Apple pulled a funny on FC. It reminded me of the switch from iMovie (HD?) to the new iMovie 08 if memory serves me correctly. Those that lived through this will know what I am talking about. I kept that old version till 09 and was not fully satisfied till 11.
I think it may take apple a few versions before people who left come back to FC.
It was iMovie 06 because it removed features. The offered iMovie HD as a free download for while. Then they removed it when added many features back in iMovie 08 and now everyone loves iMovie. Well, obviously not a professional video editor, but most consumers that edit video like iMovie.
Sound familiar. FCP X will come around. All Apple did was shift the most ornery of customers over to Adobe and left the level headed ones that are sill using FCP 7 and will upgrade when it suits them, on top of the increased prosumers. We'll see if it works out for them.
I won't deny FCPX's shortcomings, and people are going to continue to enjoy ragging on it in the near term, but every time I use it I find more really smart thinking at the core of the program.
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one. There's too much great stuff going on in this program for it to be considered a failure by any reasonable person.
People will laugh now, but I'm not sure they'll be laughing so hard in a year or two.
Agreed. It's a rough transition, but it will work. People complained about MacOS 9 to MacOS X too. They threatened to move to Windows, they claimed Apple doesn't care about user interface anymore. It took many Mac users until 10.2 and 10.3 to make the switch, but they did and are happy about it now.
. That way they could buyout adobe without a problem/probe from DOJ. Well that's my hopeful conspiracy theory!
Adobe is lazy, so they wouldn't fit into Apple's corporate culture. And besides, Apple is all about open standards. No way do they want anything to do with Flash when HTML5 can do it all so much better.
Adobe announced 45 percent growth year over year for its video creation tools on the Mac on Thursday, driven in part by switchers dissatisfied with Apple's controversial Final Cut Pro X.
Adobe probably had 5% of the Mac market for video editing. So basically they increased to 7.5%.
45% sound big but rather it sounds like Adobe is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
Come on Adobe. Tells us how many copies you sold? Marketshare? Something meaningful?
The Cupertino, Calif., company has promised to add the missing features in a future update...
Not true, they promised to add SOME of the missing features but said that others likely wouldn't return or would require third party add-ons to get the functionality back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one.
Good point. The reaction would have been much different if they had continued selling FCS and released X as a free or heavily discounted public beta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla
It's not like Apple took it away from them.
Well, they DID take it away, and only made it available after the huge outcry. And it wasn't fully made available, just to certain customers (maybe they've changed that since then, I don't know). Do you see the previous version of FCS on the apple store or otherwise available for sale to the general public?
Quote:
Originally Posted by emulator
And the same thing will happen to Logic X.
No reason to believe that if you've actually used Logic and are familiar with that software's history. That's just an uninformed knee jerk reaction to any product name that has an X in it.
I would agree with this only if FCP X fails to deliver on introducing new features that the market finds exciting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Yeah, that's a very serious problem. Apple knows better than anyone that mindshare is a fundamental part of succeeding in a market. Final Cut Pro wasn't perfect but it had that mindshare. Final Cut Pro X has lost some for this brand.
So, Final Cut Pro X does what every technology does: moves from the realm of the specialist, skilled crafstperson out into the wider group of people who need smarter tools that won?t let them get into trouble. A skilled mechanic bemoans the fact that they can?t tinker with modern cars, and race-car drivers have very different needs than the average driver, there are those who need a fine-tuned vehicle, the general purpose vehicle that requires no knowledge of how the engine works in order to drive for pleasure or in fact to drive for a living. No special skills or knowledge needed. We?re not *there* yet with video editing but we?re heading there.
For those who want to tinker, or need a race car, the smarter ?dumbing down? software is a threat or at best as useless as a Smart Car on a race track. But for everyone else ? the vast majority of drivers ? the dumbed down modern car is a big improvement.
Yeah but it took what, 3 years, for them to fix it? Apple doesn't live in a vacuum. There have been grumblings for awhile that Apple was neglecting the professional market. They knew that. So what do they do? They release FCX gasoline to pour on that fire.
I am not sure how anyone could not consider FCX's launch a complete failure. Over time, it will probably get fixed but there is no doubt Apple will have lost a lot of video professionals by the time that happens and they won't come back.
Yeah but it took what, 3 years, for them to fix it? Apple doesn't live in a vacuum. There have been grumblings for awhile that Apple was neglecting the professional market. They knew that. So what do they do? They release FCX gasoline to pour on that fire.
This is analogues to the iPhone. When the iPhone was first introduced there was nothing like it. Still people complained that it did not have this or that. The reason it did not have this or that is because Apple was building something completely new that no one else had ever done before.
The iPhone didn't need to be fixed - it wasn't broken. It was being developed.
Its the same with iMove and FCP X. They are completely new products. They aren't broken per se, they are being further developed. Its like saying FCP version 1 was broken in comparison to FCP version 7.
Quote:
I am not sure how anyone could not consider FCX's launch a complete failure.
How are you measuring failure? In business terms failure is measured by sales not by a bunch of cackling on internet blogs. From all indications FCP X has sold very well.
Quote:
Over time, it will probably get fixed but there is no doubt Apple will have lost a lot of video professionals by the time that happens and they won't come back.
To give you some perspective on FCP in the video market. Video equipment manufacturers are making equipment with Quick Time and Apple Pro Res codecs built into the equipment so that they can easily create video that can be edited immediately in FCP. This is being done to some degree for Avid, Avid has also had to support Pro Res because its such a widely used codec. But this isn't being done to the same degree for any other NLE.
This 45% boost for Adobe Premiere Pro likely means they went from hardly any sales to actually a few sales. Likely hardly a dent in the FCP user base.
I was fooling around with lots of things open -- so I thought I see what was hitting the CPU the hardest:
This is on a maxed-out iMac 27 3.4 GHz I7, 16GB RAM
-- I have about 60 Safari windows, 12 0pen, 1 with 20 tabs.
-- No Safari windows using Flash are open, so Flash isn't doing anything.
-- FCPX isn't doing anything either.
-- but FCPX isn't doing anything a lot more efficiently than Flash isn't doing anything
As I understand it, one of the reason FCPX performs so well is that it uses AVFoundation -- and, AVFoundation was developed for iOS, then ported back to Mac OS X.
I don't know if Adobe plans to (or can) take advantage of this technology in Flash and their Pro A/V tools.
Its the same with iMove and FCP X. They are completely new products. They aren't broken per se, they are being further developed. Its like saying FCP version 1 was broken in comparison to FCP version 7.
Really? FCP X replaced FCP 7. Which Apple product did the iPhone replace?
Really? FCP X replaced FCP 7. Which Apple product did the iPhone replace?
You know as well as any of us that FCPX didn't replace FCP 7!
I think Apple totally misread and mishandled the situation.
But, there are enough respected pros who realize that :
-- the game is just beginning
-- post is evolving rather quickly
-- NLE software, FCP 7 in particular, doesn't even exploit current technology
-- technology offers the potential to remove/reduce the tedium and allow the pro to concentrate on story telling
I believe that the goals of FCPX are to address the above, and provide a basis for the next decade of editing and a whole new breed of "pros".
FCPX is off to a rocky start -- and Apple burned some bridges...
Now, what remains is for Apple to deliver on the [unfulfilled] promises of FCPX.
... I am betting that they will!
Hey, Apple -- this would be a really good month to provide the 1st FCPX update -- and get off that .0 release level. (One of the promises of FCPX is that it will be easier to upgrade it more frequently).
Why Apple cared to RETHINK the FCP codebase, and start from a clean slate, missing some features in the process? (most to be added in the next version).
It took MONEY (engineers don't come cheap), original thinking, RE-thinking the problem space, time, and even annoyed some monkey editors...
Why couldn't they just pile a few new features on an the same old bloated program and sell it as a brand new version?
It's only been 2 1/2 months since FCP X was released. How fast do people make big decisions like this? Final Cut Studio was still in the hands of professionals and now it's available again. It's not like Apple took it away from them.
Well, people making changes like those are not professionals.
Professionals editing studios don't change software for years, let alone jump platform in 3 months...
Maybe Apple should have come out with two versions of Final Cut 10. The first being Final Cut Pro that is like the older version (interface familiar) and just plain Final Cut for the general consumer with the new interface. Maybe that would be the way to go. I am sure Steve has voiced his opinion to the department that came out with the 10 version.
It's not the interface that's the problem - it's the missing features, and the non-compatibility with the old version, so old footage can't be re-used for new projects. The features will apparently (mostly) be added later, but the non-compatibility won't be fixed.
I won't deny FCPX's shortcomings, and people are going to continue to enjoy ragging on it in the near term, but every time I use it I find more really smart thinking at the core of the program.
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one. There's too much great stuff going on in this program for it to be considered a failure by any reasonable person.
People will laugh now, but I'm not sure they'll be laughing so hard in a year or two.
That's what people said about Shake - Apple was coming up with something great (called Phenomenon if memory serves me right). Apple has abandoned the Pro market. I don't begrudge them that - I just wish they would come out and say it and we can all move on. Truthfully, we have already moved on to Adobe for a replacement to FCP and I am starting to look around for an alternative to Logic Pro as that has not received a significant update in years.
Comments
Pretty accurate
And the same thing will happen to Logic X.
Apple pulled a funny on FC. It reminded me of the switch from iMovie (HD?) to the new iMovie 08 if memory serves me correctly. Those that lived through this will know what I am talking about. I kept that old version till 09 and was not fully satisfied till 11.
I think it may take apple a few versions before people who left come back to FC.
It was iMovie 06 because it removed features. The offered iMovie HD as a free download for while. Then they removed it when added many features back in iMovie 08 and now everyone loves iMovie. Well, obviously not a professional video editor, but most consumers that edit video like iMovie.
Sound familiar. FCP X will come around. All Apple did was shift the most ornery of customers over to Adobe and left the level headed ones that are sill using FCP 7 and will upgrade when it suits them, on top of the increased prosumers. We'll see if it works out for them.
I won't deny FCPX's shortcomings, and people are going to continue to enjoy ragging on it in the near term, but every time I use it I find more really smart thinking at the core of the program.
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one. There's too much great stuff going on in this program for it to be considered a failure by any reasonable person.
People will laugh now, but I'm not sure they'll be laughing so hard in a year or two.
Agreed. It's a rough transition, but it will work. People complained about MacOS 9 to MacOS X too. They threatened to move to Windows, they claimed Apple doesn't care about user interface anymore. It took many Mac users until 10.2 and 10.3 to make the switch, but they did and are happy about it now.
And the same thing will happen to Logic X.
Logic already had its architecture upgrade in the last version. Rumors are that it's not a complete redesign.
. That way they could buyout adobe without a problem/probe from DOJ. Well that's my hopeful conspiracy theory!
Adobe is lazy, so they wouldn't fit into Apple's corporate culture. And besides, Apple is all about open standards. No way do they want anything to do with Flash when HTML5 can do it all so much better.
Adobe announced 45 percent growth year over year for its video creation tools on the Mac on Thursday, driven in part by switchers dissatisfied with Apple's controversial Final Cut Pro X.
Adobe probably had 5% of the Mac market for video editing. So basically they increased to 7.5%.
45% sound big but rather it sounds like Adobe is trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
Come on Adobe. Tells us how many copies you sold? Marketshare? Something meaningful?
The Cupertino, Calif., company has promised to add the missing features in a future update...
Not true, they promised to add SOME of the missing features but said that others likely wouldn't return or would require third party add-ons to get the functionality back.
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one.
Good point. The reaction would have been much different if they had continued selling FCS and released X as a free or heavily discounted public beta.
It's not like Apple took it away from them.
Well, they DID take it away, and only made it available after the huge outcry. And it wasn't fully made available, just to certain customers (maybe they've changed that since then, I don't know). Do you see the previous version of FCS on the apple store or otherwise available for sale to the general public?
And the same thing will happen to Logic X.
No reason to believe that if you've actually used Logic and are familiar with that software's history. That's just an uninformed knee jerk reaction to any product name that has an X in it.
45% can sound like a big number, but wouldn't actually be all that much if Premiere Pro was never selling that well to begin with.
Yeah, that's a very serious problem. Apple knows better than anyone that mindshare is a fundamental part of succeeding in a market. Final Cut Pro wasn't perfect but it had that mindshare. Final Cut Pro X has lost some for this brand.
Why is making software smarter ?dumbing it down??
So, Final Cut Pro X does what every technology does: moves from the realm of the specialist, skilled crafstperson out into the wider group of people who need smarter tools that won?t let them get into trouble. A skilled mechanic bemoans the fact that they can?t tinker with modern cars, and race-car drivers have very different needs than the average driver, there are those who need a fine-tuned vehicle, the general purpose vehicle that requires no knowledge of how the engine works in order to drive for pleasure or in fact to drive for a living. No special skills or knowledge needed. We?re not *there* yet with video editing but we?re heading there.
For those who want to tinker, or need a race car, the smarter ?dumbing down? software is a threat or at best as useless as a Smart Car on a race track. But for everyone else ? the vast majority of drivers ? the dumbed down modern car is a big improvement.
...now everyone loves iMovie.
Yeah but it took what, 3 years, for them to fix it? Apple doesn't live in a vacuum. There have been grumblings for awhile that Apple was neglecting the professional market. They knew that. So what do they do? They release FCX gasoline to pour on that fire.
I am not sure how anyone could not consider FCX's launch a complete failure. Over time, it will probably get fixed but there is no doubt Apple will have lost a lot of video professionals by the time that happens and they won't come back.
-kpluck
Yeah but it took what, 3 years, for them to fix it? Apple doesn't live in a vacuum. There have been grumblings for awhile that Apple was neglecting the professional market. They knew that. So what do they do? They release FCX gasoline to pour on that fire.
This is analogues to the iPhone. When the iPhone was first introduced there was nothing like it. Still people complained that it did not have this or that. The reason it did not have this or that is because Apple was building something completely new that no one else had ever done before.
The iPhone didn't need to be fixed - it wasn't broken. It was being developed.
Its the same with iMove and FCP X. They are completely new products. They aren't broken per se, they are being further developed. Its like saying FCP version 1 was broken in comparison to FCP version 7.
I am not sure how anyone could not consider FCX's launch a complete failure.
How are you measuring failure? In business terms failure is measured by sales not by a bunch of cackling on internet blogs. From all indications FCP X has sold very well.
Over time, it will probably get fixed but there is no doubt Apple will have lost a lot of video professionals by the time that happens and they won't come back.
To give you some perspective on FCP in the video market. Video equipment manufacturers are making equipment with Quick Time and Apple Pro Res codecs built into the equipment so that they can easily create video that can be edited immediately in FCP. This is being done to some degree for Avid, Avid has also had to support Pro Res because its such a widely used codec. But this isn't being done to the same degree for any other NLE.
This 45% boost for Adobe Premiere Pro likely means they went from hardly any sales to actually a few sales. Likely hardly a dent in the FCP user base.
This is on a maxed-out iMac 27 3.4 GHz I7, 16GB RAM
-- I have about 60 Safari windows, 12 0pen, 1 with 20 tabs.
-- No Safari windows using Flash are open, so Flash isn't doing anything.
-- FCPX isn't doing anything either.
-- but FCPX isn't doing anything a lot more efficiently than Flash isn't doing anything
As I understand it, one of the reason FCPX performs so well is that it uses AVFoundation -- and, AVFoundation was developed for iOS, then ported back to Mac OS X.
I don't know if Adobe plans to (or can) take advantage of this technology in Flash and their Pro A/V tools.
Introducing AV Foundation and the future of QuickTime [Updated]
Its the same with iMove and FCP X. They are completely new products. They aren't broken per se, they are being further developed. Its like saying FCP version 1 was broken in comparison to FCP version 7.
Really? FCP X replaced FCP 7. Which Apple product did the iPhone replace?
Really? FCP X replaced FCP 7. Which Apple product did the iPhone replace?
You know as well as any of us that FCPX didn't replace FCP 7!
I think Apple totally misread and mishandled the situation.
But, there are enough respected pros who realize that :
-- the game is just beginning
-- post is evolving rather quickly
-- NLE software, FCP 7 in particular, doesn't even exploit current technology
-- technology offers the potential to remove/reduce the tedium and allow the pro to concentrate on story telling
I believe that the goals of FCPX are to address the above, and provide a basis for the next decade of editing and a whole new breed of "pros".
FCPX is off to a rocky start -- and Apple burned some bridges...
Now, what remains is for Apple to deliver on the [unfulfilled] promises of FCPX.
... I am betting that they will!
Hey, Apple -- this would be a really good month to provide the 1st FCPX update -- and get off that .0 release level. (One of the promises of FCPX is that it will be easier to upgrade it more frequently).
Really? FCP X replaced FCP 7. Which Apple product did the iPhone replace?
It took MONEY (engineers don't come cheap), original thinking, RE-thinking the problem space, time, and even annoyed some monkey editors...
Why couldn't they just pile a few new features on an the same old bloated program and sell it as a brand new version?
It sure works for Adobe...
It's only been 2 1/2 months since FCP X was released. How fast do people make big decisions like this? Final Cut Studio was still in the hands of professionals and now it's available again. It's not like Apple took it away from them.
Well, people making changes like those are not professionals.
Professionals editing studios don't change software for years, let alone jump platform in 3 months...
Maybe Apple should have come out with two versions of Final Cut 10. The first being Final Cut Pro that is like the older version (interface familiar) and just plain Final Cut for the general consumer with the new interface. Maybe that would be the way to go. I am sure Steve has voiced his opinion to the department that came out with the 10 version.
It's not the interface that's the problem - it's the missing features, and the non-compatibility with the old version, so old footage can't be re-used for new projects. The features will apparently (mostly) be added later, but the non-compatibility won't be fixed.
I won't deny FCPX's shortcomings, and people are going to continue to enjoy ragging on it in the near term, but every time I use it I find more really smart thinking at the core of the program.
It's not ready for everyone yet, but I see the problems of FCPX as more of a mismanagement of customer expectations than a technical one. There's too much great stuff going on in this program for it to be considered a failure by any reasonable person.
People will laugh now, but I'm not sure they'll be laughing so hard in a year or two.
That's what people said about Shake - Apple was coming up with something great (called Phenomenon if memory serves me right). Apple has abandoned the Pro market. I don't begrudge them that - I just wish they would come out and say it and we can all move on. Truthfully, we have already moved on to Adobe for a replacement to FCP and I am starting to look around for an alternative to Logic Pro as that has not received a significant update in years.