Samsung stalls, accuses Apple of doctoring evidence in US iPhone, iPad copying case

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  • Reply 21 of 142
    tnsftnsf Posts: 203member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    So you're saying the average customer would confuse an iphone 4 with a Samsung transform?



    Thats what Apple is saying, although I think they are limiting their argument to the Galaxy devices that have a similar form factor.
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  • Reply 22 of 142
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    OK.. say someone is suing you in the US. You are also doing well in europe, does not not make sense to prep for a battle there?



    The court Apple chose is the one that almost every patent dispute is funneled through because they favor patent holders over pretty much anything else. This is pretty well know in their legal circles (as even Florian pointed out). Apple is seeking an injunction in the US and in Australia, so it makes sense to be pre-emptive.



    Those documents that came out also show that apple DID NOT inform Samsung that they filed for the injunction, and Samsung didn't have a chance to present their arguments during that case. The fact that they suspected it might be coming doesn't mean they committed "perjury"



    Preparation for lawsuits arose after failed talks of partnering patent fees back in December. Try again. Samsung knew they were gearing up for a global legal battle back in December.
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  • Reply 23 of 142
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,759member
    Trying to embarrass Apple leads to more pain . . . inflicted by Apple.



    The courts, ITC, regulatory bodies, so many of them over the past decade, have investigated Apple in all manner of allegations, charges, etc. Nothing significant has ever come of them.



    To think Apple does not know exactly what they're doing, with their current team, is pretty ridiculous. Apple will find a way around nearly everything because they are incredibly astute and clever, legally speaking.



    The entity that needs to stop is Samsung. Apple already has the game figured out until the end. This might very well change in the future if Apple were under different management, who might have a different strategy. But for now, they're far too smart for the Samsungs of the world.



    Samsung is already hurting in several key areas, and the law has already favoured Apple several times in this Apple-Samsung war.



    The solution is for Apple's rivals (like Samsung) is to step up their game drastically. To shake up the industry. The old ways won't cut it anymore. Derivative devices just aren't enough because innovators like Apple *will* attempt to exercise their IP rights on those who are unable to differentiate themselves or who don't have strong first-mover status.



    Samsung and everyone else had their chance to pull off a June 2007 or a January 2010. But the brand name attached to the iPhone and iPad is Apple, not Samsung.



    This is what happens when you swim with an Apex Predator like Apple. Apple not only manages to achieve first-mover status when and where it counts, but also brings their values and philosophy to the game (the same values and philosophy no one else has.) This results in a killer combination. Add to that two key things: they patent whatever they can like crazy (smart thing to do) and then, knowing they have all the consumer mindshare and "innovator status" on their side, plus probably the best legal team in the biz, they set about enforcing their IP *wherever they can.*



    This sort of activity is now par for the course. Culling of the tech herd. It's going to be brutal, and the wheat will get separated from the chaff. Some won't be able to hang in the game (like HP), and others will probably go in impressive directions and thrive. It might just take another Apple - maybe not in name, but in values, philosophy, motivation, leadership, and innovation. A tall order, but them's the breaks. That's the new reality.



    Samsung and the rest are not facing a mere bully. That term is far too simplistic and crude. They are facing the smartest company in tech that seems to 1) know how to exercise their legal rights, and 2) are experts on how to take big risks and win - market risks and legal risks.



    Best thing for Samsung and the rest to do: stop trying to fight Apple in the courts. Apple has no problem losing on small, manageable litigation - pay out this small entity or that small entity, etc. But on big litigation that they've got on "project status", fighting Apple is like rolling a large boulder uphill. It's possible to do it, but by the time you get there you'll be exhausted and thinking it probably wasn't worth it after all.



    Cheers
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  • Reply 24 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Preparation for lawsuits arose after failed talks of partnering patent fees back in December. Try again. Samsung knew they were gearing up for a global legal battle back in December.



    And again, they knew it was likely they would be sued. Apple did not serve them notice of the actual filings, OR give them a chance to contest them before the injunction went through.
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  • Reply 25 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TNSF View Post


    Thats what Apple is saying, although I think they are limiting their argument to the Galaxy devices that have a similar form factor.



    Apple is suing samsung over their entire android lineup.



    For that matter why aren't they attacking Samsung over Bada? That's even more of a rip off of IOS because all it is is the Grid.
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  • Reply 26 of 142
    jkichlinejkichline Posts: 1,369member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post


    Message to Apple: Let it go...move on...you already have about 95% of the tablet market. Why are you fighting so much for the remaining 5%? Yeah, I know....you have every right to protect your inventions.....but jeez, maybe you should wait until there are real competitors out there so that the Feds don't regulate this market as a monopoly.



    If you look at what happened to Apple in the 80's and 90's, you'll see that they (Steve) isn't going to let that happen again. They took the initiative on a new "Post-PC" device, invested gobs of money into it, and they are not going to let others steal their IP this time around.
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  • Reply 27 of 142
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post


    Message to Apple: Let it go...move on...you already have about 95% of the tablet market. Why are you fighting so much for the remaining 5%? Yeah, I know....you have every right to protect your inventions.....but jeez, maybe you should wait until there are real competitors out there so that the Feds don't regulate this market as a monopoly.



    IP theft by the likes of Samsung can quickly erode that 95% market share if left unchecked by Apple.
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  • Reply 28 of 142
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    Apple is making a trade dress argument. one saying that the design they have (hardware) is unique.



    It's not. Again, see star trek



    And this video from 1994:

    http://youtu.be/JBEtPQDQNcI



    Remember, we're talking HARDWARE here. Look at that tablet concept. Rounded corners, really thin, minimalist design (no buttons). Yes, the UI is different, but Samsung is arguing that the hardware design is something that is obvious.



    If it's obvious why did Samsung suddenly delay the launch of Galaxy Tab 10.1 (which they continued to launch as the 10.1v model in countries outside the US) AS SOON AS THE iPAD 2 was displayed then relaunched a closer copy?



    ...and what's with the 30 pin dock connector, I thought fandroids were more enamoured of a range of various ports such as HDMI and USB, which they continuously and monotonously used as an argument of Android's "superiority".



    Why did Samsung suddenly make an ALMOST EXACT copy (for their Tab line) of something that Apple has used fairly exclusively for TEN YEARS.
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  • Reply 29 of 142
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,600member
    Those photos are quite the smoking gun. I hope that Samsung is completely blocked from shipping products that use stolen Apple IP and forced to pay damages.
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  • Reply 30 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    Trying to embarrass Apple leads to more pain . . . inflicted by Apple.



    The courts, ITC, regulatory bodies, so many of them over the past decade, have investigated Apple in all manner of allegations, charges, etc. Nothing significant has ever come of them.



    To think Apple does not know exactly what they're doing, with their current team, is pretty ridiculous. Apple will find a way around nearly everything because they are incredibly astute and clever, legally speaking.



    The entity that needs to stop is Samsung. Apple already has the game figured out until the end. This might very well change in the future if Apple were under different management, who might have a different strategy. But for now, they're far too smart for the Samsungs of the world.



    Samsung is already hurting in several key areas, and the law has already favoured Apple several times in this Apple-Samsung war.



    The solution is for Apple's rivals (like Samsung) is to step up their game drastically. To shake up the industry. The old ways won't cut it anymore. Derivative devices just aren't enough because innovators like Apple *will* attempt to exercise their IP rights on those who are unable to differentiate themselves or who don't have strong first-mover status.



    Samsung and everyone else had their chance to pull off a June 2007 or a January 2010. But the brand name attached to the iPhone and iPad is Apple, not Samsung.



    This is what happens when you swim with an Apex Predator like Apple. Apple not only manages to achieve first-mover status when and where it counts, but also brings their values and philosophy to the game (the same values and philosophy no one else has.) This results in a killer combination. Add to that two key things: they patent whatever they can like crazy (smart thing to do) and then, knowing they have all the consumer mindshare and "innovator status" on their side, plus probably the best legal team in the biz, they set about enforcing their IP *wherever they can.*



    This sort of activity is now par for the course.



    Samsung and the rest are not facing a mere bully. That term is far too simplistic and crude. They are facing the smartest company in tech that seems to 1) know how to exercise their legal rights, and 2) are experts on how to take big risks and win - market risks and legal risks.



    Best thing for Samsung and the rest to do: stop trying to fight Apple in the courts. Apple has no problem losing on small, manageable litigation - pay out this small entity or that small entity, etc. But on big litigation that they've got on "project status", fighting Apple is like rolling a large boulder uphill. It's possible to do it, but by the time you get there you'll be exhausted and thinking it probably wasn't worth it after all.



    Cheers



    Apple will SUE any competition that starts gaining share in their target market. Their patents are broad enough that they can do this. They also ignore any companies that don't pose a huge risk (even ignoring samsung's own Bada) because they are using the courts as a blunt weapon and not as something to "force companies to innovate". Apple is trying to shut the companies down. They pretty much HAVE to fight. The only thing that would protect Samsung (maybe) is going to windowsphone7. Not because it is free of any patent violations, but because Apple would get countersued with stuff it can't dismiss.
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  • Reply 31 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    If it's obvious why did Samsung suddenly delay the launch of Galaxy Tab 10.1 (which they continued to launch as the 10.1v model in countries outside the US) AS SOON AS THE iPAD 2 was displayed then relaunched a closer copy?



    ...and what's with the 30 pin dock connector, I thought fandroids were more enamoured of a range of various ports such as HDMI and USB, which they continuously and monotonously used as an argument of Android's "superiority".



    Why did Samsung suddenly make an ALMOST EXACT copy (for their Tab line) of something that Apple has fairly exclusively used for TEN YEARS.



    They delayed it because they knew it was too thick to compete. JUST LIKE THEY SAID INITIALLY. There is nothing wrong or illegal with changing your product as the industry changes. If you don't, you're blackberry.



    As for the connector, there isn't a tablet device yet that charges using USB because of power requirements. EVERY tablet has their own specific charger. Furthermore, Apple and Samsung's chargers arn't compatible. And please tell me, when was the last time you bought something because it's charger looked familiar?



    the ipad isn't 10 years old. It's 2 years old.



    And this image: http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/04/s...l-photo-frame/ is from 2006
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  • Reply 32 of 142
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    the ipad isn't 10 years old. It's 2 years old.



    Hill60 was referring to the dock connector, not the iPad.
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  • Reply 33 of 142
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    OK.. say someone is suing you in the US. You are also doing well in europe, does not not make sense to prep for a battle there?



    The court Apple chose is the one that almost every patent dispute is funneled through because they favor patent holders over pretty much anything else. This is pretty well know in their legal circles (as even Florian pointed out). Apple is seeking an injunction in the US and in Australia, so it makes sense to be pre-emptive.



    Those documents that came out also show that apple DID NOT inform Samsung that they filed for the injunction, and Samsung didn't have a chance to present their arguments during that case. The fact that they suspected it might be coming doesn't mean they committed "perjury"



    So explain the letter SAMSUNG lodged with the German court a WEEK BEFORE the hearing took place, which forms part of the courts records.



    Is Samsung in the habit of randomly sending letters to courts around the world, just in case a hearing involving them might come up?



    I've heard of legal longshots before, but I don't think Samsung's claim of ignorance will wash.
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  • Reply 34 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    So explain the letter SAMSUNG lodged with the German court a WEEK BEFORE the hearing took place, which forms part of the courts records.



    Is Samsung in the habit of randomly sending letters to courts around the world, just in case a hearing involving them might come up?



    I've heard of legal longshots before, but I don't think Samsung's claim of ignorance will wash.



    Ok.. What you're asking is answered in the freaking post you QUOTED.





    The court apple filed in was the one that over 90% of patent disputes in the EU are filed in because it's similar to our East District of Texas, a district that will often side with patent holders and ignore any other evidence (even prior art). IF Apple would file an injunction, it's i statistically probable it would be in that court.



    Don't believe me? then provide me with PROOF that Apple informed Samsung that they had filed for the injunction. I'll save you the trouble. you won't find it, because even DED admits they didn't do this. Samsung having suspicions and acting on those suspicions isn't the same thing as being INFORMED by Apple. Which is what their response implied.
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  • Reply 35 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post


    Hill60 was referring to the dock connector, not the iPad.



    It's my understanding that the 30 pin connector that samsung based their charger off of is an industry standard. It's been copy/pasted quite a bit, everywhere this "argument" comes up. If you didn't believe them then, I'm not going to waste my time digging it up.



    And again, when was the last time you purchased a product based on what a charger looked like. heck, when was the last time you knew what a charger looked like before you opened the box?
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  • Reply 36 of 142
    gwlaw99gwlaw99 Posts: 134member
    Fanboy science: How 'brand identity' impacts self-esteem

    http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/08/ps...ng-self-image/
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  • Reply 37 of 142
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    They delayed it because they knew it was too thick to compete. JUST LIKE THEY SAID INITIALLY. There is nothing wrong or illegal with changing your product as the industry changes. If you don't, you're blackberry.



    As for the connector, there isn't a tablet device yet that charges using USB because of power requirements. EVERY tablet has their own specific charger. Furthermore, Apple and Samsung's chargers arn't compatible. And please tell me, when was the last time you bought something because it's charger looked familiar?



    the ipad isn't 10 years old. It's 2 years old.



    And this image: http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/04/s...l-photo-frame/ is from 2006



    The dock connector that Samsung copied is ten years old.



    All other Android phones (including Samsung one's) use Micro USB as their charging ports.
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  • Reply 38 of 142
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    People that are attempting to make the argument that Apple dominates the market and that they should somehow let this slide are making a pretty dumb and irrelevant argument. It's about the principle of things, and if Apple feels that somebody else has blatantly copied their products, then they have every right to pursue the issue in courts and sue the hell out of whoever they please.



    No product like the iPad with it's OS existed before it was released and while everybody is currently copying the iPad, some are more guilty than others. Especially since Apple is the #1 Samsung customer, Samsung should have been a little bit more careful in their copying ways.



    The supposed photos that have been altered or manipulated, most likely to due to sloppiness or carelessness on the part of whoever put the documents together, are also totally irrelevant because the Judge's ruling is based on handling and seeing the actual physical devices. People and blogs who bring up that photo issue are just trying to distract from the real issue at hand.



    We'll see how this plays out in the courts, and I'd like to see Apple win.



    The way the industry is now, they all wait and see what Apple is coming out with next. Then as soon as Apple announces their next big product, all of the copycat rats get to work on their own version of said product.
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  • Reply 39 of 142
    mennomenno Posts: 854member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    The dock connector that Samsung copied is ten years old.



    All other Android phones (including Samsung one's) and tablets use Micro USB as their charging ports.



    And again.. EVERY tablet has a non-standard charger because of power requirements. The phones use Micro because it's a standard, one that's required in the EU (So your iphone will have an adapter, at the least)
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  • Reply 40 of 142
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Menno View Post


    Ok.. What you're asking is answered in the freaking post you QUOTED.





    The court apple filed in was the one that over 90% of patent disputes in the EU are filed in because it's similar to our East District of Texas, a district that will often side with patent holders and ignore any other evidence (even prior art). IF Apple would file an injunction, it's i statistically probable it would be in that court.



    Don't believe me? then provide me with PROOF that Apple informed Samsung that they had filed for the injunction. I'll save you the trouble. you won't find it, because even DED admits they didn't do this. Samsung having suspicions and acting on those suspicions isn't the same thing as being INFORMED by Apple. Which is what their response implied.



    So are the post offices of East Texas also filled with Samsung's random letters?



    Does Samsung have a department which sends their random letters out weekly, monthly or what?
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