I knew these guys back in the old days, though not very well, when I would attend some meetings of the Homebrew Computer Club. I'm a New Yorker, but my job would require I get to California every month or so for a time. I'd try to arrange my trip when a meeting was scheduled. Sometimes I'd see them, and other guys who are well known today.
I had turned down an offer in 1968 from a friend to form a computer company shortly after beginning college. He's a brilliant guy, but at that time I thought it was crazy to form a computer company, especially at our ages. It became pretty successful. I figured if the chance came up again with someone who had a good idea, I'd take it. But, the conversation never came up in the club. Too bad.
You could add that Ron Wayne, who seems like a great guy, might be gone if he'd stayed involved, a victim of stress and despair.
He does a great interview in "Welcome to the Macintosh," for those who haven't seen that movie.
On the other hand, he could have left, as the Woz did, as Paul Allan did, and as many other founders and early employees of other major companies have done, while retaining their stock.
I don't know the complete reason why he left, but I do believe his experiences with his own finances had the largest part of it. No one is forced to remain an employee of a company they founded. And even if they are, as the Woz is, it's just for the sake of appreciation. He's smart enough to have known that.
On the other hand, he could have left, as the Woz did, as Paul Allan did, and as many other founders and early employees of other major companies have done, while retaining their stock.
I don't know the complete reason why he left, but I do believe his experiences with his own finances had the largest part of it. No one is forced to remain an employee of a company they founded. And even if they are, as the Woz is, it's just for the sake of appreciation. He's smart enough to have known that.
True that one's recent loss affects one's next move. Your other post here reflects that too: the chance not taken.
Suddenly Newton was imagining an outcome where things at Apple didn't turn out like they did. Good ol' Ron Wayne might not be with us today if he hadn't pulled out, especially during the early years of development. Same thing.
In both interviews I've seen with him, years apart, he's an elegant guy seemingly at peace with himself. Judging by the size of his yachts, Paul Allen isn't.
Woz is great no matter what hits him.
Update: Thinking about it, and reading between the lines, the last thing an independent soul like Ron Wayne would be able to do is working on the documentation, doing the tech writing, under a fierce genius like Steve Jobs, or a fuzzy genius like Woz. I'm totally guessing, but I think he, Ron, could see nothing but insane drudgery in that. And like he says, he had his own ideas.
So, according to the co-founders, Steve Jobs wanted to split his shares evenly with his friend Woz (at 45% each) and give Ron Wayne 10% just for being tie-breaker? I'm going to link to this story the next time some hater accuses Jobs of taking advantage of Woz.
No one made Wayne agree to those terms. He wasn't doing any of the big design work so he felt it was fair and agreed to it who are we to say he was taken advantage of. Especially when we have hindsight to look at
Given that he wasn't a part of the actual design work, it is a stretch to call him a co-founder in my opinion
True that one's recent loss affects one's next move. Your other post here reflects that too: the chance not taken.
Suddenly Newton was imagining an outcome where things at Apple didn't turn out like they did. Good ol' Ron Wayne might not be with us today if he hadn't pulled out, especially during the early years of development. Same thing.
In both interviews I've seen with him, years apart, he's an elegant guy seemingly at peace with himself. Judging by the size of his yachts, Paul Allen isn't.
Woz is great no matter what hits him.
Update: Thinking about it, and reading between the lines, the last thing an independent soul like Ron Wayne would be able to do is working on the documentation, doing the tech writing, under a fierce genius like Steve Jobs, or a fuzzy genius like Woz. I'm totally guessing, but I think he, Ron, could see nothing but insane drudgery in that. And like he says, he had his own ideas.
In addition to what I said, individuals insulate their personal finances from the companie's finances. There is no reason why he should have thought he would be personally liable for any debts the company incurred. Unless of course, his knowledge of finances isn't as good as we're led to believe. I never had any personal liability from any of my companies. The only thing he might have lost is any money he loaned the company. And in that case, he could have been listed as a primary creditor, i.e., someone who gets put at, or near the front of the line in case of bankruptcy.
Well, he could have left, as I said. But I doubt anyone in his position would ever be stuck with writing documentation once the company rose to a large enough size. I wrote most of the manuals for the company I was a partner in that manufactured pro audio equipment. But we were a small company, and I enjoyed doing it. If we had grown to several times the size, we would have hired people to do that. I still would have looked it over.
And of course, he wasnt a lawyer, so he couldn't have done any real legal work for the company. At worst, he would have become the COO, or, if qualified, the CFO, though that position looks doubtful to me. But they have people do actually do much of the drudge work.
No one made Wayne agree to those terms. He wasn't doing any of the big design work so he felt it was fair and agreed to it who are we to say he was taken advantage of. Especially when we have hindsight to look at
Given that he wasn't a part of the actual design work, it is a stretch to call him a co-founder in my opinion
A co-founder just has to be someone who co-founded the company. (s)he doesn't have to do any work at all.
Money isn't everything. Some guys are extremely aggressive with stock ownership (Larry E and Bill G and countless others). Occasionally, they win big and win they do, they go down as the richest people.
But equally important and valuable people conduct their affairs differently -- sometimes more prudently -- and end up poorer as a result. Steve Jobs could easily be the richest man in the world, but he didn't organize his Apple shares in that particular way. Same for other titans of industry. Early Facebook / google employees too probably.
Net worth is pretty meaningless, anyway. I have enough net worth to stay fed. After that it gets to be more and more academic.
In addition to what I said, individuals insulate their personal finances from the companie's finances. There is no reason why he should have thought he would be personally liable for any debts the company incurred. Unless of course, his knowledge of finances isn't as good as we're led to believe.
Number one, it sounds like the company wasn't incorporated. That means it's three people using credit to buy stuff, paying back the creditors when they sold something. It certainly wasn't an LLC, which shields individuals from the company's liabilities.
It kind of sucks for the people like Wayne. Even if they say they don't regret it, you know it still has to sting. Then again, hindsight is 20/20 and it's not until the last 10 years that Apple became the company it is now.
My guess is he has to say that for the sake of his own sanity. Otherwise he'd be in a cheap motel with a bottle of Jack Daniels in one hand and a loaded .44 magnum in the other.
I was offered a job about 14 years ago with a startup concern. They couldn't pay my full rate, so they wanted to make up the difference in stock options. I refused their offer, as it was just too risky in my mind. About 3 years ago they were bought out by a Fortune 500 company. My stake would have probably been worth a few hundred thousand - certainly less than a million by the time of the buyout.
As you say, hindsight is always 20/20. But even for that relatively small amount, I try not to think about it if I'm drinking... or cleaning my guns. For $35 billion, I'd be on permanent suicide watch.
But if he's really OK with it, good for him. Money truly isn't everything.
His excuse about shuffling papers is weak, at best.
The man could have worked for a decade and then left worth a fortune. Then he could start up any business that he wanted.
He's a very nice man but not much vision in the old chap.
Tough-minded as always, this time maybe too tough. Usually I agree but this time . . .
He did exactly what he should have done, given the situation at the time. Woz said it was about integrity, and he's right. No way was Ron Wayne going to put up with the "it's not good enough" treatment from Jobs. He's clearly a mensch. But he was not from the counterculture, which is what he means by "they were very bright guys," or words to that effect, don't remember exactly. There was a gulf, impassible for someone of principled independence. That's the way I read it at least. All speculation, of course.
Interesting the reactions to this story. Everybody can know everything after the fact, especially well after. Knowing something in advance, especially well in advance, is the real trick -- and involves more luck than any other thing. Anyone could have grabbed a brass ring if only they'd known what it was in advance.
Some make it sound otherwise -- that it would be obvious in well before the fact that a company created by "two smart guys" would 35 years later become one of the most successful in the world. We should know that most "two smart guys" enterprises go nowhere and have a nasty habit of flushing everyone involved down the toilet.
So while we're talking about Ron Wayne's ability to live a happy life even knowing that he could have been as rich as a sheik, we might also talk about Steve Wozniak. He dropped out of Apple in the early '80s and proceeded to blow most of the money he'd made to that point on projects he cared about, some nice, others just plain silly. He lives a fairly modest life now, but by all accounts, a contented one.
So really this is a story about living without regrets. If you don't develop that skill, you're going to be an unhappy person no matter how your material life turns out, because everyone looking back, if they are going to be honest, will clearly see their woulda-shoulda-coulda moments. So I give Ron Wayne high marks for not living in the past, for moving forward with his life without regrets. In the end, that's what it's all about.
Number one, it sounds like the company wasn't incorporated. That means it's three people using credit to buy stuff, paying back the creditors when they sold something. It certainly wasn't an LLC, which shields individuals from the company's liabilities.
That's not a company. That's just three guys getting together.
Comments
Then again, hindsight is 20/20 and it's not until the last 10 years that Apple became the company it is now.
Incorrect. The Steves became millionaires during the Apple II days.
shuffling papers for the rest of my life
Turns out those papers would have been stacks of hundred dollar bills.
I had turned down an offer in 1968 from a friend to form a computer company shortly after beginning college. He's a brilliant guy, but at that time I thought it was crazy to form a computer company, especially at our ages. It became pretty successful. I figured if the chance came up again with someone who had a good idea, I'd take it. But, the conversation never came up in the club. Too bad.
A nice nightmare scenario. I mean it, no sarcasm.
You could add that Ron Wayne, who seems like a great guy, might be gone if he'd stayed involved, a victim of stress and despair.
He does a great interview in "Welcome to the Macintosh," for those who haven't seen that movie.
On the other hand, he could have left, as the Woz did, as Paul Allan did, and as many other founders and early employees of other major companies have done, while retaining their stock.
I don't know the complete reason why he left, but I do believe his experiences with his own finances had the largest part of it. No one is forced to remain an employee of a company they founded. And even if they are, as the Woz is, it's just for the sake of appreciation. He's smart enough to have known that.
Turns out those papers would have been stacks of hundred dollar bills.
Twelve spots too late for that joke...see #11
On the other hand, he could have left, as the Woz did, as Paul Allan did, and as many other founders and early employees of other major companies have done, while retaining their stock.
I don't know the complete reason why he left, but I do believe his experiences with his own finances had the largest part of it. No one is forced to remain an employee of a company they founded. And even if they are, as the Woz is, it's just for the sake of appreciation. He's smart enough to have known that.
True that one's recent loss affects one's next move. Your other post here reflects that too: the chance not taken.
Suddenly Newton was imagining an outcome where things at Apple didn't turn out like they did. Good ol' Ron Wayne might not be with us today if he hadn't pulled out, especially during the early years of development. Same thing.
In both interviews I've seen with him, years apart, he's an elegant guy seemingly at peace with himself. Judging by the size of his yachts, Paul Allen isn't.
Woz is great no matter what hits him.
Update: Thinking about it, and reading between the lines, the last thing an independent soul like Ron Wayne would be able to do is working on the documentation, doing the tech writing, under a fierce genius like Steve Jobs, or a fuzzy genius like Woz. I'm totally guessing, but I think he, Ron, could see nothing but insane drudgery in that. And like he says, he had his own ideas.
So, according to the co-founders, Steve Jobs wanted to split his shares evenly with his friend Woz (at 45% each) and give Ron Wayne 10% just for being tie-breaker? I'm going to link to this story the next time some hater accuses Jobs of taking advantage of Woz.
No one made Wayne agree to those terms. He wasn't doing any of the big design work so he felt it was fair and agreed to it who are we to say he was taken advantage of. Especially when we have hindsight to look at
Given that he wasn't a part of the actual design work, it is a stretch to call him a co-founder in my opinion
True that one's recent loss affects one's next move. Your other post here reflects that too: the chance not taken.
Suddenly Newton was imagining an outcome where things at Apple didn't turn out like they did. Good ol' Ron Wayne might not be with us today if he hadn't pulled out, especially during the early years of development. Same thing.
In both interviews I've seen with him, years apart, he's an elegant guy seemingly at peace with himself. Judging by the size of his yachts, Paul Allen isn't.
Woz is great no matter what hits him.
Update: Thinking about it, and reading between the lines, the last thing an independent soul like Ron Wayne would be able to do is working on the documentation, doing the tech writing, under a fierce genius like Steve Jobs, or a fuzzy genius like Woz. I'm totally guessing, but I think he, Ron, could see nothing but insane drudgery in that. And like he says, he had his own ideas.
In addition to what I said, individuals insulate their personal finances from the companie's finances. There is no reason why he should have thought he would be personally liable for any debts the company incurred. Unless of course, his knowledge of finances isn't as good as we're led to believe. I never had any personal liability from any of my companies. The only thing he might have lost is any money he loaned the company. And in that case, he could have been listed as a primary creditor, i.e., someone who gets put at, or near the front of the line in case of bankruptcy.
Well, he could have left, as I said. But I doubt anyone in his position would ever be stuck with writing documentation once the company rose to a large enough size. I wrote most of the manuals for the company I was a partner in that manufactured pro audio equipment. But we were a small company, and I enjoyed doing it. If we had grown to several times the size, we would have hired people to do that. I still would have looked it over.
And of course, he wasnt a lawyer, so he couldn't have done any real legal work for the company. At worst, he would have become the COO, or, if qualified, the CFO, though that position looks doubtful to me. But they have people do actually do much of the drudge work.
No one made Wayne agree to those terms. He wasn't doing any of the big design work so he felt it was fair and agreed to it who are we to say he was taken advantage of. Especially when we have hindsight to look at
Given that he wasn't a part of the actual design work, it is a stretch to call him a co-founder in my opinion
A co-founder just has to be someone who co-founded the company. (s)he doesn't have to do any work at all.
But equally important and valuable people conduct their affairs differently -- sometimes more prudently -- and end up poorer as a result. Steve Jobs could easily be the richest man in the world, but he didn't organize his Apple shares in that particular way. Same for other titans of industry. Early Facebook / google employees too probably.
Net worth is pretty meaningless, anyway. I have enough net worth to stay fed. After that it gets to be more and more academic.
In addition to what I said, individuals insulate their personal finances from the companie's finances. There is no reason why he should have thought he would be personally liable for any debts the company incurred. Unless of course, his knowledge of finances isn't as good as we're led to believe.
Number one, it sounds like the company wasn't incorporated. That means it's three people using credit to buy stuff, paying back the creditors when they sold something. It certainly wasn't an LLC, which shields individuals from the company's liabilities.
It kind of sucks for the people like Wayne. Even if they say they don't regret it, you know it still has to sting. Then again, hindsight is 20/20 and it's not until the last 10 years that Apple became the company it is now.
My guess is he has to say that for the sake of his own sanity. Otherwise he'd be in a cheap motel with a bottle of Jack Daniels in one hand and a loaded .44 magnum in the other.
I was offered a job about 14 years ago with a startup concern. They couldn't pay my full rate, so they wanted to make up the difference in stock options. I refused their offer, as it was just too risky in my mind. About 3 years ago they were bought out by a Fortune 500 company. My stake would have probably been worth a few hundred thousand - certainly less than a million by the time of the buyout.
As you say, hindsight is always 20/20. But even for that relatively small amount, I try not to think about it if I'm drinking... or cleaning my guns. For $35 billion, I'd be on permanent suicide watch.
But if he's really OK with it, good for him. Money truly isn't everything.
The man could have worked for a decade and then left worth a fortune. Then he could start up any business that he wanted.
He's a very nice man but not much vision in the old chap.
His excuse about shuffling papers is weak, at best.
The man could have worked for a decade and then left worth a fortune. Then he could start up any business that he wanted.
He's a very nice man but not much vision in the old chap.
Tough-minded as always, this time maybe too tough. Usually I agree but this time . . .
He did exactly what he should have done, given the situation at the time. Woz said it was about integrity, and he's right. No way was Ron Wayne going to put up with the "it's not good enough" treatment from Jobs. He's clearly a mensch. But he was not from the counterculture, which is what he means by "they were very bright guys," or words to that effect, don't remember exactly. There was a gulf, impassible for someone of principled independence. That's the way I read it at least. All speculation, of course.
Some make it sound otherwise -- that it would be obvious in well before the fact that a company created by "two smart guys" would 35 years later become one of the most successful in the world. We should know that most "two smart guys" enterprises go nowhere and have a nasty habit of flushing everyone involved down the toilet.
So while we're talking about Ron Wayne's ability to live a happy life even knowing that he could have been as rich as a sheik, we might also talk about Steve Wozniak. He dropped out of Apple in the early '80s and proceeded to blow most of the money he'd made to that point on projects he cared about, some nice, others just plain silly. He lives a fairly modest life now, but by all accounts, a contented one.
So really this is a story about living without regrets. If you don't develop that skill, you're going to be an unhappy person no matter how your material life turns out, because everyone looking back, if they are going to be honest, will clearly see their woulda-shoulda-coulda moments. So I give Ron Wayne high marks for not living in the past, for moving forward with his life without regrets. In the end, that's what it's all about.
Isn't that Grandpa from the Munsters?
That's a great start here.
Number one, it sounds like the company wasn't incorporated. That means it's three people using credit to buy stuff, paying back the creditors when they sold something. It certainly wasn't an LLC, which shields individuals from the company's liabilities.
That's not a company. That's just three guys getting together.