And that highlights exactly why Jobs is important to the gaming industry. There were too many people like you who think that only super-deluxe high-end shootemup games are the only thing that matters. Your use of 'good games' suggests that you're entirely incapable of the concept that something can be a good game without requiring 100 fps on a 2 GB teratexel video card.
It's much like the introduction of the Wii. before Wii, the game console business was all about "our console is faster than last year's - and faster than the competition". Wii showed that it's possible to have a fun gaming experience by focusing on the EXPERIENCE rather than the specs. The iPhone does the same thing - it completely changes the paradigm.
Now, just as Wii didn't put PS3 and XBox out of business, the iPhone isn't going to kill your type of video games. It's simply an alternative which many people will choose.
You assume too much. Read the comment I quoted and read my response again.
I actually own a Wii. I think Nintendo make a bunch of fantasic games... probably some of the best in this console generation.
With the Wii Nintendo brought something new, innovative and fun to the market. However, most importantly, they still brought the games.
Artists, designers, writers, voice actors, directors and more joined to create multi-million dollar immersive productions more than just simple games.
When I say "good games" I don't mean, "games running at 1080p 100 fps", I mean "good games".
Think of it this way. Let say there are 50 million Xbox's out there and maybe 50% of those play Halo. Vs 100 million iOS devices and 50% of them play Angry birds.
Halo cost $59
AB cost $.99
Which cost more to develop?
Which cost more to support?
In the end game makers want to make money. Making money is sales - cost = profit
"One DS game alone has generated over one fifth of the revenue generated for developers by the entire App Store over the course of its history (Oh and that includes all non game Apps as well)"
Also, this:
Quote:
The survey of 1,000 people working in the industry
Yes, people working in the mobile (mostly iOS) industry.
I'll never understand how gamers think that a handful of clunky buttons compares with the potential of a device that responds to tilt, orientation, touch, sound, global position, etc etc.
Buttons compare very favorably to those things. Depends on the game, of course.
Orientation, global position? Yeah, because those sure make up for the lack of proper gaming controls...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepro
But, you have to also consider that it probably takes 100 times as many man hours creating Halo. So, if in that same time you could make 100 Angry Birds type games, then the equation becomes much different.
...drowning the market with cheap games, meaning that most people will never see most of those games.
Only a handful of successful games will have significant sales.
Apple changed the industry by opening it up to more developers. There used to be a high entry fee to make money in the gaming world.
Nope. Mobile games had existed for ages before the iPhone arrived. Look up sites like GetJar with their Java games for ancient phones.
Quote:
You need only look at the size of the Appstore and Android market along with the fact that many developers are making real money. There are more developers for iOS and Android than there are for Nintendo DS and Sony PSP.
IMHO, if Apple offered the iphone and ipod touch in a gaming centric(tactile buttons) BTO(build to order), Nintendo's game boy and the psp and vita would be destroyed market wise.
Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
iPad as a platform will burst past Xbox360 and PS3 if current iPad growth rate is maintained:
But how many of those are bought for gaming? People are buying them to use as a phone, not a gaming platform.
Also, those graphs are extremely dishonest and misleading. Where is the Nintendo DS? Where is the Wii? And why iPad 1+2 and only one generation of the other consoles?
Ironically, my iPad crashed twice trying to respond. Well, here goes again.
I just finished Alan Wake. I think we should not get carried away with the platforms but embrace all the new outlets of what really matters: the creativity at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.
Whether it be Angry Birds, ShootEmzAllUp, Mass Effect 2 or FarmVille, I think we should recognise all these different forms.
Sure, there's money involved but with the good games you can see the industry as a totality is moving beyond older forms such as books, TV and movies. Personally, I think TV and movies will continue to struggle. But books and music are fairly timeless... And as for "interactive entertainment" the field is still wide open for talent, passion and execution.
Maybe it is how I grew up but it is amazing to see computer games become a real art form in its own right.
I'm not here to bash other platforms. All the observations I'm making are around a few points. Sony and Nintendo have reasonable products but I am concerned that their lack of profitability in recent times may hamper rewarding evolution of gaming platforms. Same with Xbox360. I like it, and like that I can play five-year old games without updating my graphics card and drivers.
I suppose what I am trying to highlight is iPad as the "dark horse" in the gaming space. I was enthralled by Cut The Rope On iPad and intrigued but somewhat let down by Dead Space on iPad. But put it simply, as another poster mentioned, imagine a slim piece of glass and aluminium that plays a wide range of all your favourite games, including, for arguments sake, Mass Effect 4... You can hook it up to your HDTV, take it with you on the bus, train or plane, or snuggle up in bed on a cold winter night. Throw in persistent 3G and 4G connectivity, and one can see the tremendous direction Apple is going in with iOS.
I'm not knocking anyone's choice of platform, for me I actually don't like to play games on iPhone except when I'm really bored or just need to kill time. Angry Birds is perfect for that. When I need a real good dose of gaming, I fire up my Xbox360. I've always been interested in graphics (see my username) and "spoiled" with PC graphics so I chose it over PS3 because of better graphics, slimmer profile, don't need BluRay and Kinect is more interesting than PS Move.
But whatever your preference, that's fine. I don't listen to pop music because it's just not my thing, I prefer Trance and Progressive.
Also, those graphs are extremely dishonest and misleading. Where is the Nintendo DS? Where is the Wii? And why iPad 1+2 and only one generation of the other consoles?
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area. I didn't want to split iPad 1+2 because the data is hard to obtain and it's only been a few years. I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
I have no outright agenda to say iPad is going to destroy everything in its part. But it is a major force. Could Mass Effect 2, Dead Space 1/2 and Alan Wake have been experienced on an iPad 1/2. Definitely not. Maybe not even the iPad 3. But, like I said, if Apple moves in the right direction the iPad 4/5 will fill the last missing gap in Apple's gaming offerings from Angry Birds through to Call Of Duty 10 or whatever. Yes, even the Mac will have a role though it will evolve too.
Whether it be Angry Birds, ShootEmzAllUp, Mass Effect 2 or FarmVille, I think we should recognise all these different forms.
This is an important point. Some types of games simply won't work well without dedicated gaming controls (buttons). But other types of games will play just fine on a touchscreen.
That's why there will always be a market for separate gaming systems (or maybe gaming hardware attachments for mobile phones?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area.
I don't think it has much potential there. The hardcore audience needs lots of buttons and such.
Quote:
I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
Why would you need to include the ipHone and iPod if you had included the Wii or the DS? Wii and DS are the best sellers in their respective console generations.
See, right now, I would love to grab Alan Wake on my iPad, chill in bed and listen to the soundtrack songs, rather than fire up the Xbox360 and sit in front of the TV.
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area. I didn't want to split iPad 1+2 because the data is hard to obtain and it's only been a few years. I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
I have no outright agenda to say iPad is going to destroy everything in its part. But it is a major force. Could Mass Effect 2, Dead Space 1/2 and Alan Wake have been experienced on an iPad 1/2. Definitely not. Maybe not even the iPad 3. But, like I said, if Apple moves in the right direction the iPad 4/5 will fill the last missing gap in Apple's gaming offerings from Angry Birds through to Call Of Duty 10 or whatever. Yes, even the Mac will have a role though it will evolve too.
The reason why the iPad has no chance to topple typical console gaming is because it evolves too fast. Console games like Call of Duty spend 2+ years in development, two years is a life time in mobile technology. Look at Apple, the 3GS is ancient compared to the 4s. Hell just even the iPad to the iPad, the leap in performance is that astounding. As a developer, you get stuck coding for multiple generations, and you have a platform that is, dare i say, fragmented.
I'm sure you'd like to see it, but its a pipe dream at best. For the iPad to be a gaming console, it has to have quality games, and i just dont see that truthfully ever happening.
Ah, but if you're a "REAL gamer", you always need the latest and greatest video console or PC. If someone comes out with a new video card that has a 20% higher frame rate, it's a must have - even at $500. At least, that's what all the game fanatics seem to say - and your reference to 'good games' confirms that. Lots of people are focused on specs.
Those real gamers you talk about are not console gamers, they are not the majority of gamers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Look at Wii. How long has it been without a change in performance? 5 years? And it's still selling - and people are buying lots of games. Similarly, people are able to play games on a 3 year old iPhone 3GS and enjoy the experience. It is, again, a paradigm shift. No one is ever suggesting that Doom Civilization Deathmatch Halo whatever is going to go away. It's simply a new option (low priced portable gaming) for the industry - and Apple largely led the way in that.
That is what I am trying to say, millions of people are happy with older hardware, that is the reason consoles sell, a Wii game now plays on a Wii purchases years ago. In five years from now you cannot guarantee that the latest and greatest iPad game will work on the iPad 1
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
No significant advantage? You mean the fact that you can pull it out of your backpack in an airplane to play a game at 30,000 feet isn't an advantage? Or the fact that the same device that does all of your remote computing allows you to play games without carrying an extra device isn't an advantage?
Excuse me? I have owned devices capable to mobile gaming for years, I have never played a game on a plane, including 20 hour flights, and having an iPad wouldn't change my mind in that area. As I have said, I don't see any advantage. And isn't an iPad an extra device?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
No one is suggesting that the iPhone will replace the xBox or PS3. It's simply an alternative. What part of that don't you understand?
I understand that, and I have been saying that throughout this thread, if you bothered to read the thread you would understand that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Oh, and btw, you know you've lost the argument when you have to start making up stupid numbers to try to defend your choice. There isn't a single iPad model which costs $1,000. If you were only going to use your iPad for gaming, the least expensive $499 model is all you'd need. Games are small enough that the extra storage capacity isn't needed and there'd be no reason for 3G.
Did I? Maybe you are the one that lost the argument because you don't know that more than one country in the world uses the dollar as their currency.
Of the 6 models of iPad 2 listed there, three are over $1000, one is $2 below that number, and one $51.
The other posters are telling me that the iPad can do everything, books, movies, games, to store all of these you need space, Apple refuses to allow memory cards, so you need a larger sized unit, the 32GB iPad is $949, the 64GB is $1099 which you need for these flights you tell me about.
And there is no reason for 3G? Excuse me, one minute you are saying I am blind for no seeing a need, then you tell me you don't need something else? Which one is it?
See, right now, I would love to grab Alan Wake on my iPad, chill in bed and listen to the soundtrack songs, rather than fire up the Xbox360 and sit in front of the TV.
Think of it this way. Let say there are 50 million Xbox's out there and maybe 50% of those play Halo. Vs 100 million iOS devices and 50% of them play Angry birds.
Halo cost $59
AB cost $.99
Which cost more to develop?
Which cost more to support?
In the end game makers want to make money. Making money is sales - cost = profit
But the competition on the iOS is so much greater, you're chances of having a hit game is better on a console than on iOS, did you know there's more games available for iOS than ALL console games combined, and by all I mean ALL, starting with the Atari
Comments
And that highlights exactly why Jobs is important to the gaming industry. There were too many people like you who think that only super-deluxe high-end shootemup games are the only thing that matters. Your use of 'good games' suggests that you're entirely incapable of the concept that something can be a good game without requiring 100 fps on a 2 GB teratexel video card.
It's much like the introduction of the Wii. before Wii, the game console business was all about "our console is faster than last year's - and faster than the competition". Wii showed that it's possible to have a fun gaming experience by focusing on the EXPERIENCE rather than the specs. The iPhone does the same thing - it completely changes the paradigm.
Now, just as Wii didn't put PS3 and XBox out of business, the iPhone isn't going to kill your type of video games. It's simply an alternative which many people will choose.
You assume too much. Read the comment I quoted and read my response again.
I actually own a Wii. I think Nintendo make a bunch of fantasic games... probably some of the best in this console generation.
With the Wii Nintendo brought something new, innovative and fun to the market. However, most importantly, they still brought the games.
Artists, designers, writers, voice actors, directors and more joined to create multi-million dollar immersive productions more than just simple games.
When I say "good games" I don't mean, "games running at 1080p 100 fps", I mean "good games".
So if that's the case, why's the Macintosh an absolute pariah as far as gaming goes?
Sure, now it's a little better, but you know what I mean.
And maybe this isn't the case for iPad, but, on the other hand, it's no PlayStation, either.
Think of it this way. Let say there are 50 million Xbox's out there and maybe 50% of those play Halo. Vs 100 million iOS devices and 50% of them play Angry birds.
Halo cost $59
AB cost $.99
Which cost more to develop?
Which cost more to support?
In the end game makers want to make money. Making money is sales - cost = profit
A better example:
"One DS game alone has generated over one fifth of the revenue generated for developers by the entire App Store over the course of its history (Oh and that includes all non game Apps as well)"
Also, this:
The survey of 1,000 people working in the industry
Yes, people working in the mobile (mostly iOS) industry.
Come on, this is just silly.
I'll never understand how gamers think that a handful of clunky buttons compares with the potential of a device that responds to tilt, orientation, touch, sound, global position, etc etc.
Buttons compare very favorably to those things. Depends on the game, of course.
Orientation, global position? Yeah, because those sure make up for the lack of proper gaming controls...
But, you have to also consider that it probably takes 100 times as many man hours creating Halo. So, if in that same time you could make 100 Angry Birds type games, then the equation becomes much different.
...drowning the market with cheap games, meaning that most people will never see most of those games.
Only a handful of successful games will have significant sales.
Now which ONE company has 100 game titles that are as popular as Angry birds?
Not 100 perhaps, but Nintendo sure does have a lot of popular games.
Apple changed the industry by opening it up to more developers. There used to be a high entry fee to make money in the gaming world.
Nope. Mobile games had existed for ages before the iPhone arrived. Look up sites like GetJar with their Java games for ancient phones.
You need only look at the size of the Appstore and Android market along with the fact that many developers are making real money. There are more developers for iOS and Android than there are for Nintendo DS and Sony PSP.
Aha? And how many of those are making good money?
Angry Birds exceeded 350 Million in games sold back in September. At $4.99 a sale you do the math.
You mean .99?
With sales like that it's clear that Halo won't compete.
Halo? Why not Super Mario Bros.? Or Wii Sports?
IMHO, if Apple offered the iphone and ipod touch in a gaming centric(tactile buttons) BTO(build to order), Nintendo's game boy and the psp and vita would be destroyed market wise.
Why?
iPad as a platform will burst past Xbox360 and PS3 if current iPad growth rate is maintained:
But how many of those are bought for gaming? People are buying them to use as a phone, not a gaming platform.
Also, those graphs are extremely dishonest and misleading. Where is the Nintendo DS? Where is the Wii? And why iPad 1+2 and only one generation of the other consoles?
I just finished Alan Wake. I think we should not get carried away with the platforms but embrace all the new outlets of what really matters: the creativity at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.
Whether it be Angry Birds, ShootEmzAllUp, Mass Effect 2 or FarmVille, I think we should recognise all these different forms.
Sure, there's money involved but with the good games you can see the industry as a totality is moving beyond older forms such as books, TV and movies. Personally, I think TV and movies will continue to struggle. But books and music are fairly timeless... And as for "interactive entertainment" the field is still wide open for talent, passion and execution.
Maybe it is how I grew up but it is amazing to see computer games become a real art form in its own right.
I'm not here to bash other platforms. All the observations I'm making are around a few points. Sony and Nintendo have reasonable products but I am concerned that their lack of profitability in recent times may hamper rewarding evolution of gaming platforms. Same with Xbox360. I like it, and like that I can play five-year old games without updating my graphics card and drivers.
I suppose what I am trying to highlight is iPad as the "dark horse" in the gaming space. I was enthralled by Cut The Rope On iPad and intrigued but somewhat let down by Dead Space on iPad. But put it simply, as another poster mentioned, imagine a slim piece of glass and aluminium that plays a wide range of all your favourite games, including, for arguments sake, Mass Effect 4... You can hook it up to your HDTV, take it with you on the bus, train or plane, or snuggle up in bed on a cold winter night. Throw in persistent 3G and 4G connectivity, and one can see the tremendous direction Apple is going in with iOS.
I'm not knocking anyone's choice of platform, for me I actually don't like to play games on iPhone except when I'm really bored or just need to kill time. Angry Birds is perfect for that. When I need a real good dose of gaming, I fire up my Xbox360. I've always been interested in graphics (see my username) and "spoiled" with PC graphics so I chose it over PS3 because of better graphics, slimmer profile, don't need BluRay and Kinect is more interesting than PS Move.
But whatever your preference, that's fine. I don't listen to pop music because it's just not my thing, I prefer Trance and Progressive.
Also, those graphs are extremely dishonest and misleading. Where is the Nintendo DS? Where is the Wii? And why iPad 1+2 and only one generation of the other consoles?
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area. I didn't want to split iPad 1+2 because the data is hard to obtain and it's only been a few years. I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
I have no outright agenda to say iPad is going to destroy everything in its part. But it is a major force. Could Mass Effect 2, Dead Space 1/2 and Alan Wake have been experienced on an iPad 1/2. Definitely not. Maybe not even the iPad 3. But, like I said, if Apple moves in the right direction the iPad 4/5 will fill the last missing gap in Apple's gaming offerings from Angry Birds through to Call Of Duty 10 or whatever. Yes, even the Mac will have a role though it will evolve too.
Whether it be Angry Birds, ShootEmzAllUp, Mass Effect 2 or FarmVille, I think we should recognise all these different forms.
This is an important point. Some types of games simply won't work well without dedicated gaming controls (buttons). But other types of games will play just fine on a touchscreen.
That's why there will always be a market for separate gaming systems (or maybe gaming hardware attachments for mobile phones?).
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area.
I don't think it has much potential there. The hardcore audience needs lots of buttons and such.
I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
Why would you need to include the ipHone and iPod if you had included the Wii or the DS? Wii and DS are the best sellers in their respective console generations.
I'm just trying to highlight the iPad's potential in the "enthusiast/hardcore" gaming area. I didn't want to split iPad 1+2 because the data is hard to obtain and it's only been a few years. I didn't want to include Wii, DS, PSP because then I would have to put in iPhone and iPod Touch which is not what I'm focusing on.
I have no outright agenda to say iPad is going to destroy everything in its part. But it is a major force. Could Mass Effect 2, Dead Space 1/2 and Alan Wake have been experienced on an iPad 1/2. Definitely not. Maybe not even the iPad 3. But, like I said, if Apple moves in the right direction the iPad 4/5 will fill the last missing gap in Apple's gaming offerings from Angry Birds through to Call Of Duty 10 or whatever. Yes, even the Mac will have a role though it will evolve too.
The reason why the iPad has no chance to topple typical console gaming is because it evolves too fast. Console games like Call of Duty spend 2+ years in development, two years is a life time in mobile technology. Look at Apple, the 3GS is ancient compared to the 4s. Hell just even the iPad to the iPad, the leap in performance is that astounding. As a developer, you get stuck coding for multiple generations, and you have a platform that is, dare i say, fragmented.
I'm sure you'd like to see it, but its a pipe dream at best. For the iPad to be a gaming console, it has to have quality games, and i just dont see that truthfully ever happening.
Ah, but if you're a "REAL gamer", you always need the latest and greatest video console or PC. If someone comes out with a new video card that has a 20% higher frame rate, it's a must have - even at $500. At least, that's what all the game fanatics seem to say - and your reference to 'good games' confirms that. Lots of people are focused on specs.
Those real gamers you talk about are not console gamers, they are not the majority of gamers.
Look at Wii. How long has it been without a change in performance? 5 years? And it's still selling - and people are buying lots of games. Similarly, people are able to play games on a 3 year old iPhone 3GS and enjoy the experience. It is, again, a paradigm shift. No one is ever suggesting that Doom Civilization Deathmatch Halo whatever is going to go away. It's simply a new option (low priced portable gaming) for the industry - and Apple largely led the way in that.
That is what I am trying to say, millions of people are happy with older hardware, that is the reason consoles sell, a Wii game now plays on a Wii purchases years ago. In five years from now you cannot guarantee that the latest and greatest iPad game will work on the iPad 1
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
No significant advantage? You mean the fact that you can pull it out of your backpack in an airplane to play a game at 30,000 feet isn't an advantage? Or the fact that the same device that does all of your remote computing allows you to play games without carrying an extra device isn't an advantage?
Excuse me? I have owned devices capable to mobile gaming for years, I have never played a game on a plane, including 20 hour flights, and having an iPad wouldn't change my mind in that area. As I have said, I don't see any advantage. And isn't an iPad an extra device?
No one is suggesting that the iPhone will replace the xBox or PS3. It's simply an alternative. What part of that don't you understand?
I understand that, and I have been saying that throughout this thread, if you bothered to read the thread you would understand that.
Oh, and btw, you know you've lost the argument when you have to start making up stupid numbers to try to defend your choice. There isn't a single iPad model which costs $1,000. If you were only going to use your iPad for gaming, the least expensive $499 model is all you'd need. Games are small enough that the extra storage capacity isn't needed and there'd be no reason for 3G.
Did I? Maybe you are the one that lost the argument because you don't know that more than one country in the world uses the dollar as their currency.
http://store.apple.com/nz/browse/hom...ly/ipad/select
Of the 6 models of iPad 2 listed there, three are over $1000, one is $2 below that number, and one $51.
The other posters are telling me that the iPad can do everything, books, movies, games, to store all of these you need space, Apple refuses to allow memory cards, so you need a larger sized unit, the 32GB iPad is $949, the 64GB is $1099 which you need for these flights you tell me about.
And there is no reason for 3G? Excuse me, one minute you are saying I am blind for no seeing a need, then you tell me you don't need something else? Which one is it?
See, right now, I would love to grab Alan Wake on my iPad, chill in bed and listen to the soundtrack songs, rather than fire up the Xbox360 and sit in front of the TV.
Get a TV in the bedroom and play the XBox there.
Think of it this way. Let say there are 50 million Xbox's out there and maybe 50% of those play Halo. Vs 100 million iOS devices and 50% of them play Angry birds.
Halo cost $59
AB cost $.99
Which cost more to develop?
Which cost more to support?
In the end game makers want to make money. Making money is sales - cost = profit
But the competition on the iOS is so much greater, you're chances of having a hit game is better on a console than on iOS, did you know there's more games available for iOS than ALL console games combined, and by all I mean ALL, starting with the Atari
Get the soundtrack on iTunes?
Why? I already paid for the game. And I can listen to any of the tracks as I like once the game is loaded.
Get a TV in the bedroom and play the XBox there.
Right, disconnect everything, take the Xbox to the bedroom, then take it back to the living room, repeat...