing to give it a shot.
What do you mean by a "future proof 1080p capability"? 1080p capability is just that.
A human with 20/20 vision can see lines spaced 1 arc minute from each other, and 30 degrees of viewing angle provides a good immersive experience.
So a "future proof" TV would be able to display 3600 discrete lines horizontally - 7200 pixels across (one pixel for the line, one for the space between the lines). Something like a 3600 vertical by 7200 horizontal progressive scan at 75 Hz would be "future proof" until we develop bionic eyes - maybe 4000x8000 if you want to include the rare people with exceptional vision.
A human with 20/20 vision can see lines spaced 1 arc minute from each other, and 30 degrees of viewing angle provides a good immersive experience.
So a "future proof" TV would be able to display 3600 discrete lines horizontally - 7200 pixels across (one pixel for the line, one for the space between the lines). Something like a 3600 vertical by 7200 horizontal progressive scan at 75 Hz would be "future proof" until we develop bionic eyes - maybe 4000x8000 if you want to include the rare people with exceptional vision.
Super Hi-Vision! Yay!
I've always said that we'll never need anything beyond that.
I'm in the US and not the UK so not sure what a BT is but The Xbox, Playstation and the Wii are gaming consoles that also include streaming abilities. I wouldn't count the Apple TV in the same market as those devices at all. I would think the Roku, Popcorn Hour and Boxee box would be a more comparable market hence the term market leading (although I would think the author would disclose how well those devices are selling before definitively saying it's a market leader).
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
I disagree. When people buy game consoles, they expect to play games. Playstation (IMO) had one deviation from that where people did in fact buy it for a cheap Blu Ray player. An Apple TV is a streaming media box. Totally different markets unless you want to lump any and all living room devices as the same (TV's, receivers, gaming consoles, Blu Ray players, DVD players, etc.).
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
If you take someone that wants a device that does three things, you don't recommend a device that does two of them and pretend you didn't hear item #3 (or #2 or #1, depending on the user's priorities). So no, XBox doesn't magically serve the same market as the AppleTV because you choose to ignore one of a competitor's core features. Fourty percent is smaller than I'd expect, but that's still a significant portion of the use.
Comments
See my post above. I realize this isn't Apple's style, I just think it would be a huge enhancement to the system approach that Apple is taking with iOS. The last link in the chain, as it were.
I wouldn't even mention this if AppleTV was selling in anything like the numbers of the other iOS devices, but it obviously isn't.
At current sales levels, that would be a loss of $100 million a year, far too much. And remember that Apple stated that sales are up 70% YOY. If that continues, then next year sales would be 3.5 million units. Now, it would be getting serious.
I don't think dropping the price would make much of a difference.
The original comment I replied to and which noirdesir disagreed with me on is about the validity of mirroring all content from your iDevice to your AppleTV. Not simply using it as a remote control or complementary output device for gaming.
But you've been talking about apps on the aTv as well. If you talk about apps, you must talk about all apps, not just a few. And the greater discussion over apps on the aTv has always been about the entire app store, not just a handful of Tv apps.
Mirroring is just a subset of all this, and not even the most important part.
At current sales levels, that would be a loss of $100 million a year, far too much. And remember that Apple stated that sales are up 70% YOY. If that continues, then next year sales would be 3.5 million units. Now, it would be getting serious.
I don't think dropping the price would make much of a difference.
If it drove rapid adoption of the "iOS living room" I think it would be money well spent.
It's not an entirely theoretical exercise, either, since whoever figures out how to get their device widely adopted as the the link between computer, mobile and TV culture will have an enormous advantage in all three venues. Doing something radical, and soon, could give Apple that position. Continuing to treat aTV as a hobby, accepting merely acceptable sales, just means someone else might get there first before Apple has a chance to build market share for such a device.
For instance, if Google figures out a better approach to GoogleTV (simplify it, get better content deals, sell it for less, get more TV vendors onboard with built in functionality) that could rapidly take off as a must-have device/feature. Suddenly the Android ecosystem is playing nice with your Samsung LCD, allowing you to do cool things. It becomes an expectation, rather than a novelty, just as Netflix seems to have become almost required in any device that connects to your TV.
At that point, if Apple hasn't already locked up a lot of buyers with Apple TV, they're facing a real problem for their iOS devices. 100 million a year doesn't seem like a lot to spend to head such a scenario off at the pass.
For instance, if Google figures out a better approach to GoogleTV (simplify it, get better content deals, sell it for less, get more TV vendors onboard with built in functionality) that could rapidly take off as a must-have device/feature. Suddenly the Android ecosystem is playing nice with your Samsung LCD, allowing you to do cool things. It becomes an expectation, rather than a novelty, just as Netflix seems to have become almost required in any device that connects to
I think this is unlikely. First off, google burned bridges with content providers with not only this product but also their music locker. Second, the android ecosystem is so fractured that getting seamless purchasing of content is a bumpy ride with Google. Look at Netflix. They don't run on all android devices and can depend on the drm of the video. Because android is "open" there is nothing stopping google from banning bottom of the barrel set top makers which will tarnish any brand equity of the category.
As dissatisfied consumers return purchases of rival set-top-boxes in droves, Apple's market-leading Apple TV continues to achieve moderate success, selling roughly 500,000 units per quarter as the 2011 holiday shopping season approaches.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Err market leading? Microsoft and Sony both sell more Xbox's and Playstations than that. Wouldn't be surprised is BT in the UK had sold more of their internet streaming set top box's as well.
That said, for watching (torrented) TV shows and movies, I love my Patriot Box Office. Copying .mkv videos wirelessly or via USB hard drive or USB flash drive to play is a hell of a lot easier and faster than re-encoding for iTunes.
'The top 4 devices (Playstation 3, Xbox 360, PC and Wii) account for more than 85% of total Netflix traffic.'
This is why Apple needs to seriously consider an API for the ATV and indeed increasing it's power to be of the same order as the Wii. The ATV could be a hugely successful console, and it could successfully extend the ecosystem down-market without in any way cannibalizing iPhone or iPad.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/201...tflix-sandvine
I'm sure a lot of you have already seen this from Daring Fireball, but ...
'The top 4 devices (Playstation 3, Xbox 360, PC and Wii) account for more than 85% of total Netflix traffic.'
This is why Apple needs to seriously consider an API for the ATV and indeed increasing it's power to be of the same order as the Wii. The ATV could be a hugely successful console, and it could successfully extend the ecosystem down-market without in any way cannibalizing iPhone or iPad.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/201...tflix-sandvine
The PDF linked in that post is pretty interesting. If you combine the percentage of all iOS devices and AppleTV, you barely make a dent compared to the Wii, the console with the least Netflix streaming use. Roku is doing 3x better than Apple TV in Netflix usage.
Err market leading? Microsoft and Sony both sell more Xbox's and Playstations than that. Wouldn't be surprised is BT in the UK had sold more of their internet streaming set top box's as well.
I'm in the US and not the UK so not sure what a BT is but The Xbox, Playstation and the Wii are gaming consoles that also include streaming abilities. I wouldn't count the Apple TV in the same market as those devices at all. I would think the Roku, Popcorn Hour and Boxee box would be a more comparable market hence the term market leading (although I would think the author would disclose how well those devices are selling before definitively saying it's a market leader).
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
I'd say Wii is the better target anyway, given that it's the market leading console, more than twice the installed base compared to PS3 and 35% more installed units than 360. And it fits the kind of games that are offered on iOS devices anyway, mostly casual, inexpensive, simple & quick games. AppleTV can be supported very quickly by adapting games from other iOS devices. This gives devs a quick market and some time to feel it out for more in depth games.
I'd say Wii is the better target anyway, given that it's the market leading console, more than twice the installed base compared to PS3 and 35% more installed units than 360. And it fits the kind of games that are offered on iOS devices anyway, mostly casual, inexpensive, simple & quick games, so the AppleTV can be supported very quickly by adapting games from other iOS devices, give devs a quick market and some time to feel it out for more in depth games.
I definitely agree with this. There is also the Game Center to help out as well.
Just thought of something. I had originally said that I doubted there would be an SDK unless there was a hardware refresh to add additional onboard storage. I wonder if Apple could pull it off with current hardware if they incorporated icloud into the scenario. Games could be hosted by Apple and streamed to the device like the iTunes rentals.
I definitely agree with this. There is also the Game Center to help out as well.
Just thought of something. I had originally said that I doubted there would be an SDK unless there was a hardware refresh to add additional onboard storage. I wonder if Apple could pull it off with current hardware if they incorporated icloud into the scenario. Games could be hosted by Apple and streamed to the device like the iTunes rentals.
I think a lot can be done with existing hardware, the current generation has the A4 chip, offers WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity, just update the software and add controllers. The A5 chip can do a lot better with a second core and about 9x better graphics, so who knows? I'd be willing to give it a shot.
What do you mean by a "future proof 1080p capability"? 1080p capability is just that.
A human with 20/20 vision can see lines spaced 1 arc minute from each other, and 30 degrees of viewing angle provides a good immersive experience.
So a "future proof" TV would be able to display 3600 discrete lines horizontally - 7200 pixels across (one pixel for the line, one for the space between the lines). Something like a 3600 vertical by 7200 horizontal progressive scan at 75 Hz would be "future proof" until we develop bionic eyes - maybe 4000x8000 if you want to include the rare people with exceptional vision.
A human with 20/20 vision can see lines spaced 1 arc minute from each other, and 30 degrees of viewing angle provides a good immersive experience.
So a "future proof" TV would be able to display 3600 discrete lines horizontally - 7200 pixels across (one pixel for the line, one for the space between the lines). Something like a 3600 vertical by 7200 horizontal progressive scan at 75 Hz would be "future proof" until we develop bionic eyes - maybe 4000x8000 if you want to include the rare people with exceptional vision.
Super Hi-Vision! Yay!
I've always said that we'll never need anything beyond that.
I'm in the US and not the UK so not sure what a BT is but The Xbox, Playstation and the Wii are gaming consoles that also include streaming abilities. I wouldn't count the Apple TV in the same market as those devices at all. I would think the Roku, Popcorn Hour and Boxee box would be a more comparable market hence the term market leading (although I would think the author would disclose how well those devices are selling before definitively saying it's a market leader).
Even if Apple used the device to go into gaming, it would be more casual games like the Wii and nothing that would compete with either the Xbox or the Playstation.
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
I disagree. When people buy game consoles, they expect to play games. Playstation (IMO) had one deviation from that where people did in fact buy it for a cheap Blu Ray player. An Apple TV is a streaming media box. Totally different markets unless you want to lump any and all living room devices as the same (TV's, receivers, gaming consoles, Blu Ray players, DVD players, etc.).
They are consoles but the lines are bluring between set top boxs, games consoles etc. Microsofts stats are that only 40% of Xbox use is to play games now. ATV doesn't appear to do much that Xbox doesn't so id say they are in the same market.
If you take someone that wants a device that does three things, you don't recommend a device that does two of them and pretend you didn't hear item #3 (or #2 or #1, depending on the user's priorities). So no, XBox doesn't magically serve the same market as the AppleTV because you choose to ignore one of a competitor's core features. Fourty percent is smaller than I'd expect, but that's still a significant portion of the use.
Super Hi-Vision! Yay!
I've always said that we'll never need anything beyond that.
Until we need Super Duper Hi Retina-Vision(tm).
Actually, I've always wanted a retina-resolution display that covers my bedroom ceiling.
Until we need Super Duper Hi Retina-Vision(tm).
But he said (and I agreed) that Super Hi-Vision IS, for all intents and purposes, the maximum resolution needed to be a retina display.
But he said (and I agreed) that Super Hi-Vision IS, for all intents and purposes, the maximum resolution needed to be a retina display.
Until you turn your head.