Apple's Xcode supports quad-core ARM CPUs for future iPhones, iPads

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  • Reply 21 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    iOS is not a "tablet OS",



    Never said it was. DID say that it doesn't work in a traditional computing format.



    Quote:

    so an ARM laptop would run iOS



    I'd never buy one. That's not how anyone would want to use that OS. Apple even covered that.



  • Reply 22 of 56
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    I don't agree with that. There are big UI differences between iOS and OS X.



    iOS is clearly made to be a touch screen UI. OS X is clearly made to be a keyboard mouse UI . The two over lap is some areas but are not really interchangeable.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    iOS is not a "tablet OS", it's the version of OS X that runs on ARM processors -- iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, currently -- so an ARM laptop would run iOS, perhaps wit ha new UI layer we haven't yet seen, or perhaps with an iPad-like UI.



  • Reply 23 of 56
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Many people buy Mac Books because they can do Windows emulation free. This is a big deal for those running old legacy software.



    Times do change and I believe that Apple has something up it's sleeve. However I can't see them calling the devices Mac Books. This would lead to all sorts of problems. Rather I expect them to market them as an enhanced iOS device. Oh they are very likely to be much cheaper than $800 as they won't be even remotely competitive with Intel hardware in that price range.



    Look at how they have handled iPods, they won't kill Intel based Mac Books until sales wane. To much money to be made especially when you are the market leader.



    It seems many here think Apple is retiring the MacBook line in favour of MacBook Air and MacBook Pro lines. I don't see how that makes sense.



    While I would expect them to offer x86_64-based MacBooks if they did reinvent the line with ARM chips running iOS with Aqua UI at a much lower price range that still yielded a healthy profit the one thing these new machines could be without is BootCamp access.
  • Reply 24 of 56
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I don't agree with that. There are big UI differences between iOS and OS X.



    iOS is clearly made to be a touch screen UI. OS X is clearly made to be a keyboard mouse UI . The two over lap is some areas but are not really interchangeable.



    OS X is the blanket OS that Mac OS and iOS share. Mac OS has Aqua for the UI, whilst iOS has two current UIs, CocoaTouch for the iPod, iPhone and iPad, and the AppleTV UI. Within CocoaTouch there are two UI designs, one for the iPod and iPhone, and one for the iPad.
  • Reply 25 of 56
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Alright I agree with that. I was reacting to the push that all of them are eventually going to be combined.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    OS X is the blanket OS that Mac OS and iOS share. Mac OS has Aqua for the UI, whilst iOS has two current UIs, CocoaTouch for the iPod, iPhone and iPad, and the AppleTV UI. Within CocoaTouch there are two UI designs, one for the iPod and iPhone, and one for the iPad.



  • Reply 26 of 56
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    That proves that Apple's A4 and A5 PoP/SoCs are custom chips. Kotatsu is arguing they are off-the-shelf with zero, zilch, nada modifications.



    Of course there are some modifications, but essentially the CPU and GPU are off the shelf. Apple package them together into their own System on a Chip, but what's



    That's not a bad thing. There's no reason to custom design hardware any more when there are perfectly good chips ready for use. Makes life much easier for developers too.
  • Reply 27 of 56
    Hardly.

    What is inevitable is Macs with SoCs. Intel has indicated they would let Apple make custom intel based SoCs (with no restrictions on the GPU element.) For powerful mobile laptops, this makes much more sense for Apple than moving Macs to ARM and all it entails. Apple will continue to design products so they are simple, similar, but most of all, appropriately suited to their function.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post


    ARM-based MacBooks are absolutely inevitable. It's not a matter of "if." It's a matter of "when."



    The advantages of a cool-running, energy-efficient ARM chip on, say, a MacBook Air far outweigh the disadvantages. Just a few of the many immediate advantages: longer battery life, no need for a cooling fan, smaller enclosures, lower cost.



    The one disadvantage: no Windows (or possibly slow emulation.) Well so what. Apple could still sell legacy Intel-based desktops and laptops alongside its ARM-based MacBook Air. The vast majority of Mac users don't run windows on their Macs.



    The ARM-based MacBook Air (or whatever it will be called) will be aimed at the consumer market. The consumer market is price-sensitive. And using ARM-based A6 or A7 designs in a laptop will allow Apple to lower the price of the low-end MacBook Air while still maintaining their 30% margin. No need to pay off-the-shelf prices for legacy Intel chips.



    Just imagine how well a $799 MacBook Air would sell. The Ultrabook wannabes won't be able to match the price. Times change.



  • Reply 28 of 56
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    To some degree their is no such thing as off the shelf ARM processors. As ARM simply licenses the designs and the chip manufacturers are free to do whatever they want with the designs.



    The reason Apple's chips are custom is because their chips are only manufactured for them. No one else uses Apple's particular chip designs but Apple.



    The reason Apple customizes its own chips is because they are able to optimize the OS and chip to work together much more efficiently. That is the reason the iPhone has so much better battery life in a thinner phone than any other smart phone. Also the reason why iOS does not require 1GB of RAM.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Of course there are some modifications, but essentially the CPU and GPU are off the shelf. Apple package them together into their own System on a Chip, but what's



    That's not a bad thing. There's no reason to custom design hardware any more when there are perfectly good chips ready for use. Makes life much easier for developers too.



  • Reply 29 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Of course there are some modifications, but essentially the CPU and GPU are off the shelf. Apple package them together into their own System on a Chip, but what's



    That's not a bad thing. There's no reason to custom design hardware any more when there are perfectly good chips ready for use. Makes life much easier for developers too.



    On the contrary.

    Apple customizes their chips more than you think, and for good reason. Apple's custom chips combined with their proprietary software make their final products impossible to copy or emulate in any meaningful way.
  • Reply 30 of 56
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    If these were Samsung's designs with minor modifications then how is Apple able to move its ARM chip manufacturing from Samsung to TSMC?



    these new ones are Marvell based but still ARM. they are dumping samsung for marvell. since each ARM CPU is a bit different from the rest apple is tweaking their compiler to produce good code rather than just "standards" code. it's not like PPC/x86/ARM differences
  • Reply 31 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    This will be more or less the same SOC in the Playstation Vita. Not sure why Apple chips are always called 'custom designed' as they're the same ARM and Power VR components many other manufacturers use.



    Just because it has 'Quad Core' and 'Power VR' written on the spec sheet does not make it the same chip. What about the RAM? Memory Controller? ALU? Number of Transistors? Clock Frequency? Address Bus? Interconnect Speed?



    See where I am going with this?





    EDIT: Oh, one more thing. "ARM" isn't a "component", its a specification for an instruction set and a member of the RISC family of Instruction sets.

    ARM = Advanced RISC Machine

    RISC = Reduced Instruction Set Computer
  • Reply 32 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    I'd never buy one. That's not how anyone would want to use that OS. Apple even covered that.







    I've actually used a horizontal facing touch screen computer. I have never reached for a mouse faster in my life.



    Edit: I mean Vertical
  • Reply 33 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    I've actually used a horizontal facing touch screen computer. I have never reached for a mouse faster in my life.



    Do you mean vertical?
  • Reply 34 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Do you mean vertical?



    yes that



    Can you tell I've been at work all day?
  • Reply 35 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    yes that



    Can you tell I've been at work all day?



    Somewhat.



    To be fair, I wouldn't necessarily want a completely horizontal touchscreen, either. Something at the same angle as the Apple Keyboard would be best. You can put the computer hardware in the wedge underneath made by the angle of the screen.



    Boom, new desktop paradigm.
  • Reply 36 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post


    these new ones are Marvell based but still ARM. they are dumping samsung for marvell.



    Er, no.



    Since the A5, and arguably the A4, Apple's iOS SoCs are their own. Yes, they license designs and masks from ARMH and PowerVR, but the design is their own. For the A5, they currently contract the fab to Samsung. For 2012? It looks like TSMC is fabbing the A6 and maybe even a rev of the A5.



    Marvel may contract out their fab to TSMC or maybe it is Global Foundries, who knows, but they too license from ARMH. The Armada XP doesn't even have an on-die GPU. Suffice it to say, such a SoC is not destined for any Apple computer. Maybe a router/server thing, but without a GPU, it isn't going into any iOS device or personal computer.
  • Reply 37 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Somewhat.



    To be fair, I wouldn't necessarily want a completely horizontal touchscreen, either. Something at the same angle as the Apple Keyboard would be best. You can put the computer hardware in the wedge underneath made by the angle of the screen.



    Boom, new desktop paradigm.



    I spend all day infront of a terminal window, I believe it is draining me of all my brain power. One day I'll forget up from down and get in bed to leave for work.



    Something at the same angle as Apple's keyboard? You mean something like this? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-x_7AM9iMFJ...over-stand.jpg



    But really, I've used a vertical touch screen (i used to have an Acer Iconia W500 in a stand) and it was awkward at best. Plus my arm very nearly fell off. Even using my iPad standing vertically drives me batty.



    I don't think a new paradigm would evolve, just a more finger friendly skin for already existing GUIs such as the version of Finder in Lion or the Unity Desktop in Ubuntu 11.04.
  • Reply 38 of 56
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Never said it was. DID say that it doesn't work in a traditional computing format.







    I'd never buy one. That's not how anyone would want to use that OS. Apple even covered that.



    iOS also doesn't mean touch screen, it simply means ARM based, not arm based.
  • Reply 39 of 56
    al_bundyal_bundy Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shrike View Post


    Er, no.



    Since the A5, and arguably the A4, Apple's iOS SoCs are their own. Yes, they license designs and masks from ARMH and PowerVR, but the design is their own. For the A5, they currently contract the fab to Samsung. For 2012? It looks like TSMC is fabbing the A6 and maybe even a rev of the A5.



    Marvel may contract out their fab to TSMC or maybe it is Global Foundries, who knows, but they too license from ARMH. The Armada XP doesn't even have an on-die GPU. Suffice it to say, such a SoC is not destined for any Apple computer. Maybe a router/server thing, but without a GPU, it isn't going into any iOS device or personal computer.





    when the original ipad came out people looked at the A4 and saw that it was a Samsung SoC with some apple modifications. it has been well documented. the people at apple are fairly smart and know that you don't have to reinvent the wheel every single time to please the iCult with the NIH attitude



    A4 doesn't have a GPU either. the RAM and GPU go into a single package kind of like the original intel i core CPU's
  • Reply 40 of 56
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bluedalmatian View Post


    Could be true though actually.



    I would expect they probably meant reduce battery consumption.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post


    ARM-based MacBooks are absolutely inevitable. It's not a matter of "if." It's a matter of "when."



    The advantages of a cool-running, energy-efficient ARM chip on, say, a MacBook Air far outweigh the disadvantages. Just a few of the many immediate advantages: longer battery life, no need for a cooling fan, smaller enclosures, lower cost.



    The one disadvantage: no Windows (or possibly slow emulation.) Well so what. Apple could still sell legacy Intel-based desktops and laptops alongside its ARM-based MacBook Air. The vast majority of Mac users don't run windows on their Macs.



    The ARM-based MacBook Air (or whatever it will be called) will be aimed at the consumer market. The consumer market is price-sensitive. And using ARM-based A6 or A7 designs in a laptop will allow Apple to lower the price of the low-end MacBook Air while still maintaining their 30% margin. No need to pay off-the-shelf prices for legacy Intel chips.



    Just imagine how well a $799 MacBook Air would sell. The Ultrabook wannabes won't be able to match the price. Times change.



    I don't know if that's a sufficient argument to say it's inevitable. It's a decent argument for why they should do it, but I don't know if it's totally convincing.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Many people buy Mac Books because they can do Windows emulation free. This is a big deal for those running old legacy software.



    This isn't much of an argument against. I just don't think the typical Air buyers are running Windows on them.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    iOS is not a "tablet OS", it's the version of OS X that runs on ARM processors -- iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, currently -- so an ARM laptop would run iOS, perhaps wit ha new UI layer we haven't yet seen, or perhaps with an iPad-like UI.



    In my opinion, that doesn't sufficiently explain how it's not a tablet OS, everything about it has been retuned for Apple's tablet devices. The AppleTV part is kind of an outlier, a stripped-down and reworked version of a stripped-down and retuned OS.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


    Just because it has 'Quad Core' and 'Power VR' written on the spec sheet does not make it the same chip. What about the RAM? Memory Controller? ALU? Number of Transistors? Clock Frequency? Address Bus? Interconnect Speed?



    See where I am going with this?



    EDIT: Oh, one more thing. "ARM" isn't a "component", its a specification for an instruction set and a member of the RISC family of Instruction sets.

    ARM = Advanced RISC Machine

    RISC = Reduced Instruction Set Computer



    But Apple bought more than a specification, more than an instruction set, they bought the IP rights to use various core designs. How they tie it into a mask design is up to the engineers trying to fulfill given requirements. So while it isn't a discrete physical object, it is a component of a mask design.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Somewhat.



    To be fair, I wouldn't necessarily want a completely horizontal touchscreen, either. Something at the same angle as the Apple Keyboard would be best. You can put the computer hardware in the wedge underneath made by the angle of the screen.



    Boom, new desktop paradigm.



    I've suggested something like this in the past, but people seemed to ignore it for the most part, maybe because it's not commonly used. Horizontal and vertical touch screens both have their issues for desk use. Personally, I'd like to see a drafting table metaphor. You can adjust the height and angle of drafting tables to fit the task at hand.
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