New Mac Pro

1679111217

Comments

  • Reply 161 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTac View Post


    No. We want OSX on an Apple computer that meets our needs. That is not a PC.



    And I respect your desire for a computer you can plug any crap you want into and have it work. But that isn't Apple's plan, nor ecosystem.



    And it never will be. So people need to cool it.



    Now when we get a smaller, Thunderbolt Mac Pro with one double-wide PCIe slot, two HDD trays, and no ODDs into which you can plug any accessory, THERE'S your dream.
  • Reply 162 of 331
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    And I respect your desire for a computer you can plug any crap you want into and have it work. But that isn't Apple's plan, nor ecosystem.



    And it never will be. So people need to cool it.



    I'm impressed with your detailed knowledge of Apple's business plans.
  • Reply 163 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    I'm impressed with your detailed knowledge of Apple's business plans.



    As zeph just said, if your desires had any place in Apple's plan, they would have done something long ago.



    They did, in fact, with the G4 line. There's probably a reason they don't anymore.
  • Reply 164 of 331
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeph View Post


    It's kind of amusing to see the pundits here claim Apple is missing out on a great opportunity by not making an xMac when the company just sold 4.63 million computers and 12 million iPads. Laptops account for the vast majority of their computer sales, too.



    Pointing out that "Laptops account for the vast majority of their computer sales," suggests that Apple is weaker in the desktop market. Yet if they are making so much money, they don't need to sell the most popular type of desktop computer. A couple niche markets is probably good enough, tiny computers and all-in-ones.
  • Reply 165 of 331
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,615moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTac View Post


    This is the only Apple product I would be crazy enough to camp outside an Apple store to buy.



    The queue would probably be small enough that you wouldn't have to camp out. Every manufacturer sees around a 70/30 split between laptops and desktops now and it's not swinging the other way any time soon.



    Apple has already made an affordable, expandable headless Mac. For $1000, you can get a quad i7 Mini that matches the entry Mac Pro, you can get 8GB RAM for it for $50. You can get a 128GB SSD boot drive for $225 that will run rings round a RAID0 HDD setup and stick a 1TB drive in on top.



    If you need more storage, get a Thunderbolt RAID or GoFlex (up to 3TB) or wait until the next update for USB 3. The only area lacking is the GPU. It will take a few years for Intel's IGP to reach current high-end performance but it will soon reach a performance bar that satisfies most people. Sandy Bridge is pretty much there but Ivy Bridge definitely will be as it has OpenCL support.



    The middle Mini should jump to the new Radeon 7000 series 28nm GPUs next year (due Q1). NVidia expects to more than double performance every year and I'd expect AMD can too. This will put the GPU in the middle Mini in the region of the 5770 in the current Mac Pro.



    If people are happy buying used Mac Pros, buying a Mini will shortly be an equivalent option except one that draws a fraction of the power, takes up 1/25th of the space and costs under $1000 and can be resold every year for the latest model very easily.
  • Reply 166 of 331
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    The queue would probably be small enough that you wouldn't have to camp out. Every manufacturer sees around a 70/30 split between laptops and desktops now and it's not swinging the other way any time soon.



    First off when has anybody camped out for an Apple desktop computer launch. I can't remember that much excitement recently over a desktop and even the laptops are sold at a reasonable pace.



    The problem with that split, which I don't believe is actually 70/30, is that Apple is getting very little of that 30% market if any. There is huge potential in that 30% of the PC market, even if Apple only managed to get 10% of that it would still outstrip current Mac sales. Not that I'd expect Apple to get a massive slice of the desktop market right away, rather if they sell a couple of million they would be greatly increasing share holder value. A couple of million should be easy in a properly configured XMac, remember the market is a share of something they don't have a part of at all now.

    Quote:

    Apple has already made an affordable, expandable headless Mac. For $1000, you can get a quad i7 Mini that matches the entry Mac Pro, you can get 8GB RAM for it for $50. You can get a 128GB SSD boot drive for $225 that will run rings round a RAID0 HDD setup and stick a 1TB drive in on top.



    You know I really like what Apple did to the current Mini, it is a very well equipped computer. It is however a significantly limited computer simply because Apple can't seem to wrap its head around peoples wants and desires as it pertains to GPU's. It is also useless from the standpoint of expansion potential.

    Quote:

    If you need more storage, get a Thunderbolt RAID or GoFlex (up to 3TB) or wait until the next update for USB 3. The only area lacking is the GPU. It will take a few years for Intel's IGP to reach current high-end performance but it will soon reach a performance bar that satisfies most people. Sandy Bridge is pretty much there but Ivy Bridge definitely will be as it has OpenCL support.



    I'm as happy as anybody when it comes to the continuous improvements in integrated GPU's. However that doesn't dismiss the idea that external GPU chips still offer a significant advantage and will for sometime. The trend is clear though, in a few years and external GPU might actually be a step backwards.



    However the need for an XMac, an expandable computer has little to do with the GPU. While it would be nice to support a GPU in a slot the need for expansion goes beyond that.

    Quote:

    The middle Mini should jump to the new Radeon 7000 series 28nm GPUs next year (due Q1). NVidia expects to more than double performance every year and I'd expect AMD can too. This will put the GPU in the middle Mini in the region of the 5770 in the current Mac Pro.



    Yep and you are still stuck with a Mini that has only two drive bays and no slots. By the way we are no where near as lucky when it comes to secondary storage growth.

    Quote:

    If people are happy buying used Mac Pros, buying a Mini will shortly be an equivalent option except one that draws a fraction of the power, takes up 1/25th of the space and costs under $1000 and can be resold every year for the latest model very easily.



    And would still be nowhere near what a reasonably priced XMac would be. An XMac would allow for a bit more CPU wattage, thus performance with an even more powerful GPU at any one time. I fully agree that the Mini will get more powerful into the future, the problem is it will significantly lag what is possible at any given time. Note too, I don't see an XMac as Apples most powerful PC, rather I like to think of it as a mid range machine.



    You see this discussion isn't about what might be possible in the future; it is about being able to buy reasonable performance, for the state of the art, at any one point in time. I can be pretty certain the computers of the future will be better, history is clear here. The problem is what is available at anyone time when a person goes out to buy an Apple desktop. To put it plainly the line up sucks as their is a big whole between the low end and the high end.
  • Reply 167 of 331
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    And I respect your desire for a computer you can plug any crap you want into and have it work. But that isn't Apple's plan, nor ecosystem.



    Your characterization that people plug crap into their desktops really reveals a tremendous ignorance on your part. People use slots on PC's to solve real problems. Apple can ignore the need but I see it as Apple giving up a great deal of potential in the way of sales.

    Quote:

    And it never will be. So people need to cool it.



    Your attitude sucks, we are the consumers as such we have the right to ask for anything reasonable. Just as Apple has the right to say no.

    Quote:

    Now when we get a smaller, Thunderbolt Mac Pro with one double-wide PCIe slot, two HDD trays, and no ODDs into which you can plug any accessory, THERE'S your dream.



    Actually two HDD bays won't do it either unless Apple takes a different approach to SSD storage. Ideally I'd like to see a Mac with several slots where some of those slots might be dedicated to solid state storage. The HDD form factor for storage should have died some time ago with the advent of solid state. it is actually sad that Apple hasn't been more aggressive setting standards here.



    Oh by the way the dream isn't to replace the Mac Pro, rather it is to deliver a economical but expandable Mac. I'm not sure why people have so much trouble grasping what is needed and wanted here.
  • Reply 168 of 331
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    Pointing out that "Laptops account for the vast majority of their computer sales," suggests that Apple is weaker in the desktop market.



    No. It suggests that the desktop market has been saturated and consumers are moving to mobile devices en masse, be it laptops, netbooks, tablets or handhelds. This is a market trend and not specific to Apple.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    Yet if they are making so much money, they don't need to sell the most popular type of desktop computer. A couple niche markets is probably good enough, tiny computers and all-in-ones.



    Not sure what your point is, but if you mean the MacPro, I'd imagine Apple's accounting department already called for discontinuation of the MacPro eons ago. But there is a huuuuge markup on it, and it serves as Apple's halo machine. As long as enough people shell out $2500 for a 2.8 quad or $3700 for a hex there is no reason to EOL it.



    But I don't think they'll make it cheaper. If the sales drop, it is over.
  • Reply 169 of 331
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTac View Post


    Apple is making money hand over fist. Fine. But the fact remains that this Mac user of 18 years isn't buying anything new from Apple because what I want isn't being made. So Apple in its infinite wisdom is successful but it is also very close to losing a long time buyer and user of Apple computers.



    Can I make Apple build what I want? No. But I think they should be wondering what would happen if more of the long term repeat buyers of Apple products start feeling the same way I do.



    This is a common complaint from longterm Mac users. I'm sure Apple knows, but under Steve Jobs the company has always been forward thinking. They drop the old for the new without regard for who (or what) may be left behind.



    The xMac exists. It is the MacPro. But it's just $1000 more than the xMac enthusiasts are willing to part with.

    Could or should the MacPro be cheaper? Hell yeah. The markup on the single-CPU models is insane. They could sell the $2899 model for $1999 and still make a very tidy profit.



    But they don't. So be it.
  • Reply 170 of 331
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    The queue would probably be small enough that you wouldn't have to camp out. Every manufacturer sees around a 70/30 split between laptops and desktops now and it's not swinging the other way any time soon.



    Apple has already made an affordable, expandable headless Mac. For $1000, you can get a quad i7 Mini that matches the entry Mac Pro, you can get 8GB RAM for it for $50. You can get a 128GB SSD boot drive for $225 that will run rings round a RAID0 HDD setup and stick a 1TB drive in on top.



    If you need more storage, get a Thunderbolt RAID or GoFlex (up to 3TB) or wait until the next update for USB 3. The only area lacking is the GPU. It will take a few years for Intel's IGP to reach current high-end performance but it will soon reach a performance bar that satisfies most people. Sandy Bridge is pretty much there but Ivy Bridge definitely will be as it has OpenCL support.



    The middle Mini should jump to the new Radeon 7000 series 28nm GPUs next year (due Q1). NVidia expects to more than double performance every year and I'd expect AMD can too. This will put the GPU in the middle Mini in the region of the 5770 in the current Mac Pro.



    If people are happy buying used Mac Pros, buying a Mini will shortly be an equivalent option except one that draws a fraction of the power, takes up 1/25th of the space and costs under $1000 and can be resold every year for the latest model very easily.





    If they built up/out a bit more from this, I might buy one. The top model is marketed as the mini server right now. It's using a weaker quad core processor than is available on the macbook pros. If it's benchmarking well against the mac pro, that's because Apple has allowed it to sit way too long. Considering price drops they could have easily bumped the cpu and graphics card just to keep the machine up to date. Right now it's absolutely asinine what the six core costs. They charge $1200 to upgrade a $2500 machine to a $600 processor. It could have easily been bumped at least six months ago (there are a couple other processor options that retail around $300 as well that could have been used).



    Ok now back to the mini, is it running cooler these days? They used to get way too hot. One thunderbolt port isn't enough. Higher bandwidth devices including newer displays hitting the market can pretty much saturate it as a single device. Newer panel generations keep going up in resolution and displayport 1.1 is still ahead of thunderbolt in bandwidth. The point being daisy chaining is only practical for low bandwidth peripherals. It doesn't come with a keyboard or mouse so tack those onto the price whenever they require replacement. It's using laptop parts so of course the power draw is lower but they stick it into the smallest package possible rather than allowing the parts to run cool. Take a look at the Apple site. There are plenty of complaints of devices dying due to long term heat issues. Apple always pushes it as close as possible in this regard. The imac is at closer in overall hardware quality. You think it's because mac pros are expensive to build? Those cases aren't difficult to produce at all. Setting up the macbook pros with machined unibody designs was a far greater engineering feat.



    If they expanded the mini they could have something comparable to a headless imac. If it had at least a couple thunderbolt ports I'd probably buy one. As a final correction, if you buy your ram upgrade from Apple it's $200. If it goes the direction of the air soon diy will no longer be an option. If you're running applications where 8GB is still a bottleneck (I've got applications that suggest 6-8GB as minimum recommended) then upgrading that thing to 16 GB becomes a $900 investment. The mini is quite limited really. It's engineered to be small.
  • Reply 171 of 331
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    The problem with that split, which I don't believe is actually 70/30, is that Apple is getting very little of that 30% market if any. There is huge potential in that 30% of the PC market, even if Apple only managed to get 10% of that it would still outstrip current Mac sales.







    Huge potential? Is that why HP is stepping out of the PC market? The desktop market is saturated and shrinking. Fact. Even notebook sales are stalling. Apple is one of very few manufacturers that has seen its computer sales increase over the last year. Just about all other vendors have reported declining sales.



    SJ wasn't BS'ing when he announced the post-PC era. It is happening.



    BTW, Apple has a larger slice of $1000+ computer market than any other brand. So I don't buy that "untapped market potential".
  • Reply 172 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Your characterization that people plug crap into their desktops really reveals a tremendous ignorance on your part. People use slots on PC's to solve real problems. Apple can ignore the need but I see it as Apple giving up a great deal of potential in the way of sales.



    No, no! Sorry, I used 'crap' in an 'anything' sense, not as a 'worthless junk' sense. Again, sorry about that.



    Quote:

    Oh by the way the dream isn't to replace the Mac Pro, rather it is to deliver a economical but expandable Mac. I'm not sure why people have so much trouble grasping what is needed and wanted here.



    Because that's not Apple's bag and they apparently have a reason for that. Probably fits into their whole "it just works"/"beautiful, compatible ecosystem" schtick.
  • Reply 173 of 331
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeph View Post




    I bet that if the xMac was a viable business proposal, Apple would already have one out. Fact is, they know the market better than most and their track record/sales figures prove it.

    Face it, they know better.




    What you and others are saying is that Apple knows best. However, Apple is not the only company doing market research to find out what customers want. All PC makers do this, and make what customers desire most. So why is it that I've never seen a Windows all-in-one or mini PC? If these are for sale, almost nobody is buying them. We should be seeing lots of them in the Window world if that is what customers really wanted most.



    So, let's get down to the real reason there is no xMac. It would hurt the sales of iMacs and Mac Minis a great deal, and it is these two desktop Macs that help Apple to be unique.
  • Reply 174 of 331
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    What you and others are saying is that Apple knows best. However, Apple is not the only company doing market research to find out what customers want. All PC makers do this, and make what customers desire most. So why is it that I've never seen a Windows all-in-one or mini PC? If these are for sale, almost nobody is buying them. We should be seeing lots of them in the Window world if that is what customers really wanted most.



    So, let's get down to the real reason there is no xMac. It would hurt the sales of iMacs and Mac Minis a great deal, and it is these two desktop Macs that help Apple to be unique.



    I know Gateway tried it. Dell also tried it. Neither was very successful. I'd mind the imac and mac mini less if they lacked some of their current flaws. In the past IO capacity was a major drawback for me. By next year the 27" imac might be ok in that regard for my purposes (remember it used to be just firewire and usb2). The graphics are still mobile graphics, but that has always been a weak point for Apple. The biggest thing I'd still worry about would be the heat issues. Ever seen an imac screen from someone who pushes the machine hard? They get those magenta discolorations. Anyway every Apple laptop I've ever owned has still had heat problems when running near or at max capacity in an air conditioned room on a flat surface no matter what I do (I disable anything too cpu intensive and animations and stuff are turned off as much as possible). The point being if the imac was truly suitable for heavy use, I'd probably own one. The mac pro in its current state is just a neglected machine.
  • Reply 175 of 331
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snoopy View Post


    What you and others are saying is that Apple knows best. However, Apple is not the only company doing market research to find out what customers want. All PC makers do this, and make what customers desire most. So why is it that I've never seen a Windows all-in-one or mini PC? If these are for sale, almost nobody is buying them. We should be seeing lots of them in the Window world if that is what customers really wanted most.



    So, let's get down to the real reason there is no xMac. It would hurt the sales of iMacs and Mac Minis a great deal, and it is these two desktop Macs that help Apple to be unique.



    Here's a different explanation. If you look at the minis and all-in-ones offered by other manufacturers, it's all a bunch of cheap crap; for the most part anyway. They do not offer Apple's unique design and optimized integration of hardware and software. That is why it works for Apple and not for vendors who just slap a bunch of components together and try to cash in on the latest trends.



    And yes, Apple knows better than most. As I said before, SJ announced the post-PC era and it's already happening. HP is pulling out of the PC market. The desktop market is saturated and shrinking. Why on Earth should Apple invest in that precious xMac?



    Market research has repeatedly demonstrated that 90+% of the domestic computers are never opened or upgraded. The vast majority just buys a new machine when the old one gets tardy or crappy. Gaming enthusiasts or IT professionals get inside their machines, but that is an insignificant portion of the market.



    I think the desktop may stick around in enterprise longer, they make sense for large companies with in-house IT staff. Other than that, it will be server farms and mobile devices. As an audio professional I can't see me ditching the workstation for the foreseeable future, but I'd be happy to work on the iPadPro when it has the necessary horsepower and once the devs redesign/optimize their apps for multi-touch.



    The world is changing. Change along with it or be a sourpuss.
  • Reply 176 of 331
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeph View Post


    As an audio professional I can't see me ditching the workstation for the foreseeable future, but I'd be happy to work on the iPadPro when it has the necessary horsepower and once the devs redesign/optimize their apps for multi-touch.



    The world is changing. Change along with it or be a sourpuss.



    That brings up something interesting. I'm wondering how some of these devices will evolve. The ipad is great but even if it had the power, it wouldn't necessarily be ideal for work that spans a significant number of hours just from an ergonomic standpoint. Today there are people who plug peripherals into their laptops when they are at their desks, but I'm wondering how it will be integrated a decade or more from today. I did mention that building out the mini could make it a more compelling option without drastically increasing its cost. Right now it still has too many compromises.
  • Reply 177 of 331
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Because that's not Apple's bag and they apparently have a reason for that. Probably fits into their whole "it just works"/"beautiful, compatible ecosystem" schtick.



    And that is the exact reason people like me do not want to buy a mini and have a bunch of external devices plugged into it. We want internal expansion to keep that good looking Mac looking good instead of being surrounded with non matching external devices.



    Now I will hear a repeat of "buy a Mac Pro then". I don't need that much horsepower. It is also anything but mid size and $2499 is an awful steep price in order to get expansion.



    Thus the repeated desire for a mid range mid size desktop Mac that does not have a built in monitor.
  • Reply 178 of 331
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTac View Post


    And that is the exact reason people like me do not want to buy a mini and have a bunch of external devices plugged into it. We want internal expansion to keep that good looking Mac looking good instead of being surrounded with non matching external devices.



    Now I will hear a repeat of "buy a Mac Pro then". I don't need that much horsepower. It is also anything but mid size and $2499 is an awful steep price in order to get expansion.



    Thus the repeated desire for a mid range mid size desktop Mac that does not have a built in monitor.



    $2499 is a lot for what you're getting. I know Marvin used the example of the mini pulling ahead today. When the 2009 model came out, many people posted how their "hackintoshes" built for a fraction of the cost ran better than the mac pro. It's been a slow withdrawal Faster thunderbolt + a minimum of two ports on a given machine would probably be enough to do it for me. My storage needs are too great for four bays already anyway.
  • Reply 179 of 331
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeph View Post






    Huge potential? Is that why HP is stepping out of the PC market?



    I think we all know HP was/is leaving the market for other reasons. In any event you mis the point if you look at all of the desktops that all off the combined PC makers sell the number is still massive, Apple could take a percentage of that and increase sales year on year for some time.

    Quote:

    The desktop market is saturated and shrinking. Fact.



    Nope the Windows PC market is saturated, fact is people are leaving Windows for another platform.

    Quote:

    Even notebook sales are stalling.



    Yes sales are tough for everybody but Apple right now. Part of that is the economy but even more is the result of a desire for an alternative to Windows. Notebook/laptop sales will pick up as the economy improves but I expect Apple and alternative OSes to get an even greater percentage of sales in the future. I see it as a sign that the industry has matured and the hammer lock that Windows had is being lifted.

    Quote:

    Apple is one of very few manufacturers that has seen its computer sales increase over the last year. Just about all other vendors have reported declining sales.



    Exactly! Now what does that tell you? In my mind it indicates that people are abandoning Windows more than anything.

    Quote:

    SJ wasn't BS'ing when he announced the post-PC era. It is happening.



    Sure it is happening but that does not mean that PC sales end. Not at all, in some cases post PC devices will drive sales of desktop equipment as the hub for these devices.



    If you look at history here there have been all sorts of eras when it comes to consumer products. The muscle car era did not end car sales for example. The VCR era didn't end movie sales as another example. The silver film era didn't end with people no longer taking pictures.

    Quote:

    BTW, Apple has a larger slice of $1000+ computer market than any other brand. So I don't buy that "untapped market potential".



    Well yeah for laptops that would be the case. Now ask yourself this, how much of the desktop market do they own?
  • Reply 180 of 331
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zeph View Post


    Here's a different explanation. If you look at the minis and all-in-ones offered by other manufacturers, it's all a bunch of cheap crap; for the most part anyway. They do not offer Apple's unique design and optimized integration of hardware and software. That is why it works for Apple and not for vendors who just slap a bunch of components together and try to cash in on the latest trends.



    There is some evidence that Apples approach doesn't work all that well either. Rumors of marginal Mini sales continue to surface and iMac sales seem to be the result of people not having a choice.



    Think about it a bit, most of Apples laptops are a better deal than the Mini.

    Quote:

    And yes, Apple knows better than most. As I said before, SJ announced the post-PC era and it's already happening. HP is pulling out of the PC market. The desktop market is saturated and shrinking. Why on Earth should Apple invest in that precious xMac?



    Continued sales growth? The desktop market isn't saturated at all, people have been moving to Macs. The Windows market is what is dying. By offering a decent desktop Mac Apple lowers the barrier to moving to the Mac Platform.

    Quote:

    Market research has repeatedly demonstrated that 90+% of the domestic computers are never opened or upgraded. The vast majority just buys a new machine when the old one gets tardy or crappy. Gaming enthusiasts or IT professionals get inside their machines, but that is an insignificant portion of the market.



    That is garbage. Talk to anybody running a PC repair business and you will find that those not comfortable inside the case simply bring the computer into the shop. For most people a PC of any type is a major investment, as such they tend to want to keep it viable for as long as possible.

    Quote:

    I think the desktop may stick around in enterprise longer, they make sense for large companies with in-house IT staff. Other than that, it will be server farms and mobile devices.



    As an owner of a couple of mobile devices and a Mac I think you are engaging in wishful thinking. Most mobile devices would have to be radically different to completely eliminate the need for a Mac.

    Quote:

    As an audio professional I can't see me ditching the workstation for the foreseeable future, but I'd be happy to work on the iPadPro when it has the necessary horsepower and once the devs redesign/optimize their apps for multi-touch.



    No matter how far into the future you go such an iPad Pro would still have to work with some sort of bulk storage device. Besides the desire for a better video solution one of the things that drives the desire for an XMac is the need for more bulk storage. For most today that means HDDs but it could just as well mean some sort of solid state solution in the future.



    And no external storage boxes, especially over Thunderbolt, are not a solution.

    Quote:

    The world is changing. Change along with it or be a sourpuss.



    Exactly, which is why there is an even more pressing need for Apple to come out with an XMac.
Sign In or Register to comment.