I just don't understand this pessimism. JD, you are so concerned with the "feature gap" that "will appear" if performance continues to widen. Well right now Apple has the most kickass suite of digital applications, and out of the box, Macs are a hell of a lot more capable than PCs. My point is though, that the performance gap isn't widening as it once was, it's closing. If you've noticed, Apple's CPU speeds have been increasing in larger and larger increments, on both desktop and portable models. The PowerBook went from 500 on the high end, to a 550 low end with 667 high end, and the PowerMac from a Dual 800 high end to a Dual GHz high end. Apple used to only increase clock speed by 50-100 MHz! And now, with new bus architectures almost finished, Rapid I/O, DDR, etc., on the horizon, the MHz increase increment, will, well, INCREASE!
So I don't see why you are so concerned JD, especially since Apple's machines are scaling faster and faster every year. I know Intel/AMD's are too, but like I said, the gap is slowly closing. Until Apple begins to only upgrade in 50 MHz increments again, I wouldn't be worried. Just be patient and wait until Apple really does fall behind (as opposed to kicking ass, as they are now), before you bitch.
<strong>I just don't understand this pessimism. JD, you are so concerned with the "feature gap" that "will appear" if performance continues to widen. Well right now Apple has the most kickass suite of digital applications, and out of the box, Macs are a hell of a lot more capable than PCs. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said.
I suppose JD feels targeted because he is speaking his mind / concerns freely. I understand his concerns. Some of them are quite justified. I just don't appreciate people exaggerating the issue in an attempt to prove their point. I also don't buy into the notion that Apple has to match or exceed Intel in terms of MHZ. Yes, I'd like Apple to shore up the raw FP performance for things like 3D rendering, etc. I'd also like to see Apple exceed Intel's offerings across the board.
However, the notion that Apple is in trouble, etc. because of the "Mhz gap" just isn't true. I'm not aware of applications of functions that Macs can't do because of speed limitations. Until that happens, Apple won't be losing any significant amount of sales.
No, I wasn't happy with the last round of Apple updates in the high end. As such, I'm deffering my purchase until this summer for a high end Mac. I will still purchase one this summer, regardless if it's a dual 1.2GHZ G4 or a dual 2GHZ G5. I'd obviously much prefer the faster of the two, but I'm due for an update and whatever machine they ship will be faster than my 500mhz machine today. I also have an 800mhz P3. Is it faster than my 500mhz G3? Yes, but not by all that much. Which machine do I use most? My Mac, by far. Why? I much prefer OS X to Windows. The iApps are pretty awesome, etc...
While I'm ranting, I might as well bring up the bus / DDR ram issue. I won't single anyone out here, but some people have unrealistic expectations in terms of what DDR ram will provide performance wise. To these people, I suggest they compare the difference between regular SDRAM and DDR Ram (or even RAMBUS) for that matter in terms of what it provides performance wise for the Intel side. In most apps, it makes roughly a 10% performance gain. Now, consider the fact that Apple is using large L3 caches to offset this performance gain. Soon, you'll realize just how marginal this technology is. Would it be nice if Apple moved to DDR? Yes, and I'm sure they will soon. Is it any sort of magic bullet in terms of performance? Absolutely not!
Exactly. It is a combination of things that will make performance better including the OS. We can't just talk processor manufacturers.
There are no apps or capabilities that cannot be handled by recent Macs. In terms of applications that push machines to the limit we are now talking about creating a more real-time experience for a user or in the case of games a more realistic environment than current hardware allows the software to provide.
Lest you think this is just important for professionals, thanks to Apple, think again (or different). In another thread someone was complaining that converting a long iMovie to Toast/VCD took too long. It does on any machine regardless of who made it. If Apple can bring forth technologies in a combination (not just higher clock speeds) to improve this situation does it really matter what combination that is? If we get a G4 that runs at 1.4Ghz but rips the newest X86 a new one where it matters I would buy one as soon as possible (a dual one of course ).
An interesting aside: I live in NYC. J & R, one of our largets electronics retailers, has for years advertised either on the backpage of the weekly NYTimes circuits section (the Times's review of electronics/tech/computers), and on other days the backpage of business or sports. Two, 3 years ago Apple was always the featured manafacturer: the Mac add occupied the centerpiece, sonetimes holding as much as 20-25% of the page realestate. Well, over the last year or so this space has been gradually shrinking, to the point now where the Mac portion is tiny, and usually down at the bottom of the page. In-store the situation is similar-the Mac dept has been ghettoized to the 4th floor, and their space seems to ahve shrunken considerably. Same thing goes at another long term Apple reseller, Datavision. They don't advertise that much any more, but in store the Apple-alloted space has shrunk. CompUSA has turned their Apple space into a minature Apple store in their flagship store at 420 5th Ave, but I rarely see Apple customers there. (Don't see too many Apple customers in J & R and Datavision anymore, either) Come to think of it, the one place I still see customers: at TechWorks, the local Aple repair shop.
PS No, Apple hasn't opened their store here yet.
PPS When I first moved to Manhattan in 1990 there were a good half dozen Apple retailers that seemed pretty busy: Computer ERA, MPC, RCS, etc. RCS is the only one left, and they mostly sell PCs and smaller consumer electronics.
Ptrash, I can't believe that about J & R. I haven't been there in almost a year, but the last time I was there the Mac section was a pretty decent size and there were a lot of customers there, playing with TiBooks, G4s, and iMacs (this was before the Dual-USB iBook, when not too many people cared about the iBook). I can't believe it, but I'll take your word.
Sure it is.. Just look at the latest powermac sales. Didnt Apple sell less than 220K Powermac units last Q? (IRC, 216K units)
Apple got less than 1% marketshare if you look at the computer market of computers with at least 1 PCI slot, less than 1 % marketshare if you look at the computer market with upgradeable graphics....
<strong>Apple got less than 1% marketshare if you look at the computer market of computers with at least 1 PCI slot, less than 1 % marketshare if you look at the computer market with upgradeable graphics....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hello Genius, the 2 category you mentioned above is the same category. Name any Mac that has upgradable Graphics card with no PCI Slot ??
Anyways really don't know where you got your statistics from.
<strong>Ptrash, I can't believe that about J & R. I haven't been there in almost a year, but the last time I was there the Mac section was a pretty decent size and there were a lot of customers there, playing with TiBooks, G4s, and iMacs (this was before the Dual-USB iBook, when not too many people cared about the iBook). I can't believe it, but I'll take your word.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The layout is bigger and better than previously, but it's more diificult to get to being on the fourth floor instead of street level.
Comments
So I don't see why you are so concerned JD, especially since Apple's machines are scaling faster and faster every year. I know Intel/AMD's are too, but like I said, the gap is slowly closing. Until Apple begins to only upgrade in 50 MHz increments again, I wouldn't be worried. Just be patient and wait until Apple really does fall behind (as opposed to kicking ass, as they are now), before you bitch.
<strong>I just don't understand this pessimism. JD, you are so concerned with the "feature gap" that "will appear" if performance continues to widen. Well right now Apple has the most kickass suite of digital applications, and out of the box, Macs are a hell of a lot more capable than PCs. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said.
I suppose JD feels targeted because he is speaking his mind / concerns freely. I understand his concerns. Some of them are quite justified. I just don't appreciate people exaggerating the issue in an attempt to prove their point. I also don't buy into the notion that Apple has to match or exceed Intel in terms of MHZ. Yes, I'd like Apple to shore up the raw FP performance for things like 3D rendering, etc. I'd also like to see Apple exceed Intel's offerings across the board.
However, the notion that Apple is in trouble, etc. because of the "Mhz gap" just isn't true. I'm not aware of applications of functions that Macs can't do because of speed limitations. Until that happens, Apple won't be losing any significant amount of sales.
No, I wasn't happy with the last round of Apple updates in the high end. As such, I'm deffering my purchase until this summer for a high end Mac. I will still purchase one this summer, regardless if it's a dual 1.2GHZ G4 or a dual 2GHZ G5. I'd obviously much prefer the faster of the two, but I'm due for an update and whatever machine they ship will be faster than my 500mhz machine today. I also have an 800mhz P3. Is it faster than my 500mhz G3? Yes, but not by all that much. Which machine do I use most? My Mac, by far. Why? I much prefer OS X to Windows. The iApps are pretty awesome, etc...
While I'm ranting, I might as well bring up the bus / DDR ram issue. I won't single anyone out here, but some people have unrealistic expectations in terms of what DDR ram will provide performance wise. To these people, I suggest they compare the difference between regular SDRAM and DDR Ram (or even RAMBUS) for that matter in terms of what it provides performance wise for the Intel side. In most apps, it makes roughly a 10% performance gain. Now, consider the fact that Apple is using large L3 caches to offset this performance gain. Soon, you'll realize just how marginal this technology is. Would it be nice if Apple moved to DDR? Yes, and I'm sure they will soon. Is it any sort of magic bullet in terms of performance? Absolutely not!
Steve
There are no apps or capabilities that cannot be handled by recent Macs. In terms of applications that push machines to the limit we are now talking about creating a more real-time experience for a user or in the case of games a more realistic environment than current hardware allows the software to provide.
Lest you think this is just important for professionals, thanks to Apple, think again (or different). In another thread someone was complaining that converting a long iMovie to Toast/VCD took too long. It does on any machine regardless of who made it. If Apple can bring forth technologies in a combination (not just higher clock speeds) to improve this situation does it really matter what combination that is? If we get a G4 that runs at 1.4Ghz but rips the newest X86 a new one where it matters I would buy one as soon as possible (a dual one of course ).
PS No, Apple hasn't opened their store here yet.
PPS When I first moved to Manhattan in 1990 there were a good half dozen Apple retailers that seemed pretty busy: Computer ERA, MPC, RCS, etc. RCS is the only one left, and they mostly sell PCs and smaller consumer electronics.
Sure it is.. Just look at the latest powermac sales. Didnt Apple sell less than 220K Powermac units last Q? (IRC, 216K units)
Apple got less than 1% marketshare if you look at the computer market of computers with at least 1 PCI slot, less than 1 % marketshare if you look at the computer market with upgradeable graphics....
<strong>Apple got less than 1% marketshare if you look at the computer market of computers with at least 1 PCI slot, less than 1 % marketshare if you look at the computer market with upgradeable graphics....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hello Genius, the 2 category you mentioned above is the same category. Name any Mac that has upgradable Graphics card with no PCI Slot ??
Anyways really don't know where you got your statistics from.
<strong>
Hello Genius, the 2 category you mentioned above is the same category.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hello Genius, did claim anything else???
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[quote]<strong>
Anyways really don't know where you got your statistics from.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple Powermac sales: Less than 1 million units/year,actually:
937 K units..
( Source AAPL 10-K405, 12/21/2001 ) I dont know if this includes 12K units of PowerCube sales..
The combined PC market was ~128 million units last year ( Apple sold 3 087 K units, Source AAPL 10-K405, 12/21/2001 ):
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-835860.html"; target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-835860.html</a>;
About 25-27 million of those are notebooks:
<a href="http://news.com.com/2110-1040-272440.html"; target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2110-1040-272440.html</a>;
Now, you do the math..
<strong>Ptrash, I can't believe that about J & R. I haven't been there in almost a year, but the last time I was there the Mac section was a pretty decent size and there were a lot of customers there, playing with TiBooks, G4s, and iMacs (this was before the Dual-USB iBook, when not too many people cared about the iBook). I can't believe it, but I'll take your word.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The layout is bigger and better than previously, but it's more diificult to get to being on the fourth floor instead of street level.