You can get as many CNC machines as you want right now. The down economy has cause a lot of shops to shut down. There is actually a glut of CNC mills on the market right now....
I suspect that it is a problem of scale. Other companies simply do not want to spend the time and resources to "tool up" to make the aluminum housing right now.
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
These other companies make way too products for CNC milling to be as cost effective as Apple can make it. Intel tried to get the others on board for a basic design but the vendors still wanted a reduction in cost from Intel.
Even if they all got on board they either have to use the same design that makes them less appealing to the world of Windows notebooks on the market or make unique design changes that cost them more money. Apple is the only one in a good position and I don't see any other vendor finding a good niche to carve out for themselves for the long run.
This is actually one of the things I like about Apple. They took the simplest concept and applied it at heart.
Work hard, earn money, Don't spend it all put some away because you may need it someday.
The PC boys(and almost all other types of companies for that matter) always seem to want to throw money at everything and never save any, which has to be the reason IMO for their supply crisis. The threw away every little chance, every dollar every penny. and now they are paying for their naive short term investments rather than long term commitments.
Doesn't Apple use the case itself as a heat sync? If the competition is using plastic, it sounds like they will have to make them larger and with noise producing fans. I'm constantly blown away with the common PC industry. Why won't they do anything creative?
What other materials can they turn to except plastic? Sucks for these companies jumping on board so late. That's what they get when they wait too long to compete. Same thing happened with iPad, all alternatives are cheap plastic.
Other alternatives: die cast process using zinc, magnesium or some other metal. I think aluminum can be die cast as well.
Aluminum is not in short supply, I have not seen any supply constraints or disruptions in the past few years. I don't think machines are in short supply. It doesn't take an extremely specialized machine to do most of the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Perhaps I'm being pedantic, Katie, but wouldn't the control be of the CNC machines, not of the aluminium nor the oddly worded "chassis supply"?
There is no way it takes 3 hours in machine time to make a unibody frame. With anodizing and other finishing work, maybe it'll take 3 hours total. But machine time? 30 minutes tops. And that would be slow by todays standards.
But yes, Apple obviously controls supply, and that's affecting these other guys. Frankly I'm glad. My sides were hurting from all the laughing at Acer et. al's attempts to clone the MBA.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
You can get as many CNC machines as you want right now. The down economy has cause a lot of shops to shut down. There is actually a glut of CNC mills on the market right now....
I suspect that it is a problem of scale. Other companies simply do not want to spend the time and resources to "tool up" to make the aluminum housing right now.
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
Do you think the only advantages are weight and structural rigidity? This is a serious question. I have suspected for some time that the unibody aluminum frames were a key to superior thermal dissipation. As we all know, one of the major causes of component failure is thermal stress. Any thoughts, is anyone already familiar or has anyone investigated?
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
This is where competition is good. Most of the PC makers will flail and produce sub-standard designs, but one or two might 'think different' and come up with a better way to make enclosures.
The problem for them, though, is they don't have the resources and production/purchasing scale of Apple (Thanks, Tim Cook!) nor necessarily the fortitude to invest in the long term, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread. Also, it will be more difficult for anyone to have a breakthrough without everyone else hearing about it and adopting the same strategy. Apple's secrecy is hated by the 'open-everything' crowd as well as their competitors, but this is what it takes to stay ahead. The technology field is hardly a gentleman's sport.
Casting generally doesn't yield the kinds of strength that a portable enclosure requires. Too prone to cracks.
How did IBM & Lenovo do it for Thinkpad shells? For that matter, Compaq business notebooks? I've had several that were die cast shells. Before the Unibody, Apple used a lot of die cast parts inside their machines. I have a ten year old business notebook still in occasional use with a die cast shell that is not showing signs of such cracks. I have three other machines of similar construction that don't show the problem. It's a valid concern, but it seems to me to be a manageable problem.
The whole problem with this whole Ultrabook initiative is the simple fact that the 11" MacBook Air is currently Apple's lowest cost Mac notebook. Even if the PC makers can undercut Apple's price by $200 on a similarly spec'd computer, (20% of $999), a $800 ultrabook is an expensive PC when the average price is around $400 to $600. (This may be for desktops but I can't imagine notebooks are that far off)
It's not being pedantic - the article makes Apple sound anti-competetive. The truth is that Apple paid for the manufacturing capacity they are consuming. If other companies want to step up to do likewise, they are free to do so.
Further, I believe Apple helped BUILD the manufacturing capacity for unibody enclosures... either buying outright the CNC farms, or committing to long-term contracts so the vendors could justify buying all those devices.
The point is that without Apple's commitment to unibody designs, those factories wouldn't exist in the first place. It's not like Apple consumed an existing resource all for themselves.
What's what you say? Supply constraints on aluminum manufacturing is forcing the competition to innovate instead of copy Apple? Oh wait, false alarm. No innovation is going on. Just keep doing whatever Apple is doing.
The whole problem with this whole Ultrabook initiative is the simple fact that the 11" MacBook Air is currently Apple's lowest cost Mac notebook. Even if the PC makers can undercut Apple's price by $200 on a similarly spec'd computer, (20% of $999), a $800 ultrabook is an expensive PC when the average price is around $400 to $600. (This may be for desktops but I can't imagine notebooks are that far off)
It may be expensive for typical consumer computers with all-plastic housings and screens with rubbish color quality. A lot of business notebooks are in Apple's price range, have better chassis and screens than their consumer counterparts. When comparing computers, compare on build quality too. My Dell Studio that I bought last year is a creaky turd with a screen that has a terrible viewing angle. Even my pre-unibody MacBook Pro is more rigid, and still feels and looks better. The performance doesn't even feel different on the Dell, despite 3+ years in technology difference.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
I've used local cnc shops. Great work but not to the tolerance I would think is needed for a portable computer. Plus the term cnc machines is very general. Are they using laser, water jet, end mills? A combination seems likely. There is no way that making a MBA body takes just 10 min. Those 30 shops near your house can't produce this kind of item currently. If they could they would.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
But are there thousands of shops in Taiwan or China? Also, you have to be willing to send your chief designer, the equivalent of Jony Ive, to shepherd the project through the shop(s), presumably over and over till they get it right. How long did he spend in China getting something like this underway? Was it three weeks or three months? I think the latter. Engineers from Asus or Acer spending weeks in the Motel 6 in Canoga Park or wherever? Hard to imagine.
I also can't imagine any company but Apple having the confidence to force a design this radical into being. You'd have to know you're going to sell millions, and there are no signs yet of such success for the PC ultrabook concept.
But Ive (and Bob Mansfield?) should get more credit for uniquely pulling this off. The machined aluminIum chassis solves heat, strength, weight and thickness problems so well, and looks so great besides, it is the single most obvious accomplishment you can point to if you want to see or show the Apple difference. Now we're beginning to see the effects of that obvious difference on a deep materials level.
Oh, and you're right, the machining time for each unit sounds totally bogus, not that I know anything about it. They must mean the total time spent handling and finishing.
Do you think the only advantages are weight and structural rigidity? This is a serious question. I have suspected for some time that the unibody aluminum frames were a key to superior thermal dissipation. As we all know, one of the major causes of component failure is thermal stress. Any thoughts, is anyone already familiar or has anyone investigated?
Aluminum does conduct heat well. It does help to cool the units. When I designed and manufactured industrial computers I always used Steel and Aluminum materials (Especially aluminum Bezels). I would NEVER have used plastic because it is such a good insulator of heat.
However, I see no reason for heat dissipation to prevent someone from using composite based chassis. I suspect manufactures will embed heat sinks within the composite layers. Kind of like flexible circuit boards. These would be attached to solid state heat pumps ( Peltier effect cooler).
It is also possible to actually convert the heat back into electricity. It is not particularly efficient right now, but could recover up to 2-5% of the energy with current technology. I expect a breakthrough as people explore new composite battery (especially Carbon Nao Tubes) technologies (for automotive applications) that will make these heat to electricity devices more efficient. The ability to recover some of the heat and re-use the energy as electricity would have a significant effect on battery life while lowering the need for external cooling...
Keep in mind that Apple is also working on composite chassis. I am sure that they realize that they are the only way to make a lighter and stronger chassis. IMHO, I think Apple has pushed the Aluminum based chassis about as far as they can.
The whole problem with this whole Ultrabook initiative is the simple fact that the 11" MacBook Air is currently Apple's lowest cost Mac notebook. Even if the PC makers can undercut Apple's price by $200 on a similarly spec'd computer, (20% of $999), a $800 ultrabook is an expensive PC when the average price is around $400 to $600. (This may be for desktops but I can't imagine notebooks are that far off)
Comments
You can get as many CNC machines as you want right now. The down economy has cause a lot of shops to shut down. There is actually a glut of CNC mills on the market right now....
I suspect that it is a problem of scale. Other companies simply do not want to spend the time and resources to "tool up" to make the aluminum housing right now.
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
These other companies make way too products for CNC milling to be as cost effective as Apple can make it. Intel tried to get the others on board for a basic design but the vendors still wanted a reduction in cost from Intel.
Even if they all got on board they either have to use the same design that makes them less appealing to the world of Windows notebooks on the market or make unique design changes that cost them more money. Apple is the only one in a good position and I don't see any other vendor finding a good niche to carve out for themselves for the long run.
Work hard, earn money, Don't spend it all put some away because you may need it someday.
The PC boys(and almost all other types of companies for that matter) always seem to want to throw money at everything and never save any, which has to be the reason IMO for their supply crisis. The threw away every little chance, every dollar every penny. and now they are paying for their naive short term investments rather than long term commitments.
What other materials can they turn to except plastic? Sucks for these companies jumping on board so late. That's what they get when they wait too long to compete. Same thing happened with iPad, all alternatives are cheap plastic.
Other alternatives: die cast process using zinc, magnesium or some other metal. I think aluminum can be die cast as well.
Aluminum is not in short supply, I have not seen any supply constraints or disruptions in the past few years. I don't think machines are in short supply. It doesn't take an extremely specialized machine to do most of the work.
Perhaps I'm being pedantic, Katie, but wouldn't the control be of the CNC machines, not of the aluminium nor the oddly worded "chassis supply"?
Exactly. The headline is just plain incorrect.
There is no way it takes 3 hours in machine time to make a unibody frame. With anodizing and other finishing work, maybe it'll take 3 hours total. But machine time? 30 minutes tops. And that would be slow by todays standards.
But yes, Apple obviously controls supply, and that's affecting these other guys. Frankly I'm glad. My sides were hurting from all the laughing at Acer et. al's attempts to clone the MBA.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
You can get as many CNC machines as you want right now. The down economy has cause a lot of shops to shut down. There is actually a glut of CNC mills on the market right now....
I suspect that it is a problem of scale. Other companies simply do not want to spend the time and resources to "tool up" to make the aluminum housing right now.
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
Do you think the only advantages are weight and structural rigidity? This is a serious question. I have suspected for some time that the unibody aluminum frames were a key to superior thermal dissipation. As we all know, one of the major causes of component failure is thermal stress. Any thoughts, is anyone already familiar or has anyone investigated?
Other alternatives: die cast process using zinc, magnesium or some other metal. I think aluminum can be die cast as well.
Casting generally doesn't yield the kinds of strength that a portable enclosure requires. Too prone to cracks.
I suspect that they (if they have any sense) are going to put their time and resources toward the next generation of composite (probably carbon fiber/kevlar) materials and manufacturing. Even Apple seems to realize that they have carried the Aluminum chassis about as far as they can with weight savings.
Who ever prefects the manufacturing of the composite chassis first will win the next "Mine is lighter and stronger" title...
This is where competition is good. Most of the PC makers will flail and produce sub-standard designs, but one or two might 'think different' and come up with a better way to make enclosures.
The problem for them, though, is they don't have the resources and production/purchasing scale of Apple (Thanks, Tim Cook!) nor necessarily the fortitude to invest in the long term, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread. Also, it will be more difficult for anyone to have a breakthrough without everyone else hearing about it and adopting the same strategy. Apple's secrecy is hated by the 'open-everything' crowd as well as their competitors, but this is what it takes to stay ahead. The technology field is hardly a gentleman's sport.
Casting generally doesn't yield the kinds of strength that a portable enclosure requires. Too prone to cracks.
How did IBM & Lenovo do it for Thinkpad shells? For that matter, Compaq business notebooks? I've had several that were die cast shells. Before the Unibody, Apple used a lot of die cast parts inside their machines. I have a ten year old business notebook still in occasional use with a die cast shell that is not showing signs of such cracks. I have three other machines of similar construction that don't show the problem. It's a valid concern, but it seems to me to be a manageable problem.
It's not being pedantic - the article makes Apple sound anti-competetive. The truth is that Apple paid for the manufacturing capacity they are consuming. If other companies want to step up to do likewise, they are free to do so.
Further, I believe Apple helped BUILD the manufacturing capacity for unibody enclosures... either buying outright the CNC farms, or committing to long-term contracts so the vendors could justify buying all those devices.
The point is that without Apple's commitment to unibody designs, those factories wouldn't exist in the first place. It's not like Apple consumed an existing resource all for themselves.
MadCow.
The whole problem with this whole Ultrabook initiative is the simple fact that the 11" MacBook Air is currently Apple's lowest cost Mac notebook. Even if the PC makers can undercut Apple's price by $200 on a similarly spec'd computer, (20% of $999), a $800 ultrabook is an expensive PC when the average price is around $400 to $600. (This may be for desktops but I can't imagine notebooks are that far off)
It may be expensive for typical consumer computers with all-plastic housings and screens with rubbish color quality. A lot of business notebooks are in Apple's price range, have better chassis and screens than their consumer counterparts. When comparing computers, compare on build quality too. My Dell Studio that I bought last year is a creaky turd with a screen that has a terrible viewing angle. Even my pre-unibody MacBook Pro is more rigid, and still feels and looks better. The performance doesn't even feel different on the Dell, despite 3+ years in technology difference.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
I've used local cnc shops. Great work but not to the tolerance I would think is needed for a portable computer. Plus the term cnc machines is very general. Are they using laser, water jet, end mills? A combination seems likely. There is no way that making a MBA body takes just 10 min. Those 30 shops near your house can't produce this kind of item currently. If they could they would.
More like 10 minutes - I've done plenty of CNC milling.
Why do they even bother listening to Digitime? They're wrong 99% of the time. Not to mention that it doesn't make any sense. There are tens of thousands of shops that can to CNC milling of aluminum. I could find 30 shops within 15 miles of my house. There's no way Apple has the entire industry locked up.
But are there thousands of shops in Taiwan or China? Also, you have to be willing to send your chief designer, the equivalent of Jony Ive, to shepherd the project through the shop(s), presumably over and over till they get it right. How long did he spend in China getting something like this underway? Was it three weeks or three months? I think the latter. Engineers from Asus or Acer spending weeks in the Motel 6 in Canoga Park or wherever? Hard to imagine.
I also can't imagine any company but Apple having the confidence to force a design this radical into being. You'd have to know you're going to sell millions, and there are no signs yet of such success for the PC ultrabook concept.
But Ive (and Bob Mansfield?) should get more credit for uniquely pulling this off. The machined aluminIum chassis solves heat, strength, weight and thickness problems so well, and looks so great besides, it is the single most obvious accomplishment you can point to if you want to see or show the Apple difference. Now we're beginning to see the effects of that obvious difference on a deep materials level.
Oh, and you're right, the machining time for each unit sounds totally bogus, not that I know anything about it. They must mean the total time spent handling and finishing.
Do you think the only advantages are weight and structural rigidity? This is a serious question. I have suspected for some time that the unibody aluminum frames were a key to superior thermal dissipation. As we all know, one of the major causes of component failure is thermal stress. Any thoughts, is anyone already familiar or has anyone investigated?
Aluminum does conduct heat well. It does help to cool the units. When I designed and manufactured industrial computers I always used Steel and Aluminum materials (Especially aluminum Bezels). I would NEVER have used plastic because it is such a good insulator of heat.
However, I see no reason for heat dissipation to prevent someone from using composite based chassis. I suspect manufactures will embed heat sinks within the composite layers. Kind of like flexible circuit boards. These would be attached to solid state heat pumps ( Peltier effect cooler).
It is also possible to actually convert the heat back into electricity. It is not particularly efficient right now, but could recover up to 2-5% of the energy with current technology. I expect a breakthrough as people explore new composite battery (especially Carbon Nao Tubes) technologies (for automotive applications) that will make these heat to electricity devices more efficient. The ability to recover some of the heat and re-use the energy as electricity would have a significant effect on battery life while lowering the need for external cooling...
Keep in mind that Apple is also working on composite chassis. I am sure that they realize that they are the only way to make a lighter and stronger chassis. IMHO, I think Apple has pushed the Aluminum based chassis about as far as they can.
(Although apparently Apple controls that technology as well.)
As a dejected LQMT shareholder, I am still waiting for that one to pan out.......
The whole problem with this whole Ultrabook initiative is the simple fact that the 11" MacBook Air is currently Apple's lowest cost Mac notebook. Even if the PC makers can undercut Apple's price by $200 on a similarly spec'd computer, (20% of $999), a $800 ultrabook is an expensive PC when the average price is around $400 to $600. (This may be for desktops but I can't imagine notebooks are that far off)
Great point!