Well, sometimes war is necessary and a useless stimulus is not.
Sometimes. But not this time. This time it was a colossal waste of soldiers lives and trillions of dollars. And it is a large part of the reason bush took a budget surplus and turned it into a massive debt.
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
Do you live there? Apple and its' employees received the tax cuts, not the local residents. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
Yes, and never mind the fact that those taxes are needed to pay for education, among other things, directly impacting the reason why there aren't more local people qualified to apply for Apple's higher paying jobs.
I'll bet that even after the tax breaks Apple pays a lot more in taxes than the land generated previously.
Only thing bush did wrong was not take the country over, make them employees to Exxon, and drain that country dry. We'd payem a fair wage and they'd have better lifestyles than they do now. Hell- spend all that $ on a war, get it back in oil plus some. Don't let those dumb shieks get another gold (literally) Mercedes.
Half kidding- kind of. No lectures please. I realize this would likely never happen.
In my opinion it's too soon for jokes. And if you're serious you're crazy.
That local newspaper article appears to be rational, considered and objective...
Seems that it might have a been a better source for the AI article... than the Washington Post article where 3 semi-negative (or neutral) opinions were conflated into a negative article.
Hickory Daily Record: "Apple data center brings 300 jobs to Maiden"
vs
Washington Post: "Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs to beaten-down towns"
Interesting to note how North Carolina unemployment compares with other states:
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
I think the tax break only applies to Apple. I am not sure the town is thinking this through. Even at 50% off they are still taking in a lot more tax revenue than they were getting for the empty land (That was probably zoned agriculturally and generating almost no revenue at all).
100% of $20,000 is $20,000. 50% of $1,000,000 is $500,000. How anyone can use percentages in a news story is beyond me.
I agree that it makes no sense for Apple to hire additional people they don't need. However, as it often happens, local politicians granted Apple ridiculous tax breaks in exchange for... what, exactly?
This is the same old story that has played itself out at both the local and national level. Politicians and their corporate sponsors push the idea that businesses must be given tax breaks in order to create more jobs, except there's absolutely no strings attached that they actually do so, so it's nothing but corporate welfare. When new jobs are actually created they're usually small in number, low paying and in no way tied to whatever tax breaks the corporation received.
Considering Apple is one of (if not the) largest and most profitable companies on the planet, you have to wonder why they need any tax breaks or loopholes when there's no payback in exchange. Now I'm a huge Apple fan and I don't think they're doing anything wrong - as a business they're trying to minimize costs and maximize profits - but this is a fine example of why this tired old story needs to be put to rest and corporate welfare needs to end immediately.
You are just very confused about what a tax break is. Land that was generating thousands of dollars in tax revenue is now generating millions of dollars of tax revenue (even after the break). There is a payback, a huge one. This was not charity for apple, it was a discount (you know a break) on what the taxes were to incent Apple to build there instead of somewhere else. The town is still taking in massive amount of new property tax revenue...
Why should anyone read a utopian fantasy based on premises completely at odds with all reality, including human nature? It's not like Rand had any talent as a writer, or a philosopher. Atlas Shrugged is, like all of Rand's thought and writings, a piece of trash.
I did not read all 250 or so posts so maybe someone already said something like this but perhaps what is really going on here is that some politician is getting people amped up in order to boost his own prominence in popular awareness and using the single biggest media-attention getting option in his jurisdiction to do so.
This was the quote you could have stopped on. It isn't true. Liberalism has one idea, and one idea only: Take more money from those who earn it and spend it on whatever we deem to be the need.
Absolutely, totally, 100% wrong. Perhaps you should learn something about a political ideology before attacking it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugzy
Liberalism or Progressivism is not about all about "new ideas", it is OPEN to new ideas (the antithesis of true conservatism). It is more about that the role of government is to protect the rights of the citizens. (also apparently the antithesis of conservatives who seem very concerned about how I spend my time in the privacy of my own home. Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed? )
Much closer to the mark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstark
Oh my. Maiden, NC is "unhappy"? This is the kind of thinking that got us in the financial mess we are in right now. There is no entitlement clause with the data center is there?
Maiden, NC isn't unhappy. The author managed to find a few poor, deluded individuals who apparently thought that Apple's data center was going to make them rich and when it didn't happen, they went off whining to the press.
I suspect that Maiden business owners are pretty happy overall. Maiden construction workers are probably pretty happy. Maiden city officials are undoubtedly happy with millions in new tax revenues.
No doubt, poor, uneducated Jud who expected that Apple would give him a $200,000 job as VP of sitting around is unhappy. That doesn't mean that it was a bad move for Apple OR for Maiden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".
You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.
Well, it would be interesting to see where Iraq fired a missile at your house. Or Afghanistan, for that matter.
A few terrorists did some horrible things. How does that make the government of a country where the terrorists didn't even live guilty?
What? How many jobs did they think would be created? I guess they have no comprehension of how few people it takes to run a properly designed data center. 50 people is quite impressively large. Of course there were construction jobs to build the place, but of course, like all construction, those are temporary.
People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.
Apple did the right thing.
I agree. Also, I have not yet seen a comment about how those 50 jobs, wherever the employees came from, contribute to the local economy. Even if every one of the 50 employees came from out of state (unlikely), that would be 50 more people buying homes in the area, and supporting local businesses - they'll be buying groceries, and visiting the local hardware store just like everyone else...
We invaded a sovereign nation that did nothing to us, allow their infrastructure and economy to be destroyed and you kid about this?
Gold plated Mercedes? Are you confusing Iraq with Saudi Arabia?
Is the entire Middle East all just the same place for you?
Are you aware they we literally paid the Iraqis a cash salary for a long long time after Saddam was deposed because we screwed up their economy so badly? And WE were told that the oil would pay for the war. That never happened. We paid for the war with the lives of innocent American soldiers (and National Guard who should never have been sent there...)
More Americans died for a useless war in Iraq than died in the 9/11 attacks.
And you think it's funny.
Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.
Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.
"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]
"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]
and then:
The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."
International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."
Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".
You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.
Perhaps you could enlighten me and explain to everyone just exactly why we invaded a sovereign nation on March 20 2002.
It would go a long way toward establishing some credibility on your specious claims.
My father in law is a retired submarine captain (diesel sub!)
During the buildup to the war in Iraq he said "they don't go to war without a very good reason."
He should know. He spent his life in the military. He knows how it works. I defer to his judgement.
He has a very different opinion today after seeing how it was handled.
My father-in-law now shares my opinion on the Iraq war. Are you saying that his observations based on his years of military service are completely false and wrong?
"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]
"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]
and then:
The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."
International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."
Great quotes- so where does it say it will pay for the war? Still looking for those.
Mr. Furniture Maker, if you knew about this data center two years before it actually opened, why didn't you try taking some technology classes so you could apply for one of those jobs? Or if not you, why not someone else get retrained to become a good job applicant for Apple?
Here's the problem... the people who are complaining are completely unwilling to do or try anything different. I suppose they expected Apple to hire a furniture maker? Or a lumberjack? Or a burger flipper? Sure, if these people have qualifications in running and supporting a data center.
Now the larger view... those 50 people hired now have more disposable income in an area that desperately needs it. So those 50 people will now be able to pay down their debt, perhaps buy some furniture, and eat out more often.
I owned a successful graphics design firm in Seattle for four years. When I moved to Arizona for a life change, I retrained myself and opened up a real estate office which is now ranked in the top 20 locally. People need to think bigger, make the changes, and stop waiting for someone to come and rescue you. And you know what? I consider myself quite liberal and progressive... but these whiners make me sick.
Comments
Well, sometimes war is necessary and a useless stimulus is not.
Sometimes. But not this time. This time it was a colossal waste of soldiers lives and trillions of dollars. And it is a large part of the reason bush took a budget surplus and turned it into a massive debt.
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
Do you live there? Apple and its' employees received the tax cuts, not the local residents. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
Yes, and never mind the fact that those taxes are needed to pay for education, among other things, directly impacting the reason why there aren't more local people qualified to apply for Apple's higher paying jobs.
I'll bet that even after the tax breaks Apple pays a lot more in taxes than the land generated previously.
Only thing bush did wrong was not take the country over, make them employees to Exxon, and drain that country dry. We'd payem a fair wage and they'd have better lifestyles than they do now. Hell- spend all that $ on a war, get it back in oil plus some. Don't let those dumb shieks get another gold (literally) Mercedes.
Half kidding- kind of. No lectures please. I realize this would likely never happen.
In my opinion it's too soon for jokes. And if you're serious you're crazy.
That local newspaper article appears to be rational, considered and objective...
Seems that it might have a been a better source for the AI article... than the Washington Post article where 3 semi-negative (or neutral) opinions were conflated into a negative article.
Hickory Daily Record: "Apple data center brings 300 jobs to Maiden"
vs
Washington Post: "Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs to beaten-down towns"
Interesting to note how North Carolina unemployment compares with other states:
List of U.S. states by unemployment rate
Mmmm... We here in California certainly could use that additional $4.6 million annual tax revenue!
I recon it looks like everyone in North Carolina should mozy on over to Illinois.
"According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent."
If THAT'S not a major benefit to everyone there, I don't know what is. Please Apple, come build a plant in my town. I wouldn't care if I work there or not if it means I'll get my property taxes chopped in half.
I think the tax break only applies to Apple. I am not sure the town is thinking this through. Even at 50% off they are still taking in a lot more tax revenue than they were getting for the empty land (That was probably zoned agriculturally and generating almost no revenue at all).
100% of $20,000 is $20,000. 50% of $1,000,000 is $500,000. How anyone can use percentages in a news story is beyond me.
I agree that it makes no sense for Apple to hire additional people they don't need. However, as it often happens, local politicians granted Apple ridiculous tax breaks in exchange for... what, exactly?
This is the same old story that has played itself out at both the local and national level. Politicians and their corporate sponsors push the idea that businesses must be given tax breaks in order to create more jobs, except there's absolutely no strings attached that they actually do so, so it's nothing but corporate welfare. When new jobs are actually created they're usually small in number, low paying and in no way tied to whatever tax breaks the corporation received.
Considering Apple is one of (if not the) largest and most profitable companies on the planet, you have to wonder why they need any tax breaks or loopholes when there's no payback in exchange. Now I'm a huge Apple fan and I don't think they're doing anything wrong - as a business they're trying to minimize costs and maximize profits - but this is a fine example of why this tired old story needs to be put to rest and corporate welfare needs to end immediately.
You are just very confused about what a tax break is. Land that was generating thousands of dollars in tax revenue is now generating millions of dollars of tax revenue (even after the break). There is a payback, a huge one. This was not charity for apple, it was a discount (you know a break) on what the taxes were to incent Apple to build there instead of somewhere else. The town is still taking in massive amount of new property tax revenue...
... these people should read Atlas Shrugged. ...
Why should anyone read a utopian fantasy based on premises completely at odds with all reality, including human nature? It's not like Rand had any talent as a writer, or a philosopher. Atlas Shrugged is, like all of Rand's thought and writings, a piece of trash.
Just reading the story and skim read some of the replies here......... speechless.
Right off the rails on page 5.
This was the quote you could have stopped on. It isn't true. Liberalism has one idea, and one idea only: Take more money from those who earn it and spend it on whatever we deem to be the need.
Absolutely, totally, 100% wrong. Perhaps you should learn something about a political ideology before attacking it.
Liberalism or Progressivism is not about all about "new ideas", it is OPEN to new ideas (the antithesis of true conservatism). It is more about that the role of government is to protect the rights of the citizens. (also apparently the antithesis of conservatives who seem very concerned about how I spend my time in the privacy of my own home. Conservatives also seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about the gays for some reason. Wonder why they are so obsessed?
Much closer to the mark.
Oh my. Maiden, NC is "unhappy"? This is the kind of thinking that got us in the financial mess we are in right now. There is no entitlement clause with the data center is there?
Maiden, NC isn't unhappy. The author managed to find a few poor, deluded individuals who apparently thought that Apple's data center was going to make them rich and when it didn't happen, they went off whining to the press.
I suspect that Maiden business owners are pretty happy overall. Maiden construction workers are probably pretty happy. Maiden city officials are undoubtedly happy with millions in new tax revenues.
No doubt, poor, uneducated Jud who expected that Apple would give him a $200,000 job as VP of sitting around is unhappy. That doesn't mean that it was a bad move for Apple OR for Maiden.
Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".
You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.
Well, it would be interesting to see where Iraq fired a missile at your house. Or Afghanistan, for that matter.
A few terrorists did some horrible things. How does that make the government of a country where the terrorists didn't even live guilty?
People who have been furniture makers their whole lives do not bring the skills necessary. It doesn't matter how many jobs Apple brings to this area the people who have lived there their whole lives do not have the skills. At least some one got jobs building it and the people who owned the land made out.
Apple did the right thing.
I agree. Also, I have not yet seen a comment about how those 50 jobs, wherever the employees came from, contribute to the local economy. Even if every one of the 50 employees came from out of state (unlikely), that would be 50 more people buying homes in the area, and supporting local businesses - they'll be buying groceries, and visiting the local hardware store just like everyone else...
so which half are you kidding about?
We invaded a sovereign nation that did nothing to us, allow their infrastructure and economy to be destroyed and you kid about this?
Gold plated Mercedes? Are you confusing Iraq with Saudi Arabia?
Is the entire Middle East all just the same place for you?
Are you aware they we literally paid the Iraqis a cash salary for a long long time after Saddam was deposed because we screwed up their economy so badly? And WE were told that the oil would pay for the war. That never happened. We paid for the war with the lives of innocent American soldiers (and National Guard who should never have been sent there...)
More Americans died for a useless war in Iraq than died in the 9/11 attacks.
And you think it's funny.
Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.
Yawn. Get over yourself. Mind quoting the "they" who told us the oil would pay for the war? Or is that just more mindless speak.
"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]
"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]
and then:
The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."
International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."
Is it ok if somebody fires some missiles at your house? You seem to be ok with that, based upon your unique definition of "nothing".
You should read up on the history of that war and you'll find out that your claim of "nothing" is completely false and wrong.
Perhaps you could enlighten me and explain to everyone just exactly why we invaded a sovereign nation on March 20 2002.
It would go a long way toward establishing some credibility on your specious claims.
My father in law is a retired submarine captain (diesel sub!)
During the buildup to the war in Iraq he said "they don't go to war without a very good reason."
He should know. He spent his life in the military. He knows how it works. I defer to his judgement.
He has a very different opinion today after seeing how it was handled.
My father-in-law now shares my opinion on the Iraq war. Are you saying that his observations based on his years of military service are completely false and wrong?
"Iraq will be an affordable endeavor that will not require sustained aid and will be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion."
-- Budget Director Mitch Daniels [Forbes 4/11/03, W. Post 3/28/03, NY Times 1/2/03, respectively]
"The oil revenues of Iraq could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."
-- Paul Wolfowitz, [Congressional Testimony, 3/27/03]
and then:
The Wall Street Journal reported on 9/5/03 that "the Administration's oil estimates were predicated on aggressively optimistic assumptions."
International Oil Daily reported on 9/23/03 that "Paul Bremer said that current and future oil revenues will be insufficient for rebuilding Iraq despite the Administration's pre-war promises."
Great quotes- so where does it say it will pay for the war? Still looking for those.
Mr. Furniture Maker, if you knew about this data center two years before it actually opened, why didn't you try taking some technology classes so you could apply for one of those jobs? Or if not you, why not someone else get retrained to become a good job applicant for Apple?
Here's the problem... the people who are complaining are completely unwilling to do or try anything different. I suppose they expected Apple to hire a furniture maker? Or a lumberjack? Or a burger flipper? Sure, if these people have qualifications in running and supporting a data center.
Now the larger view... those 50 people hired now have more disposable income in an area that desperately needs it. So those 50 people will now be able to pay down their debt, perhaps buy some furniture, and eat out more often.
I owned a successful graphics design firm in Seattle for four years. When I moved to Arizona for a life change, I retrained myself and opened up a real estate office which is now ranked in the top 20 locally. People need to think bigger, make the changes, and stop waiting for someone to come and rescue you. And you know what? I consider myself quite liberal and progressive... but these whiners make me sick.