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  • Reply 21 of 39
    tigerwoods99tigerwoods99 Posts: 2,633member
    Hehe, for real though. But I think Apple does put off some product releases when they could be done seriously. That's why you could say I'm right and I'm wrong.



    Redesign? Hmm that would be cool, but I wouldn't think they would have one yet. I might want one for college.
  • Reply 22 of 39
    mithralmithral Posts: 68member
    [quote]Originally posted by TigerWoods99:

    <strong>Hehe, for real though. But I think Apple does put off some product releases when they could be done seriously. That's why you could say I'm right and I'm wrong.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    We might see new Ti's and iBooks in the coming month and a half - you're right, Apple is probably sitting on some feature bumps. Why?



    Simple. If they introduced new books at MWT, two things would have happened:

    <ol type="1">[*] Jozwiak's (or whatever his name is) personal credibility would be shot. He'd officially be a liar. Nobody would ever interview him again, none of his announcements would be taken seriously, because people would assume that he's not privy to the real information.[*] Apple, on the whole, would lose all kinds of credibility. If rumor site speculation got out of control and expectations for an expo were flying unreasonably high (I know, it's never happened before, but imagine if you will...), they couldn't preemptively warn like they did now at MWT or at MWParis last year. The very denial would fuel more rampant speculation. Wall Street wouldn't believe them, more to the point, and the stock would suffer. Steve would be ousted, and we'd be back to 32 product lines. (Okay, maybe that's taking it a little far.) In short, Apple would lose the ability to moderate media and consumer expectations. Bad idea.[/list=a]



    So, in the final analysis, better to sit on a rev for four weeks, intro a new monitor and some iPod stuff. Spread the love over a few trade shows. Above all, keep people talking about Apple.



    [quote]Originally posted by Amorph:

    <strong>

    The PowerBook is old enough now that Apple isn't going to refresh it. They're going to redesign it.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I disagree.



    If you think about it, the Ti has undergone only ONE revision since introduced over a year ago, and that was little more than a glorified feature bump. (Actually, scratch the "glorified" part - it was obviously a stop-gap update. And, before anyone says it, the combo drive addition doesn't count.)



    Higher res screen? Yes. But I don't see them changing the enclosure. It's still the most visible laptop around - you don't redesign something if it's still hip.



    -mithral
  • Reply 23 of 39
    bradbowerbradbower Posts: 1,068member
    I was really expecting laptop updates too. I remember hearing "no new cpus" but I took that meaning no new CPUs, which certainly wouldn't stop them from releasing simply updated or speedbumped CPUs. But I guess I was wrong... too bad. People are getting restless. Myself included.



    But it'll happen soon enough.



    And no, there will be no huge "redesign" of the Ti. At most a little "update" such as the 22" ACD -&gt; 23" ACD (high res, larger/faster specs, updated look w/chrome Apple logo).



    [ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: bradbower ]</p>
  • Reply 24 of 39
    glurxglurx Posts: 1,031member
    [quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:

    <strong>Apple totally missed out on a great opportunity to expand their market share. Alas, rather than keep the iMac prices down and move larger volumes, Apple has chosen to sell smaller volumes of iMacs at higher prices. An incredibly stupid move, since market share should be Apple's #1 priority right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Precisely. This is the most boneheaded & shortsighted move by Apple since before the Second Coming Of Jobs?.
  • Reply 25 of 39
    tarbashtarbash Posts: 278member
    They won't redesign the enclosure, they will evolve it. Like moving from the Wallstreet -&gt; Lombard PowerBooks. Structurally it will probably be a lot more durable, scratchproof, and address many customers' concerns about casing. Apple does listen most of the time.
  • Reply 26 of 39
    thuh freakthuh freak Posts: 2,664member
    [quote] blame ... bad management at Apple. <hr></blockquote>



    that sounds like heresy. he must be a witch. lets burn him.



    i definitely don't think the ti will get a redesign before the pMac. All they've done to the pMacs is change its color [ignoring, of course, the g4 inside instead of g3, and the other innards]. It's just as great looking as ever, but I'd love to see some new, cool-looking ones. I don't have any good suggestions for a design chg tho.



    also, i don't think marketshare should b priority one. they are a corporation, and if they can't turn a profit, wall street burns them. then they could bust (or worse yet: get bought by disney). 1st and foremost should always be making money. 2nd should be increasing their revenue. #2 would be helped by an increased mrktshare, but also by squeezing the current customers for all they'll go for. I don't think anyone will turn on Apple in total disgust and horror just b/c theres an extra benjamin in the price of an iMac.



    god save the queen.
  • Reply 27 of 39
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    [quote]Originally posted by Mithral:

    <strong>



    [I said the Ti will be revised, not updated]



    I disagree.



    If you think about it, the Ti has undergone only ONE revision since introduced over a year ago, and that was little more than a glorified feature bump. (Actually, scratch the "glorified" part - it was obviously a stop-gap update. And, before anyone says it, the combo drive addition doesn't count.)



    Higher res screen? Yes. But I don't see them changing the enclosure. It's still the most visible laptop around - you don't redesign something if it's still hip.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I meant they would redesign the computer, not (necessarily) the enclosure. In other words, they can try sticking faster bits onto the current motherboard or roll out a whole new one. Whether or not the case changes significantly it's still a redesign. Think Lombard -&gt; Pismo.



    I wouldn't rule out some modifications to the enclosure, either. It probably won't change radically (again, think Lombard -&gt; Pismo) because the current design is a hit, but it just might accomodate a tray loading drive instead of a slot loader, it might get a wee bit thicker (but not more than 1-2 mm) to accomodate a new SuperDrive, that sort of thing. It might also have gained some more structural integrity.
  • Reply 28 of 39
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    [quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:

    <strong>How about some evidence on the iMac's profit margins?



    If the iMac's 15" LCD display costs too much to keep the iMac's price down, then we should see price increases on other 15" LCD displays on the market. How about some evidence?



    I think the price hike has NOTHING to do with manufacturing costs, and EVERYTHING to do with the low supply. Since Apple cannot build enough iMacs, they are trying to make up for lost profits by increasing prices. Component shortages are to blame, along with bad management at Apple.



    Apple totally missed out on a great opportunity to expand their market share. Alas, rather than keep the iMac prices down and move larger volumes, Apple has chosen to sell smaller volumes of iMacs at higher prices. An incredibly stupid move, since market share should be Apple's #1 priority right now.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I disagree -- the increasing price of RAM alone is enough to put pressure on Apple's margin on the iMac, and there are a lot of other components that go into these machines. If they are supply constrained (and no reason to doubt it -- just look at how unique the new iMac is), they couldn't possibly use the iMac to increase market share so maintaining their margin is absolutely critical in order to keep their quarterly revenue up. This quarter and the next one are going to be rough for Apple because they are in a major product transition cycle and the economy is still fairly weak. Things will hopefully be looking up post-MWNY, but its going to be a rough go of it until then.



    <strong> [quote]

    What I would like to know is, what does someone do if they want a desktop Mac, but don't want so spend more than $1000-$1200? Apparently Apple doesn't want their business. And no, the CRT iMac is not an option, it is so outdated and pathetic nobody wants them.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You could always buy used.
  • Reply 29 of 39
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    This is one time when JYD is absolutely right. The price increases Apple is talking about are specious at best.





    Myth 1



    Case study in LCD prices. THIS MONTH, retail prices for 15" and 17" LCD panels has FALLEN about 10%. Based on what you say? A number of Toronto area retailers are selling a half dozen different 15 LCD panels at 500 Canadian (about 330 USD) The very same retailers have, for the past few weeks, been selling 3 different 17" LCD panels for 999, 999, and 1049 CANADIAN (or about 659 USD). In december, these panels had similar prices after mail in rebates of 100 dollars. Today these represent the regular retail price! THIS IS A DECREASE! If you want to look at component costs, ready to use glass+circuitry panes are available to system makers for 180 per 15" panel. Add 25% increase and you get a $45 jump. But the increase is HIGHLY suspicious because EVERYWHERE else LCD retail prices have dropped.



    Myth 2



    On to RAM prices. Yes, the wholesale price has gone up, however, retail prices remain quite low. $60 US for a 256MB stick, readily available from a number of online retailers. However, wholesale prices are still in the single digits, a 25% increase in RAM amounts to peanuts.



    Myth 3



    iMac is not now, nor has it every been, a low margin product. Apple has more room to absorb a component cost increase than any other computer maker and still turn a respectable profit (even on iMacs). The absolute most that LCD and RAM increases could have added (or will add for the forseeable future) is 50 dollars US. If there weren't at least a $150-200US margin on the iMacs, they wouldn't have been released, period.



    The cost of making an iMac didn't suddenly jump 25%, only the price on two parts (one of them very inconsequential overall) jumped. Total component cost probably only jumped 2-3%. Margins are already a lot higher than that, especially considering the majority of iMac sales are direct sales with no retail cut to be taken out.
  • Reply 30 of 39
    mattyjmattyj Posts: 898member
    Perhaps we will see G5 laptops introduced at the same time as its desktop counter-part. From what I understand an overhaul of the TiBook is due now, so maybe this will happen at MWNY in July?
  • Reply 31 of 39
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,393member
    [quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:

    <strong>



    What I would like to know is, what does someone do if they want a desktop Mac, but don't want so spend more than $1000-$1200? Apparently Apple doesn't want their business. And no, the CRT iMac is not an option, it is so outdated and pathetic nobody wants them.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I agree completely. Apple needs to continue to offer a low cost computer.

    When the time comes for me to buy my kids a computer, I'm planning on spending less than $1000.00 on it. Personally, I don't care if it has a CRT or LCD just as long as its a mac and X runs fast on it.
  • Reply 32 of 39
    ihxoihxo Posts: 562member
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>



    I agree completely. Apple needs to continue to offer a low cost computer.

    When the time comes for me to buy my kids a computer, I'm planning on spending less than $1000.00 on it. Personally, I don't care if it has a CRT or LCD just as long as its a mac and X runs fast on it.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I agree with you completely, why is there no $1000-$1200 price point computer ?? we need that, no one need those $799-$999 iMac those are not $1000-$1200 we need $1000-$1200 !!!!! APPLE either you in crease those iMac's price from $799-$999 to $1000-$1200 otherwise we'll never buy a Mac again
  • Reply 33 of 39
    airslufairsluf Posts: 1,861member
  • Reply 34 of 39
    ihxoihxo Posts: 562member
    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>Myth 1



    Case study in LCD prices. THIS MONTH, retail prices for 15" and 17" LCD panels has FALLEN about 10%. Based on what you say? A number of Toronto area retailers are selling a half dozen different 15 LCD panels at 500 Canadian (about 330 USD) The very same retailers have, for the past few weeks, been selling 3 different 17" LCD panels for 999, 999, and 1049 CANADIAN (or about 659 USD). In december, these panels had similar prices after mail in rebates of 100 dollars. Today these represent the regular retail price! THIS IS A DECREASE! If you want to look at component costs, ready to use glass+circuitry panes are available to system makers for 180 per 15" panel. Add 25% increase and you get a $45 jump. But the increase is HIGHLY suspicious because EVERYWHERE else LCD retail prices have dropped.



    Myth 2



    On to RAM prices. Yes, the wholesale price has gone up, however, retail prices remain quite low. $60 US for a 256MB stick, readily available from a number of online retailers. However, wholesale prices are still in the single digits, a 25% increase in RAM amounts to peanuts.



    Myth 3



    iMac is not now, nor has it every been, a low margin product. Apple has more room to absorb a component cost increase than any other computer maker and still turn a respectable profit (even on iMacs). The absolute most that LCD and RAM increases could have added (or will add for the forseeable future) is 50 dollars US. If there weren't at least a $150-200US margin on the iMacs, they wouldn't have been released, period.



    The cost of making an iMac didn't suddenly jump 25%, only the price on two parts (one of them very inconsequential overall) jumped. Total component cost probably only jumped 2-3%. Margins are already a lot higher than that, especially considering the majority of iMac sales are direct sales with no retail cut to be taken out.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I'll try to answer your Myths,



    1) LCD price did increase, according to what I see on buy.com the price of KDS (The cheapest) LCD monitor rose from under $300 to $326.47, here goes about 30-40 dollars



    2) The SDRam price of 256 MB Used to be under 20 dollars, now those PC133 SDRAM are selling at about 50-60 dollars if you are lucky you can get some at 4x dollars. here goes 40-30 bucks.



    3) The iMac is a low margine product it's not a Myth, it's a low margine for retailer and low margine for apple. You go on the street and find ANY LCD AIO computer that's selling for less than $1399, even Gateway's crappy Profile PC is selling for 1699.



    [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ihxo ]</p>
  • Reply 35 of 39
    inciinci Posts: 17member
    [quote]Originally posted by ihxo:

    <strong>



    I'll try to answer your Myths,



    1) LCD price did increase, according to what I see on buy.com the price of KDS (The cheapest) LCD monitor rose from under $300 to $326.47, here goes about 30-40 dollars



    2) The SDRam price of 256 MB Used to be under 20 dollars, now those PC133 SDRAM are selling at about 50-60 dollars if you are lucky you can get some at 4x dollars. here goes 40-30 bucks.



    3) The iMac is a low margine product it's not a Myth, it's a low margine for retailer and low margine for apple. You go on the street and find ANY LCD AIO computer that's selling for less than $1399, even Gateway's crappy Profile PC is selling for 1699.



    [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: ihxo ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    iMacs profit margin 20%

    Power macs 30%

    Claims of iMac price increase due to its low profit margin is absurd.
  • Reply 36 of 39
    ihxoihxo Posts: 562member
    [quote]Originally posted by inci:

    <strong>



    iMacs profit margin 20%

    Power macs 30%

    Claims of iMac price increase due to its low profit margin is absurd.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    eerr.. just one question, where did you get those 20% 30% from ?
  • Reply 37 of 39
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    [quote]Originally posted by AirSluf:

    <strong>Matsu do you understand anything about economics? You regularly get beat up for taking shortcuts in your logic, why continue?



    Those prices you see on sale at your local dealer were for products that were manufactured some time ago with VERY fat margins. Not to mention the mark-ups that normally hit when the currency conversions occur that also give room to absorb component price fluctations. Watch the prices in about 6 weeks or so, then figure it all out all over again.



    Originally I read iMac margins were on the order of $100. That doesn't leave much room for component price rises before losses hit. The rise in ram probably accounts for $25 or so of that. The LCD is the single most expensive component, so +25% on a LCD would eat up the rest if the component started in the neighborhood of $240. That original $240 is a fairly reasonable estimate given the prices of current dumb LCD monitors by mfgrs other than Apple. It also leaves plenty of room for those other manufacturers to absorb rises and still break even at a $399 price point for a dumb monitor.



    Does anyone know what the current ACTUAL wholsale supplier cost is on a 15" bare LCD?</strong><hr></blockquote>





    Yes, the actual wholesale supplier cost was widely published on the internet a few months back. 180 USD. Glass and circuitry. Just needs an enclosure.



    There are no flaws in my logic. Two months ago I needed a rebate to get LCD prices that I can now get first hand. Any increases in LCD cost are absolutely minimal. So much so, that a manufacturer selling a 15 or 17" LCD for 500-1000 CANADIAN (325 to 650 USD) can HOLD or LOWER the price on that item (which is considerably less overall than an iMac) and still make a neat profit. I can assure you (now that you know the cost) that there is more profit for Apple in the sale of an iMac than there is for any manufacturer in the sale of a single 15" LCD panel. Less as a percentage, sure, but as you can see Apple isn't paying retail price for bare glass and circuitry.



    Currency conversions don't mean squat. We pay more for everything because our dollar is only worth between 63 and 65 cents. And, in most cases, the exchange is either exact, or slightly more favorable on the American side.



    RAM. 60 dollars (USD) or thereabouts from a number of online retailers. But if you care to stroll into any neighborhood mom and pop PC shop you'll find that for less too. Most of the Toronto area retailers I talk to will sell me a 256MB stick for 69-72 CANADIAN. ($90) from big retailers) Go figure. I guess Apple are the only ones paying more for this stuff. In any event, that was the place to cut back, if anywhere. Drop all the RAM configurations to half, and let us go out and buy RAM cheaper than Apple seems to be able to



    NO other computer makers are going to raise anything. Companies will hold prices on machines with a lot less margin to give than the iMac, and still turn a profit.





    Wake up.
  • Reply 38 of 39
    On the new iMac being a lower margin product



    From Fred Anderson's phone call after 1st QTR earnings:



    In fact, one of Apple's new tactics is one that the company has sometimes snubbed in the past: lowering gross margin to sell more units. Anderson admits that the gross margins on new iMac for the March quarter will be lower than the gross margins for the old iMac.
  • Reply 39 of 39
    ihxoihxo Posts: 562member
    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>

    Yes, the actual wholesale supplier cost was widely published on the internet a few months back. 180 USD. Glass and circuitry. Just needs an enclosure.



    RAM. 60 dollars (USD) or thereabouts from a number of online retailers. But if you care to stroll into any neighborhood mom and pop PC shop you'll find that for less too. Most of the Toronto area retailers I talk to will sell me a 256MB stick for 69-72 CANADIAN. ($90) from big retailers) Go figure. I guess Apple are the only ones paying more for this stuff. In any event, that was the place to cut back, if anywhere. Drop all the RAM configurations to half, and let us go out and buy RAM cheaper than Apple seems to be able to



    NO other computer makers are going to raise anything. Companies will hold prices on machines with a lot less margin to give than the iMac, and still turn a profit.





    Wake up.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    HayMatsu, Thanks for waking me up, From what you said those ppl who are selling 3xx dollars LCD monitor are having like 100% profit Margin !? as the barebone LCD monitor is only $180, and most people are elling 15 inch LCD monitor at the range of 330-500, are they having 100% to 200% profit margin ??



    And gateway is selling their GatewayProfile Pentium 3 computer at $1699. I wonder what profit margin they got more than 50% !?



    hmm either your arguments are totally wrong or the rest of the world are filled with greedy people and you are the only normal.
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