Why does it have to be less than $300. I think everything that applenut said is pretty reasonable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't you always?
...seriously, I just don't think it actually costs that much. Remember the retail price on the SuperDrive was$999 and Apple put it in PowerMac w/o raising the price. According to your logic the price should have been like $4499.....
<strong>Dudes, the iPod is NOT a high-margin product., The drive alone costs $350.
I respect Apple. I agree that Apple needs to puta serious speed bump into ALL of its lineups in order to stay competitive. This is reality in the computer world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise.
Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]No, they TELL developers they pay that much for hardware...and BTW, three words: RETAIL PRICES MEAN SHIT. It costs them less than $300....it has to...maybe $280....no more. The $150 was just a shot in the dark..
What do they charge a developer for dual 800? <hr></blockquote>
one would think they would lie to the developers about cost but Apple doesn't.
The PowerMac G4/dual 800 is supposedly costs 2799. that's the developer discount.
why does the iPod have to cost less than what you think? Can you not except the fact that its an expensive device to manufacture at this time?
Toshiba makes the drive. feel free to research the OEM pricing for it. I'm not gonna waste time doing only to prove you wrong.
[quote]
...seriously, I just don't think it actually costs that much. Remember the retail price on the SuperDrive was$999 and Apple put it in PowerMac w/o raising the price. According to your logic the price should have been like $4499..... <hr></blockquote>
MY LOGIC? Apple probably gets the drive for 225-250. the rest of the iPod is not cheap either and is likely around the 319 developer "cost" price.
[quote]Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise. <hr></blockquote>
1.) there reaches a point where no matter how many you buy, cost simply won't go down anymore. especially when demand outstrips supply. the drive isn't going to magically go down from 300 bucks to 150 just because Apple bought several thousands.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product.
[quote]Yeah right applenut. The price of the iPod is ridiculous. You know damn well it cost Apple a lot less than this supposed $319 figure you pulled out of your @$$.<hr></blockquote>
1.) there reaches a point where no matter how many you buy, cost simply won't go down anymore. especially when demand outstrips supply. the drive isn't going to magically go down from 300 bucks to 150 just because Apple bought several thousands.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product.
1) Ok, well you make a good point there. But the questions is, where is "that" point of "no more discount". I still think they got it cheap.
2) Who says its inline with the cost of the product...you? Did Apple tell you?
Actually, if you remember back before AI went down there were quite a few times that me and applenut didn't agree at all. The only time I agree with him is when he's right and recently I feel he's been right about a lot of the things he's posted.
[quote] 1.) there reaches a point where no matter how many you buy, cost simply won't go down anymore. especially when demand outstrips supply. the drive isn't going to magically go down from 300 bucks to 150 just because Apple bought several thousands.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product. <hr></blockquote>
Well, if you read my post I said I can't find the link. You can have your opinion, I know what I read. Apple makes the highest margin off the iPod reguardless of what you think. I never specualted on what Apple pays for the drives, meerly specualting that it isn't ANYWHERE near what Joe Shmoe would pay thus leading to the profit margin on the iPod. Thank you, have a nice day
The drive mechanism is VERY scarce right now and extremely expensive as a result. They ipods cost a TON of money for apple to make, this is their lowest margin product. go find distributor prices for all of the parts, add in R&D and go figure. Dont be so dense.
2) Who says its inline with the cost of the product...you? Did Apple tell you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not telling you you are wrong, again read all my posts, I'm telling you what I read. You can believe it or not as I can't find the link or remember what site it was on. I don't have to defend an opinion based on something I read.
It does not matter if Apple's margins on the iPod are "RAPE" or just "SEXUAL ASSAULT"...
THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST MARGINS OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY - FACE IT ALREADY. Your continued support of their behavior is why the rest of us have to pay $399 for it! Even if their margins for THIS product are on the low(Apple)end, it is still MORE THAN IT SHOULD BE!
Is this a hard concept to understand? Do you guys even you at the financials from quarter to quarter?
The developer prices are almost always exactly 20% off list. These prices are NOT their cost -- they've never said so, and it doesn't make any sense for their margins on everything to be EXACTLY 20%. On the low-margin products (iMac, iBook), it's probably close, but that's about it.
The only thing that I remember not having a developer discount was the Cinema Display when priced at $4000. That probably indicates that they weren't making anything on it at the time.
Their cost for the iPod is most likely less than $319. How much less, I haven't a clue.
I say let 'em rake in the cash. It just means better Macs for us.
OK, I have to throw in my 2 cents (very little profit margin). I am in the contract manufacturing industry, the company i work for makes everything from multi-million dollar destructive electron tools and x-ray equipment for microprocessor analysis to networking equipment, lotto ticket machines, etc.... I've worked in estimating (determining how much we can build and sell a product for), buying (self explanatory), and currently documentation (make the manuals to show our employees how to build the stuff).
While I won't pretend to know how much Apple gets the drives for (which will be based on an agreement to buy a certain qty over a certain period of time) or the cost of the LCD, case chips, etc.... You are all overlooking the overhead costs!!!! R&D is pricey!!! I would assume initial tooling and setup shouldn't be that bad due to the volume they probably contracted for. I'm assuming the R&D is pretty substantial. I'll agree that most company's make a practice of overpricing when a product is released to try and recoup R&D within the first 6 months to 1 year, but we don't know in this situation.
Someone put a list of known components in this device and I will search our pricing database and try to get a reasonable estimate.
Give me the following:
Manufacturer name and part number for the HD, chips, and LCD, battery etc...
Great effort, Slacker, but reading the NAME of the thread, he the man:
[quote]Originally posted by Dali:
<strong>
It does not matter if Apple's margins on the iPod are "RAPE" or just "SEXUAL ASSAULT"... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST MARGINS OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY - FACE IT ALREADY. Your continued support of their behavior is why the rest of us have to pay $399 for it! [...]
----Yes, I love Apple.
----I just understand the illusion in front of me</strong><hr></blockquote>
And never worry about the detail too much. Just point the BIG GUN into the right direction! And I still think: If Apple wants our RESPECT, well...they will have to make products which are meeting our needs. Not our Nerds (the gadget freaks etc.)
Well, back to the topic at hand, respect for Apple:
I nearly 100% agree with SDW2001:
[quote]
1) Release a G5 PowerMac in excess of 1.4 GHZ with DDR RAM and 266mhz bus. <hr></blockquote>
Exactly. And this G5 or whatever must not just match a Wintel in speed, it must surpass the Wintel. Because if a Mac costs 3x as much, it should perform better, not worse.
[quote]2) Release a flat panel GHZ iMac with an Apollo G4 and the top model with a SuperDrive (well I can live w/o the superdrive)<hr></blockquote>
Agreed, except I could forgive Apple for a superdriveless iMac. But a G4 for sure (1 GHz+), it is imperative that Apple expands the Altivec user base, so that more developers begin to embrace Altivec. Altivec needs to like Apple's holy grail. All Macs should use Altivec.
As for the iMac display, it should be a 15-16" WIDESCREEN LCD display. The iMac must never fall behind in display technology again. And the size is important because for the current iMac, the single most common reason for consumers deciding against the iMac is it's display size. It's too frickin small!!! Get a clue, Apple! WTF does Apple think larger monitors are selling so well for?
[quote]3 Bump ibook speeds too 900mhz or 1 GHZ. <hr></blockquote>
Yep. The iBook is great except it needs a 14" display and a 1 GHz G3, with a faster motherboard. But Apple's going in the right direction with it, because it's pricing is sane. Somebody must have been passing out freeThorazine at Apple the day they came up with the iBook's price.
[quote]4) Lower iPod price to $249 (Sorry, I laughed my ass off at $399....cool as it is and all)<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, no sh!t. Obviously Apple doesn't pay the same as consumers for the iPod's HD. They purchased iPod's components in bulk at wholesale prices. With the economic downturn Apple probably got a bitchin' deal on them.
Furthermore, Apple's marketing of the iPod proves that its margins are stratospheric. Apple didn't even bother with a Windows version, meaning that they don't care about high volume sales. This can only mean that they don't NEED high volume sales to turn a phat profit.
[quote]5) Ship a combo drive PBG4 with a 1GHZ+ G4. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, slip an Apollo 1 GHz into the PBG4, and boost it's display resolution, and give it a respectable GPU chipset.
[quote]6) Lower PM Prices to 1299, 2199 and 2999. <hr></blockquote>
No, these aren't low enough prices.
$999 should be the low end powermac. So,
$999 G5 1.2
$1499 G5 1.4
$2299 G5 1.6
$2899 G5 dual 1.6
Or something like that. The low end powermac needs to compete with Wintel boxes...$1699 is such a joke for the current low end PMG4. lol.
[quote]7) Offer and Airport Card standard on all PM's. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah.
[quote]8) No shipping pro model should have less than 256MB of RAM. Top model should have 1GB. <hr></blockquote>
How about 512 MB instead of 1 GB? It's just that many people would NEVER use so much RAM. But for the lowend, 256 MB RAM should be minimum for sure. It's the smallest amount to use with OS X feeling comfortable.
Finally, I'd like to see Apple begin offering education customers some real discounts like they used to back in the early 90s. Currently the discount is more symbolic than anything.,,but Apple needs to bust into edu and take it over, again. Unless students can afford macs, Apple's future is uncertain. Students make habits that will determine their buying patterns for the rest of their lives. So Apple should be selling computers to students very near their cost. Accept small profit margins, with the understanding that the current user base is being enlarged, and the future user base is being guaranteed.
Most of this sh!t will never happen, so actually this is a really depressing post. Awwwh, hell!
Comments
<strong>
Why does it have to be less than $300. I think everything that applenut said is pretty reasonable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't you always?
...seriously, I just don't think it actually costs that much. Remember the retail price on the SuperDrive was$999 and Apple put it in PowerMac w/o raising the price. According to your logic the price should have been like $4499.....
<strong>Dudes, the iPod is NOT a high-margin product., The drive alone costs $350.
I respect Apple. I agree that Apple needs to puta serious speed bump into ALL of its lineups in order to stay competitive. This is reality in the computer world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise.
<strong>
Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. It will come down next year....
What do they charge a developer for dual 800? <hr></blockquote>
one would think they would lie to the developers about cost but Apple doesn't.
The PowerMac G4/dual 800 is supposedly costs 2799. that's the developer discount.
why does the iPod have to cost less than what you think? Can you not except the fact that its an expensive device to manufacture at this time?
Toshiba makes the drive. feel free to research the OEM pricing for it. I'm not gonna waste time doing only to prove you wrong.
[quote]
...seriously, I just don't think it actually costs that much. Remember the retail price on the SuperDrive was$999 and Apple put it in PowerMac w/o raising the price. According to your logic the price should have been like $4499..... <hr></blockquote>
MY LOGIC? Apple probably gets the drive for 225-250. the rest of the iPod is not cheap either and is likely around the 319 developer "cost" price.
[quote]Uh yes it is. I can't find the link (I've been looking for it) They bought shitloads of the HDs so they are a lot cheaper plus they are wholesale not retail. The iPod id one if not they biggest profit margin ratio product Apple has. NOT $ wise, but MARGIN wise. <hr></blockquote>
1.) there reaches a point where no matter how many you buy, cost simply won't go down anymore. especially when demand outstrips supply. the drive isn't going to magically go down from 300 bucks to 150 just because Apple bought several thousands.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product.
[quote]Yeah right applenut. The price of the iPod is ridiculous. You know damn well it cost Apple a lot less than this supposed $319 figure you pulled out of your @$$.<hr></blockquote>
above applies to you too.
1.) there reaches a point where no matter how many you buy, cost simply won't go down anymore. especially when demand outstrips supply. the drive isn't going to magically go down from 300 bucks to 150 just because Apple bought several thousands.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product.
1) Ok, well you make a good point there. But the questions is, where is "that" point of "no more discount". I still think they got it cheap.
2) Who says its inline with the cost of the product...you? Did Apple tell you?
<strong>
Don't you always?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, if you remember back before AI went down there were quite a few times that me and applenut didn't agree at all. The only time I agree with him is when he's right and recently I feel he's been right about a lot of the things he's posted.
2.) some facts to backup your statement of the iPod having the highest margin percentage wise would be helpful. I've provided my "facts" based on the developer pricing which is normally inline with cost of the product. <hr></blockquote>
Well, if you read my post I said I can't find the link. You can have your opinion, I know what I read. Apple makes the highest margin off the iPod reguardless of what you think. I never specualted on what Apple pays for the drives, meerly specualting that it isn't ANYWHERE near what Joe Shmoe would pay thus leading to the profit margin on the iPod. Thank you, have a nice day
The drive mechanism is VERY scarce right now and extremely expensive as a result. They ipods cost a TON of money for apple to make, this is their lowest margin product. go find distributor prices for all of the parts, add in R&D and go figure. Dont be so dense.
BTW, I just think EmAn is such a little cutie.
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
<strong>Applenut writes:
2) Who says its inline with the cost of the product...you? Did Apple tell you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point
<strong>
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not telling you you are wrong, again read all my posts, I'm telling you what I read. You can believe it or not as I can't find the link or remember what site it was on. I don't have to defend an opinion based on something I read.
BTW, I just think EmAn is such a little cutie.
<hr></blockquote>
Yep, that's me, a little cutie.
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: EmAn ]</p>
Right now, if Apple doesn't break 1GHZ with ALL four of its comps than to the pubic it is a ****ing joke. <hr></blockquote>
Everything to my pubic is a ****ing joke. :cool:
- Pook
It does not matter if Apple's margins on the iPod are "RAPE" or just "SEXUAL ASSAULT"...
THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST MARGINS OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY - FACE IT ALREADY. Your continued support of their behavior is why the rest of us have to pay $399 for it! Even if their margins for THIS product are on the low(Apple)end, it is still MORE THAN IT SHOULD BE!
Is this a hard concept to understand? Do you guys even you at the financials from quarter to quarter?
----Yes, I love Apple.
----I just understand the illusion in front of me
if cost is really $319 for Apple then what margins do you expect them to have? 30 bucks? be real.
it's their desktops that are a ripoff.
the iPod will come down as the components come down in cost.
BTW, I looked all over for OEM sales info on the drive. nothing. just the $399 figure. the 2GB version costs $299.
The only thing that I remember not having a developer discount was the Cinema Display when priced at $4000. That probably indicates that they weren't making anything on it at the time.
Their cost for the iPod is most likely less than $319. How much less, I haven't a clue.
I say let 'em rake in the cash.
Alex
While I won't pretend to know how much Apple gets the drives for (which will be based on an agreement to buy a certain qty over a certain period of time) or the cost of the LCD, case chips, etc.... You are all overlooking the overhead costs!!!! R&D is pricey!!! I would assume initial tooling and setup shouldn't be that bad due to the volume they probably contracted for. I'm assuming the R&D is pretty substantial. I'll agree that most company's make a practice of overpricing when a product is released to try and recoup R&D within the first 6 months to 1 year, but we don't know in this situation.
Someone put a list of known components in this device and I will search our pricing database and try to get a reasonable estimate.
Give me the following:
Manufacturer name and part number for the HD, chips, and LCD, battery etc...
Give me that info and I'll get back to you.
[quote]Originally posted by Dali:
<strong>
It does not matter if Apple's margins on the iPod are "RAPE" or just "SEXUAL ASSAULT"... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST MARGINS OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY - FACE IT ALREADY. Your continued support of their behavior is why the rest of us have to pay $399 for it! [...]
----Yes, I love Apple.
----I just understand the illusion in front of me</strong><hr></blockquote>
And never worry about the detail too much. Just point the BIG GUN into the right direction! And I still think: If Apple wants our RESPECT, well...they will have to make products which are meeting our needs. Not our Nerds (the gadget freaks etc.)
TWD
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: SuperKoch ]</p>
Could anyone please direct me to any site or link that would enlighten me about Apple's profit margins?
I have heard a lot of conjecture, no facts, I would like to know just how high they are even if they are relatively low.
I nearly 100% agree with SDW2001:
[quote]
1) Release a G5 PowerMac in excess of 1.4 GHZ with DDR RAM and 266mhz bus. <hr></blockquote>
Exactly. And this G5 or whatever must not just match a Wintel in speed, it must surpass the Wintel. Because if a Mac costs 3x as much, it should perform better, not worse.
[quote]2) Release a flat panel GHZ iMac with an Apollo G4 and the top model with a SuperDrive (well I can live w/o the superdrive)<hr></blockquote>
Agreed, except I could forgive Apple for a superdriveless iMac. But a G4 for sure (1 GHz+), it is imperative that Apple expands the Altivec user base, so that more developers begin to embrace Altivec. Altivec needs to like Apple's holy grail. All Macs should use Altivec.
As for the iMac display, it should be a 15-16" WIDESCREEN LCD display. The iMac must never fall behind in display technology again. And the size is important because for the current iMac, the single most common reason for consumers deciding against the iMac is it's display size. It's too frickin small!!! Get a clue, Apple! WTF does Apple think larger monitors are selling so well for?
[quote]3 Bump ibook speeds too 900mhz or 1 GHZ. <hr></blockquote>
Yep. The iBook is great except it needs a 14" display and a 1 GHz G3, with a faster motherboard. But Apple's going in the right direction with it, because it's pricing is sane. Somebody must have been passing out freeThorazine at Apple the day they came up with the iBook's price.
[quote]4) Lower iPod price to $249 (Sorry, I laughed my ass off at $399....cool as it is and all)<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, no sh!t. Obviously Apple doesn't pay the same as consumers for the iPod's HD. They purchased iPod's components in bulk at wholesale prices. With the economic downturn Apple probably got a bitchin' deal on them.
Furthermore, Apple's marketing of the iPod proves that its margins are stratospheric. Apple didn't even bother with a Windows version, meaning that they don't care about high volume sales. This can only mean that they don't NEED high volume sales to turn a phat profit.
[quote]5) Ship a combo drive PBG4 with a 1GHZ+ G4. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, slip an Apollo 1 GHz into the PBG4, and boost it's display resolution, and give it a respectable GPU chipset.
[quote]6) Lower PM Prices to 1299, 2199 and 2999. <hr></blockquote>
No, these aren't low enough prices.
$999 should be the low end powermac. So,
$999 G5 1.2
$1499 G5 1.4
$2299 G5 1.6
$2899 G5 dual 1.6
Or something like that. The low end powermac needs to compete with Wintel boxes...$1699 is such a joke for the current low end PMG4. lol.
[quote]7) Offer and Airport Card standard on all PM's. <hr></blockquote>
Yeah.
[quote]8) No shipping pro model should have less than 256MB of RAM. Top model should have 1GB. <hr></blockquote>
How about 512 MB instead of 1 GB? It's just that many people would NEVER use so much RAM. But for the lowend, 256 MB RAM should be minimum for sure. It's the smallest amount to use with OS X feeling comfortable.
Finally, I'd like to see Apple begin offering education customers some real discounts like they used to back in the early 90s. Currently the discount is more symbolic than anything.,,but Apple needs to bust into edu and take it over, again. Unless students can afford macs, Apple's future is uncertain. Students make habits that will determine their buying patterns for the rest of their lives. So Apple should be selling computers to students very near their cost. Accept small profit margins, with the understanding that the current user base is being enlarged, and the future user base is being guaranteed.
Most of this sh!t will never happen, so actually this is a really depressing post. Awwwh, hell!
[