WTF?!?! PC notebooks are trying to compete with Apple price points (and can't)?! At what point did the tables turn and where the fuck have I been?!!
This is nothing new. PC manufacturers have NEVER been able to successfully compete with Apple where Apple is - the whole "7" tablet is better" debacle is the most recent example of this.
What people confuse is, Apple does not try to be all things to all people. They have specific and narrow product lines.
PC manufacturers are all over the place. They produce everything from Netbooks to bargain basement PC's that practically fall apart when you touch them up through ultra-high end workstations.
So people will take a bargain basement PC and try to compare it to a Mac Pro and then proclaim "Apple is overly expensive!" - which, if the Mac Pro is the only thing that meets their needs might be effectively true - but what is more accurate is Apple is overpriced for that person since they don't offer the same specs and quality machine they need, not that when similarly match they are overpriced.
This has been born out over and over again - when compared feature for feature, Apple is always right there or often beating their competitors. Sure, you might be willing to accept a thicker, heaver notebook with worse battery life - Apple just doesn't offer those.
We are witnessing the real squeeze right now - as what were previously luxury categories trend downward naturally, Apple is going to be there dominating and sucking the proverbial oxygen out of the room. This is happening with the iPad, and now it's happening with the MacBook Air. It's been that way with most of the MacBook Pro line, but people have been so used to accepting less that it doesn't stand out from the crowd of normal Notebooks. But like the iPad, the MacBook Air is so unique and essentially a new category, the differences between them and all other offerings is very obvious.
I'm trying to understand why such a large gap exists when they could make $20 off a $399 regular netbook, but can't accept similar margins on high-end netbook just to undercut Apple. Is there something else that's significantly different?
If you don't see the difference between a bargain basement netbook that has ultra-cheap components and severe compromises in CPU, Video, RAM and storage as well as low resolution displays and a MacBook Air... well, I doubt there is much we could do to enlighten you.
You are talking two totally different classes of machines with radically different design philosophies and performance characteristics.
There's a reason, especially in the face of the iPad, Netbook sales have tanked and hit manufacturers like Acer that were depending on high volumes of their sales really hard.
If Intel wants to create an Ultrabook with similar dimensions and specifications to Apple notebooks and can't do it with a similar price, it has a choice. It can choose to create notebooks with Linux. It isn't free for manufacturers but it is way cheaper than Windows. Doing this would make the Ultrabooks price competitive with the Apple notebooks.
Typically to sell a product you have to make a product that people want
If that sounds harsh, I can't help it - it's the truth. There is still zero demand from end users in general for Linux. That's a fact and no amount of pushing is going to change that. When Linux distributions are easy to use and support the applications that people want to use then they will take off.
And as for Applications, if a Linux pusher really wanted to solve the application problem they need to fashion a Linux distro with the equivalent of the Lion launch pad and tie into one of the Android stores for Honeycomb/tablets. Not ideal but better than the goose egg that is the average persons view of useful software on Linux.
Yes, I realize there are tons of people happily using Linux - you just need to acknowledge that they are about as far from the mainstream as you can get and therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Indeed, even Mac OSX and Windows are way more complicated and involved than the vast majority of "normal" people want. People want tools to accomplish things, not technology or computers - this concept is VERY hard for geeks or tech oriented people to understand because for us using technology is fun in and of itself.
We are a minority.
You need to keep reminding yourself of that.
It's why, especially as Apple polishes iOS and with iCloud de-emphasizes the importance of the PC in the overall experience, that iOS usage is going to take off again. iOS represents what most people want - easy to use solutions in a user-friendly and non-technical format. Tools. Appliances. Whatever you want to call them - they are friendly, immediately useful and don't require people to conform to them in order for useful work to be done.
And no, Apple isn't worried about cannibalizing the Mac. Because they fully intend to no longer be dependent on the Mac for their revenue - they are moving onto the next big thing: iOS. They are skating to where the puck will be!
And no, it also doesn't mean Apple is going to abandon Mac OSX either. It's still a vital part of their overall scheme. But unlike Microsoft, Apple is secure enough to de-emphasize one product line when another is poised to eclipse it. Just look at the confused message from Microsoft when it comes to Tablets. They are paralyzed and unable to act boldly. They are sticking with the same strategy (windows everywhere!) that has worked so well for them for the past 10 years - yeah, that's brilliant!
Note the patent was filled in 1992 and refers to floppy disc drives in the full description. We've come a long way.
Jobs was at it with the Apple III - the power supply was integrated into the case for thermal reasons. There was no fan! Unfortunately the power supply technology at the time wasn't good enough and they often overheated. Passive cooling just wasn't good enough!
One of many design failures of the Apple III and amazingly similar to this.
Fiberglass is used in many applications in the boating industry. Durability has already been proven.
Durability for a hull and durability or other characteristics for notebooks are another thing entirely.
If it's so ideal, why is it their "fall back" solution?!?
Quote:
Heat dissipation is a none issue as notebooks these days dont produce as much heat as they used to.
Really? My work windows computer has a plastic case and the fan on it is constantly going. My Aluminum MacBook Pro gets warm, but the fan only kicks in when I'm doing really CPU intensive stuff. Heat dissipation is huge! Not only is fan noise annoying, fans dramatically lower battery life.
Please don't try to make this as an "advantage" - it's no more an advantage than 7" screens for iPad competitors were.
when i read you comment i, at first didn't believe it, but then i re-read the second post in this thread. you're absolutely correctly; the thread went down hill in record time indeed. what amazes me is the article didn't reference Sony, Samsung or Google. one can only conclude that some Apple fanatics are defensive by nature and, in some queer sense of rationalisation, see it fit to still hold grudges against non-Apple manufacturers in the home computing market.
anyways, in a world where supply chains were not constrained (due to reasons mentioned in the original post) i wonder how well Apple would be doing in the market.
anyways, in a world where supply chains were not constrained (due to reasons mentioned in the original post) i wonder how well Apple would be doing in the market.
lol - Apple's success isn't because their competitors supply chains are constrained....
I'm not sure why these reports indicate that Intel is pushing the ultra book standard in competition to Apple - since Apple is probably one of Intel's largest customers!
Doesn't make sense that Intel would be pushing it - I can understand if multiple Windows PC manufacturers are, but is Intel really pushing?
I mean this article finally mentioned "Intel and its partner PC makers" but it still seems silly to me. Is there any reference where Intel itself is actively involved?
Also, one of the previous AI articles link to an Engadget article showing a presentation slide and press release by Intel
I think Intel has made system reference designs in the past, I don't see where to get that kind of information, it might still be NDA or exclusive with large computer makers. It better be a lot farther along than alleged chassis supply issues to hit the Holiday 2011 goal shown in the first Intel page. I've not worked on a project of anywhere nearly the complexity of a computer, but I expect that redesigning the shell & chassis in August for mass production in October/November for sale by Black Friday is unrealistic at best. Even simple looking molds and dies can have a 12 week lead time.
They can take the most common components, like memory, and make th scarce. They didn't have that sort of influence 10 years ago.
Erm no, they can't. They're the biggest single buyer of NAND but still only 30% of the market, they aren't making it scarce in any meaningful way. They have a good lock on the large multi-touch screen systems required for tablets, but that's because until recently nobody was using them.
what amazes me is the article didn't reference Sony, Samsung or Google.
Why would an article about ultrabooks reference google? Why would it even reference Samsung? Only one of those three that makes sense is Sony since the Vaio range has included some premium ultraportables, though how comparable they are to the Air in terms of power or build quality is questionable.
Erm no, they can't. They're the biggest single buyer of NAND but still only 30% of the market, they aren't making it scarce in any meaningful way. They have a good lock on the large multi-touch screen systems required for tablets, but that's because until recently nobody was using them.
Hmm. I know in 2009, when Samsung and Micron were telling their module customers their supply of NAND was going to be 1/2 (or in microns case 0) for certain months, it was widely attributed to Apple locking up supply. Maybe you know better.
Hmm. I know in 2009, when Samsung and Micron were telling their module customers their supply of NAND was going to be 1/2 (or in microns case 0) for certain months, it was widely attributed to Apple locking up supply. Maybe you know better.
That's just two of half a dozen or so major NAND chip suppliers, how about the others?
... and I'm extremely happy about that. Odd, though, that we don't have some pc blowhards entering this thread explaining how much better the $1300 pc is compared to the "crappy" $999 MBA. I guess those days are gone... <tear in eye>
Suuure... because we all know MBA is best for everything one can demand from one's computer
Suuure... because we all know MBA is best for everything one can demand from one's computer
I'm pretty sure the MBA can do anything an Ultrabook can do, which is the subject of this article. To assume it means any $1300 PC would likely be taking the comment out of context.
Comments
WTF?!?! PC notebooks are trying to compete with Apple price points (and can't)?! At what point did the tables turn and where the fuck have I been?!!
This is nothing new. PC manufacturers have NEVER been able to successfully compete with Apple where Apple is - the whole "7" tablet is better" debacle is the most recent example of this.
What people confuse is, Apple does not try to be all things to all people. They have specific and narrow product lines.
PC manufacturers are all over the place. They produce everything from Netbooks to bargain basement PC's that practically fall apart when you touch them up through ultra-high end workstations.
So people will take a bargain basement PC and try to compare it to a Mac Pro and then proclaim "Apple is overly expensive!" - which, if the Mac Pro is the only thing that meets their needs might be effectively true - but what is more accurate is Apple is overpriced for that person since they don't offer the same specs and quality machine they need, not that when similarly match they are overpriced.
This has been born out over and over again - when compared feature for feature, Apple is always right there or often beating their competitors. Sure, you might be willing to accept a thicker, heaver notebook with worse battery life - Apple just doesn't offer those.
We are witnessing the real squeeze right now - as what were previously luxury categories trend downward naturally, Apple is going to be there dominating and sucking the proverbial oxygen out of the room. This is happening with the iPad, and now it's happening with the MacBook Air. It's been that way with most of the MacBook Pro line, but people have been so used to accepting less that it doesn't stand out from the crowd of normal Notebooks. But like the iPad, the MacBook Air is so unique and essentially a new category, the differences between them and all other offerings is very obvious.
Maybe they can fake carbon fibre it....
I'm trying to understand why such a large gap exists when they could make $20 off a $399 regular netbook, but can't accept similar margins on high-end netbook just to undercut Apple. Is there something else that's significantly different?
If you don't see the difference between a bargain basement netbook that has ultra-cheap components and severe compromises in CPU, Video, RAM and storage as well as low resolution displays and a MacBook Air... well, I doubt there is much we could do to enlighten you.
You are talking two totally different classes of machines with radically different design philosophies and performance characteristics.
There's a reason, especially in the face of the iPad, Netbook sales have tanked and hit manufacturers like Acer that were depending on high volumes of their sales really hard.
If Intel wants to create an Ultrabook with similar dimensions and specifications to Apple notebooks and can't do it with a similar price, it has a choice. It can choose to create notebooks with Linux. It isn't free for manufacturers but it is way cheaper than Windows. Doing this would make the Ultrabooks price competitive with the Apple notebooks.
Typically to sell a product you have to make a product that people want
If that sounds harsh, I can't help it - it's the truth. There is still zero demand from end users in general for Linux. That's a fact and no amount of pushing is going to change that. When Linux distributions are easy to use and support the applications that people want to use then they will take off.
And as for Applications, if a Linux pusher really wanted to solve the application problem they need to fashion a Linux distro with the equivalent of the Lion launch pad and tie into one of the Android stores for Honeycomb/tablets. Not ideal but better than the goose egg that is the average persons view of useful software on Linux.
Yes, I realize there are tons of people happily using Linux - you just need to acknowledge that they are about as far from the mainstream as you can get and therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Indeed, even Mac OSX and Windows are way more complicated and involved than the vast majority of "normal" people want. People want tools to accomplish things, not technology or computers - this concept is VERY hard for geeks or tech oriented people to understand because for us using technology is fun in and of itself.
We are a minority.
You need to keep reminding yourself of that.
It's why, especially as Apple polishes iOS and with iCloud de-emphasizes the importance of the PC in the overall experience, that iOS usage is going to take off again. iOS represents what most people want - easy to use solutions in a user-friendly and non-technical format. Tools. Appliances. Whatever you want to call them - they are friendly, immediately useful and don't require people to conform to them in order for useful work to be done.
And no, Apple isn't worried about cannibalizing the Mac. Because they fully intend to no longer be dependent on the Mac for their revenue - they are moving onto the next big thing: iOS. They are skating to where the puck will be!
And no, it also doesn't mean Apple is going to abandon Mac OSX either. It's still a vital part of their overall scheme. But unlike Microsoft, Apple is secure enough to de-emphasize one product line when another is poised to eclipse it. Just look at the confused message from Microsoft when it comes to Tablets. They are paralyzed and unable to act boldly. They are sticking with the same strategy (windows everywhere!) that has worked so well for them for the past 10 years - yeah, that's brilliant!
Note the patent was filled in 1992 and refers to floppy disc drives in the full description. We've come a long way.
Jobs was at it with the Apple III - the power supply was integrated into the case for thermal reasons. There was no fan! Unfortunately the power supply technology at the time wasn't good enough and they often overheated. Passive cooling just wasn't good enough!
One of many design failures of the Apple III and amazingly similar to this.
Fiberglass is used in many applications in the boating industry. Durability has already been proven.
Durability for a hull and durability or other characteristics for notebooks are another thing entirely.
If it's so ideal, why is it their "fall back" solution?!?
Heat dissipation is a none issue as notebooks these days dont produce as much heat as they used to.
Really? My work windows computer has a plastic case and the fan on it is constantly going. My Aluminum MacBook Pro gets warm, but the fan only kicks in when I'm doing really CPU intensive stuff. Heat dissipation is huge! Not only is fan noise annoying, fans dramatically lower battery life.
Please don't try to make this as an "advantage" - it's no more an advantage than 7" screens for iPad competitors were.
Yep! With a little effort they could have a high volume line up in a year or two .
And exactly how much experience do you have in high volume low margin product manufacturing?
If it was so easy everyone would be doing it and Apple wouldn't be beating the pants off of everyone else. Your assertions just don't make sense.
This thread has gone down hill in record time ...
yes.
when i read you comment i, at first didn't believe it, but then i re-read the second post in this thread. you're absolutely correctly; the thread went down hill in record time indeed. what amazes me is the article didn't reference Sony, Samsung or Google. one can only conclude that some Apple fanatics are defensive by nature and, in some queer sense of rationalisation, see it fit to still hold grudges against non-Apple manufacturers in the home computing market.
anyways, in a world where supply chains were not constrained (due to reasons mentioned in the original post) i wonder how well Apple would be doing in the market.
anyways, in a world where supply chains were not constrained (due to reasons mentioned in the original post) i wonder how well Apple would be doing in the market.
lol - Apple's success isn't because their competitors supply chains are constrained....
I'm not sure why these reports indicate that Intel is pushing the ultra book standard in competition to Apple - since Apple is probably one of Intel's largest customers!
Doesn't make sense that Intel would be pushing it - I can understand if multiple Windows PC manufacturers are, but is Intel really pushing?
I mean this article finally mentioned "Intel and its partner PC makers" but it still seems silly to me. Is there any reference where Intel itself is actively involved?
Maybe this?
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/...ultrabook.html
http://blogs.intel.com/technology/20...mputing_is.php
Also, one of the previous AI articles link to an Engadget article showing a presentation slide and press release by Intel
I think Intel has made system reference designs in the past, I don't see where to get that kind of information, it might still be NDA or exclusive with large computer makers. It better be a lot farther along than alleged chassis supply issues to hit the Holiday 2011 goal shown in the first Intel page. I've not worked on a project of anywhere nearly the complexity of a computer, but I expect that redesigning the shell & chassis in August for mass production in October/November for sale by Black Friday is unrealistic at best. Even simple looking molds and dies can have a 12 week lead time.
They can take the most common components, like memory, and make th scarce. They didn't have that sort of influence 10 years ago.
Erm no, they can't. They're the biggest single buyer of NAND but still only 30% of the market, they aren't making it scarce in any meaningful way. They have a good lock on the large multi-touch screen systems required for tablets, but that's because until recently nobody was using them.
what amazes me is the article didn't reference Sony, Samsung or Google.
Why would an article about ultrabooks reference google? Why would it even reference Samsung? Only one of those three that makes sense is Sony since the Vaio range has included some premium ultraportables, though how comparable they are to the Air in terms of power or build quality is questionable.
Erm no, they can't. They're the biggest single buyer of NAND but still only 30% of the market, they aren't making it scarce in any meaningful way. They have a good lock on the large multi-touch screen systems required for tablets, but that's because until recently nobody was using them.
Hmm. I know in 2009, when Samsung and Micron were telling their module customers their supply of NAND was going to be 1/2 (or in microns case 0) for certain months, it was widely attributed to Apple locking up supply. Maybe you know better.
Hmm. I know in 2009, when Samsung and Micron were telling their module customers their supply of NAND was going to be 1/2 (or in microns case 0) for certain months, it was widely attributed to Apple locking up supply. Maybe you know better.
That's just two of half a dozen or so major NAND chip suppliers, how about the others?
... and I'm extremely happy about that. Odd, though, that we don't have some pc blowhards entering this thread explaining how much better the $1300 pc is compared to the "crappy" $999 MBA.
Suuure... because we all know MBA is best for everything one can demand from one's computer
Suuure... because we all know MBA is best for everything one can demand from one's computer
I'm pretty sure the MBA can do anything an Ultrabook can do, which is the subject of this article. To assume it means any $1300 PC would likely be taking the comment out of context.