Samsung's filed a unique patent for a tablet design, and one that I hope we see. Current 10" tablets aren't the most convenient to tote around. Unfortunate since they're intended as mobile devices. Samsung's designed around that, with a foldable tablet with a flexible full size screen. And yes, Samsung already has a foldable/flexible screen patented and shown too.
All of Apple's numbers are sell-through, not 80-90%. they have made that very clear, several times. . .
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
You've asked them how much they have in stock and what their sell through numbers are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
You've asked them how much they have in stock and what their sell through numbers are?
No, I wasn't asking anything about sell-thru vs. stock. Mel disagreed with something I had posted earlier, and I was just trying to get clarification from him.
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped. Those you see are not being reported as sell-through. Apple also reports weeks of inventory. In other words, based on how many units are being sold to users, they estimate how many weeks of supply are in the channel, meaning being shipped, and on store shelves. Two separate numbers. If you read Apple's financials you will see this. You will also know it if you listen in on their conference calls. It's very clear.
So if they say 9 million sold, it means that people have bought them. If they say there's 3 weeks in the channel, it means that there is enough to supply retailers with enough for 3 weeks of sales to customers.
No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped. Those you see are not being reported as sell-through. Apple also reports weeks of inventory. In other words, based on how many units are being sold to users, they estimate how many weeks of supply are in the channel, meaning being shipped, and on store shelves. Two separate numbers. If you read Apple's financials you will see this. You will also know it if you listen in on their conference calls. It's very clear.
So if they say 9 million sold, it means that people have bought them. If they say there's 3 weeks in the channel, it means that there is enough to supply retailers with enough for 3 weeks of sales to customers.
Ah, thanks for that. So do you know how they're counted? Device activations or something else?
So then Apple will announce the total iPads they have for sale and the number they sold to consumers at the next quarters conference call. I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly now. As you can see I don't listen to conference calls as a rule. Last one I listened in on was Garmin and that was sometime last year.
Ah, thanks for that. So do you know how they're counted? Device activations or something else?
I would imagine it's done the old fashioned way, the way I did it with my companies. You know how many you sell. That's a given. Your distributers tell you how many went to their customers, the retailers. The retailers report sales on a monthly basis, or for some fast moving products, on a weekly basis.
You don't need to know activations to get the numbers. All companies know the numbers shortly after the quarter is over, or month, or week. It's really not a big deal, it's been done for over a century, maybe two.
You can use activations to double check the numbers to see if what is bought is being used. For example, during holiday seasons, many things are bought as gifts, but many people receiving those gifts don't start using them for days, or even weeks. So the numbers may not jibe.
I would imagine it's done the old fashioned way, the way I did it with my companies. You know how many you sell. That's a given. Your distributers tell you how many went to their customers, the retailers. The retailers report sales on a monthly basis, or for some fast moving products, on a weekly basis.
You don't need to know activations to get the numbers. All companies know the numbers shortly after the quarter is over, or month, or week. It's really not a big deal, it's been done for over a century, maybe two.
You can use activations to double check the numbers to see if what is bought is being used. For example, during holiday seasons, many things are bought as gifts, but many people receiving those gifts don't start using them for days, or even weeks. So the numbers may not jibe.
So you don't know how Apple is counting then. No biggie. I didn't know if Apple had stated how they count units sold at some point.
There's no shame in saying "I don't know for sure". It's not an insult, even if you wish to take it that way.
It's your response that's the problem. I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
It's your response that's the problem. I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
The difference is the Courier (and Sony's new clamshell design) has two distinct screens with a bezel separating them. Not so with Samsung's idea, with uses a flexible screen that spans the entire width in one continuous display.
I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
Ok, 10 minutes of research found the answer. From Apple themselves:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped.For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit).
So now everyone has a reference for how Apple really counts sales: Generally shipped to a reseller is a sale, same as everyone else does. To an on-line customer, not counted until it arrives since Apple is responsible if it doesn't arrive in good condition (or at all).
Ok, 10 minutes of research found the answer. From Apple themselves:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped.For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit).
That pretty much agrees with what I said, if you read the entire article, which explains the plane to Walmart concept, where Walmart knows how many it's selling almost as soon as it's sold, and that the items on the plane will be sold as soon as they come in. And as the article clearly states, Apple receives the transaction info from the retailer about each sale. You just took parts of the article. You need to read the entire thing to understand what was said here.
As I said, Apple receives this info on a weekly to a monthly basic.
Yeah that sounds like a feasible technology that will be available and affordable any time soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
The difference is the Courier (and Sony's new clamshell design) has two distinct screens with a bezel separating them. Not so with Samsung's idea, with uses a flexible screen that spans the entire width in one continuous display.
That pretty much agrees with what I said, if you read the entire article, which explains the plane to Walmart concept, where Walmart knows how many it's selling almost as soon as it's sold, and that the items on the plane will be sold as soon as they come in. And as the article clearly states, Apple receives the transaction info from the retailer about each sale. You just took parts of the article. You need to read the entire thing to understand what was said here.
Not what you said at all Mel, which is clear to anyone reading your responses. I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight on this. You didn't know. Heck, I didn't know, that's why I asked. Apple had the answer. It just took a few minutes of research to find it.
In the end, my original statement was probably pretty darn close. 80-90% of Apple's stated sales are actually in consumer hands, or sell-thru, with the remainder in retailer warehouses or on store shelves.
Not what you said at all Mel, which is clear to anyone reading your responses. I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight on this. You didn't know. Heck, I didn't know, that's why I asked. Apple had the answer. It just took a few minutes of research to find it.
In the end, my original statement was probably pretty darn close. 80-90% of Apple's stated sales are actually in consumer hands, or sell-thru, with the remainder in retailer warehouses or on store shelves.
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this, you are. And most of it does repeat what I said. In addition. Both Jobs and Cook, during the financial calls, which are legal documents, in case you don't know, have said that Apple counts sales as sell through to the end buyer of the device. They have never been called out on that, and you can read MANY articles in the financial press stating that Apple is the only company stating actual sales.
If that's not good enough for you, then too bad!
And no, you are completely wrong, it's not 80-90%, it's just as Apple says-100%. Suck on it if you must.
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this, you are. And most of it does repeat what I said. In addition. Both Jobs and Cook, during the financial calls, which are legal documents, in case you don't know, have said that Apple counts sales as sell through to the end buyer of the device. They have never been called out on that, and you can read MANY articles in the financial press stating that Apple is the only company stating actual sales.
If that's not good enough for you, then too bad!
And no, you are completely wrong, it's not 80-90%, it's just as Apple says-100%. Suck on it if you must.
Why the angry act? Your were simply incorrect in how you thought Apple tabulates sales and revenue. This entire exchange happened because you thought you should say I was wrong, wrong on my original 80-90% sell-thru statement.
"No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped."
Rather than accept your admonishment as the final word, I researched it further, even tho you implied there was no proof. There was.
Their 10-K is the legal document filed with the SEC, which includes the explanation how they count revenue, not some undefined statement made on a stage (if it was made at all). You know that Mel.
I'm not stating an opinion on how I think they count sales as you did (and then went on to say definitively "I'm telling you how it's done"). I posted a fact, with Apple's own documents stating shipment to a reseller is generally considered title transfer and counted as a sale for reporting purposes.
"For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped."
Yet for you to be right you'd claim that Apple's disclaimer included in their required SEC filing is wrong, not you. If you have proof of that, post it, just as I posted Apple's proof.
Otherwise, "OK, thanks"
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
Comments
Microsoft Courier
Samsung's filed a unique patent for a tablet design, and one that I hope we see. Current 10" tablets aren't the most convenient to tote around. Unfortunate since they're intended as mobile devices. Samsung's designed around that, with a foldable tablet with a flexible full size screen. And yes, Samsung already has a foldable/flexible screen patented and shown too.
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...om-apples.html
All of Apple's numbers are sell-through, not 80-90%. they have made that very clear, several times. . .
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
You've asked them how much they have in stock and what their sell through numbers are?
No, I wasn't asking anything about sell-thru vs. stock. Mel disagreed with something I had posted earlier, and I was just trying to get clarification from him.
Mel, if they're all sold, why do I see iPad's at my local Verizon store, and at WalMart? I assume they're also in stock, still unsold, at Best Buy and Apple Stores. I understand that Apple doesn't own them anymore, since they're sold to a retailer/reseller, but they're not sold in the sense that they're in a consumer's hands.
No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped. Those you see are not being reported as sell-through. Apple also reports weeks of inventory. In other words, based on how many units are being sold to users, they estimate how many weeks of supply are in the channel, meaning being shipped, and on store shelves. Two separate numbers. If you read Apple's financials you will see this. You will also know it if you listen in on their conference calls. It's very clear.
So if they say 9 million sold, it means that people have bought them. If they say there's 3 weeks in the channel, it means that there is enough to supply retailers with enough for 3 weeks of sales to customers.
No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped. Those you see are not being reported as sell-through. Apple also reports weeks of inventory. In other words, based on how many units are being sold to users, they estimate how many weeks of supply are in the channel, meaning being shipped, and on store shelves. Two separate numbers. If you read Apple's financials you will see this. You will also know it if you listen in on their conference calls. It's very clear.
So if they say 9 million sold, it means that people have bought them. If they say there's 3 weeks in the channel, it means that there is enough to supply retailers with enough for 3 weeks of sales to customers.
Ah, thanks for that. So do you know how they're counted? Device activations or something else?
So then Apple will announce the total iPads they have for sale and the number they sold to consumers at the next quarters conference call. I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly now. As you can see I don't listen to conference calls as a rule. Last one I listened in on was Garmin and that was sometime last year.
Ah, thanks for that. So do you know how they're counted? Device activations or something else?
I would imagine it's done the old fashioned way, the way I did it with my companies. You know how many you sell. That's a given. Your distributers tell you how many went to their customers, the retailers. The retailers report sales on a monthly basis, or for some fast moving products, on a weekly basis.
You don't need to know activations to get the numbers. All companies know the numbers shortly after the quarter is over, or month, or week. It's really not a big deal, it's been done for over a century, maybe two.
You can use activations to double check the numbers to see if what is bought is being used. For example, during holiday seasons, many things are bought as gifts, but many people receiving those gifts don't start using them for days, or even weeks. So the numbers may not jibe.
I would imagine it's done the old fashioned way, the way I did it with my companies. You know how many you sell. That's a given. Your distributers tell you how many went to their customers, the retailers. The retailers report sales on a monthly basis, or for some fast moving products, on a weekly basis.
You don't need to know activations to get the numbers. All companies know the numbers shortly after the quarter is over, or month, or week. It's really not a big deal, it's been done for over a century, maybe two.
You can use activations to double check the numbers to see if what is bought is being used. For example, during holiday seasons, many things are bought as gifts, but many people receiving those gifts don't start using them for days, or even weeks. So the numbers may not jibe.
So you don't know how Apple is counting then. No biggie. I didn't know if Apple had stated how they count units sold at some point.
So you don't know how Apple is counting then. No biggie. I didn't know if Apple had stated how they count units sold at some point.
Well, yes, I pretty well do know, you just want to take a negative tack.
Well, yes, I pretty well do know, you just want to take a negative tack.
It's your response that's the problem. I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
It's your response that's the problem. I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
OK thanks.
This isn't new.
Microsoft Courier
The difference is the Courier (and Sony's new clamshell design) has two distinct screens with a bezel separating them. Not so with Samsung's idea, with uses a flexible screen that spans the entire width in one continuous display.
I'm telling you how it's done. Can I prove Apple does it that way? Of course not. But I would be pretty surprised if they didn't.
So your response that I don't know is fatuous, and intended to be belittling. You didn't even have to respond, but you did. Or you could have just said; "Ok, thanks".
Ok, 10 minutes of research found the answer. From Apple themselves:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit).
So now everyone has a reference for how Apple really counts sales: Generally shipped to a reseller is a sale, same as everyone else does. To an on-line customer, not counted until it arrives since Apple is responsible if it doesn't arrive in good condition (or at all).
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1Y3wBFhtF
Ok, 10 minutes of research found the answer. From Apple themselves:
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
An iPad on a freight plane headed to a Walmart warehouse is no longer counted as an iPad in Apple’s inventory, instead it is counted as an iPad in Walmart’s inventory. Apple is able to recognize that iPad as sold and recognize the accompanying revenue (and profit).
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1Y3wBFhtF
That pretty much agrees with what I said, if you read the entire article, which explains the plane to Walmart concept, where Walmart knows how many it's selling almost as soon as it's sold, and that the items on the plane will be sold as soon as they come in. And as the article clearly states, Apple receives the transaction info from the retailer about each sale. You just took parts of the article. You need to read the entire thing to understand what was said here.
As I said, Apple receives this info on a weekly to a monthly basic.
The difference is the Courier (and Sony's new clamshell design) has two distinct screens with a bezel separating them. Not so with Samsung's idea, with uses a flexible screen that spans the entire width in one continuous display.
That pretty much agrees with what I said, if you read the entire article, which explains the plane to Walmart concept, where Walmart knows how many it's selling almost as soon as it's sold, and that the items on the plane will be sold as soon as they come in. And as the article clearly states, Apple receives the transaction info from the retailer about each sale. You just took parts of the article. You need to read the entire thing to understand what was said here.
Not what you said at all Mel, which is clear to anyone reading your responses. I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight on this. You didn't know. Heck, I didn't know, that's why I asked. Apple had the answer. It just took a few minutes of research to find it.
In the end, my original statement was probably pretty darn close. 80-90% of Apple's stated sales are actually in consumer hands, or sell-thru, with the remainder in retailer warehouses or on store shelves.
Yeah that sounds like a feasible technology that will be available and affordable any time soon.
They've already invented the display, produced it and demo'd it. Quite some months ago as a matter of fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2nG9qy6vs
Not what you said at all Mel, which is clear to anyone reading your responses. I don't know why you're trying to pick a fight on this. You didn't know. Heck, I didn't know, that's why I asked. Apple had the answer. It just took a few minutes of research to find it.
In the end, my original statement was probably pretty darn close. 80-90% of Apple's stated sales are actually in consumer hands, or sell-thru, with the remainder in retailer warehouses or on store shelves.
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this, you are. And most of it does repeat what I said. In addition. Both Jobs and Cook, during the financial calls, which are legal documents, in case you don't know, have said that Apple counts sales as sell through to the end buyer of the device. They have never been called out on that, and you can read MANY articles in the financial press stating that Apple is the only company stating actual sales.
If that's not good enough for you, then too bad!
And no, you are completely wrong, it's not 80-90%, it's just as Apple says-100%. Suck on it if you must.
I'm not trying to pick a fight on this, you are. And most of it does repeat what I said. In addition. Both Jobs and Cook, during the financial calls, which are legal documents, in case you don't know, have said that Apple counts sales as sell through to the end buyer of the device. They have never been called out on that, and you can read MANY articles in the financial press stating that Apple is the only company stating actual sales.
If that's not good enough for you, then too bad!
And no, you are completely wrong, it's not 80-90%, it's just as Apple says-100%. Suck on it if you must.
Why the angry act? Your were simply incorrect in how you thought Apple tabulates sales and revenue. This entire exchange happened because you thought you should say I was wrong, wrong on my original 80-90% sell-thru statement.
"No, no! Apple reports sell-through, not shipped."
Rather than accept your admonishment as the final word, I researched it further, even tho you implied there was no proof. There was.
Their 10-K is the legal document filed with the SEC, which includes the explanation how they count revenue, not some undefined statement made on a stage (if it was made at all). You know that Mel.
I'm not stating an opinion on how I think they count sales as you did (and then went on to say definitively "I'm telling you how it's done"). I posted a fact, with Apple's own documents stating shipment to a reseller is generally considered title transfer and counted as a sale for reporting purposes.
"For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped."
Yet for you to be right you'd claim that Apple's disclaimer included in their required SEC filing is wrong, not you. If you have proof of that, post it, just as I posted Apple's proof.
Otherwise, "OK, thanks"
“(Apple) recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of (Apple)’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, (Apple) defers revenue until the customer receives the product because (Apple) legally retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit.”
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1Y6g53gHK